R+L=J v.90

[Bran17]

Gosh that's a bit extreme! Prepared to be disappointed then, would be my advice. I argue though, that if you didn't come up with R+L=J yourself, it's hard to say that it was too perfect so as to be contrived. It was a well concealed mystery and I'm surprised you'd be so disappointed about it.

Yes, I'm prepared. :(

But that's exactly why I think it's contrived: there are clues, but Jon's appearance(I know he doesn't need to seem like a Targaryen to be one, but still), Ned allowing Cat to resent his "son" and the Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna triangle make the whole "Jon is legitimate" thing seem really, really unlikely.

[stateofdissipation]

Beginning of GoT: Jon was fourteen years old. Dany was thirteen year old.

Jon was born nine months before Dany.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert's_Rebellion

Jon was born at the end of the war in 283. Dany was born in 284.

OK

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.---GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

[Bran17]

A lot of people have feelings on this. But I'll give my own. I don't think Jon will become king BECAUSE of his heritage, but rather he'll be elected by Great Council and due to his efforts in the War for the Dawn. I think his heritage matters to him personally and to Dany, so that she'll bend the knee to the rightful King, but for Westeros it's going to come down to his deeds against the Others.

I think exactly the same, but I still don't like it.

Jon was never interested in becoming an authority, but he's going to be King 'cause people want him to, just like he's became LC. I hate to use that word, but it's such a cliche. :crying:

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

OK

probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

They never really said what month Jon and Dany were born in.

If this theory is true, Jon will be Dany's nephew.

[Bran17]

I think he's very carefully laid the clues. There is a great thread or two about Jon the hidden prince. (someone find it faster then I can maybe??) But there have been a ton of clues but most of the time, people read right over them.

ETA: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

There's part of it

Thanks for the link!

I think I already read it months ago, but I'm going to read it again, anyway. :cool4:

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I have a link to another one. R+L=J

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, I'm prepared. :(

But that's exactly why I think it's contrived: there are clues, but Jon's appearance(I know he doesn't need to seem like a Targaryen to be one, but still), Ned allowing Cat to resent his "son" and the Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna triangle make the whole "Jon is legitimate" thing seem really, really unlikely.

... What does his appearance have to do with his legitimacy?

But GRRM isn't actually subverting all the tropes.

This too. I think a lot of people, whether they like Jon or not, may be disappointed in how the story unfolds because they erroneously think that GRRM is much more about subversion than he really is. Jon's character is, barring some out-of-left-field development (which is possible, sure), being played pretty straight, to the point where Campbell's monomyth hero's journey is a recognizable blueprint for Jon's arc.

[honeyed chicken]

Some art to please the heart :-)

http://wolverrain.deviantart.com/art/lyanna-and-rhaegar-292082345

Ooo! Eva!

But the guy is as wrong as it is possible to be.

Also, this is a character from a different franchise, but wouldn't she make a splendid Lyanna?http://ygrain33.deviantart.com/art/My-Name-is-Jack-443600083

I don't know this actress. She's certainly gorgeous.

All the actresses and illustrations of Lyanna that I've seen lack the wolf blood look that Lyanna had - the wildness. Maybe something like Lindsay Vonn as a brunette? Or Vonn's partner in crime, Julia Mancuso

Or Tina Maze*

Could definitely see Lyanna as a downhill skier. Winter is coming so get your skis out! ;)

*Obviously none of these three are actors, but to me they capture the spirit of Lyanna more.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This too. I think a lot of people, whether they like Jon or not, may be disappointed in how the story unfolds because they erroneously think that GRRM is much more about subversion than he really is. Jon's character is, barring some out-of-left-field development (which is possible, sure) being played pretty straight.

This issue is one of the points I have been trying to make as well. Of course GRRM is not going to subvert all tropes--that would result in a very unsatisfying series. The example I have given before is to imagine that GoT was the entire series--no series, just the one book. Imagine the book ends basically the way it does--it undermines the trope, the main character (Ned) dies because he is good and is killed by evil people, the evil teenager, Joffrey, is left in power, the teenage daughter, Sansa, is left to his mercy, none of the perpetrators are brought to justice, etc. Sure tropes would be undermined, but no one would like the book. People liked the book because they knew it was a set-up--so it surprised people and made them want to see how things would turn out. But as an entire self-contained book--very few people would have liked it. So early on it is easy to subvert tropes--there is still time to have the more traditionally satisfying ending. In order to have a story that people really enjoy in the end, certain tropes need to be followed. GRRM is not the trope underminer that he purports to be--nor would we want him to be.

[BearQueen87]

... What does his appearance have to do with his legitimacy?

Just to throw something in regards to Jon's appearance since it was brought up in the quote Apple Martini quoted...but in the graphic novel, Jon and Rhaegar are given some pretty similar feature (nose for one). So it's there in canon, just in a different medium than we are used to.

This too. I think a lot of people, whether they like Jon or not, may be disappointed in how the story unfolds because they erroneously think that GRRM is much more about subversion than he really is. Jon's character is, barring some out-of-left-field development (which is possible, sure), being played pretty straight, to the point where Campbell's monomyth hero's journey is a recognizable blueprint for Jon's arc.

And this is my question for people who think it's too cliche: if GRRM never sold himself as "breaker of all the tropes!" would you be at all bothered by Jon's very classic hero journey? If people didn't think that everything had to be broken, I think people who object would find it just as enjoyable as say: Harry Potter or Star Wars.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Jon looks like a Stark. It does not mean he does have Targaryen genes in him. You have to look closely at the clues in appearence too. Aemon would not think he (Jon) is a Targaryen. He was already at the wall by the time Jon was born.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon looks like a Stark. It does not mean he does have Targaryen genes in him. You have to look closely at the clues in appearence too. Aemon would not think he (Jon) is a Targaryen. He was already at the wall by the time Jon was born.

I've actually seen it argued that the reason that Aemon is blind is because, if he could see, it's possible that he'd notice not-so-obvious Targaryen features other than hair and eyes (think nose, build, mannerisms, whatever) in Jon. Hell, despite being blind, he compares Jon to two different Targaryen kings. And good ones to boot.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I've actually seen it argued that the reason that Aemon is blind is because, if he could see, it's possible that he'd notice not-so-obvious Targaryen features other than hair and eyes (think nose, build, mannerisms, whatever) in Jon. Hell, despite being blind, he compares Jon to two different Targaryen kings. And good ones to boot.

Dang! Which two? I'm going have to a re-read after I'm done with my latest book. The bad part is my town's library does not have the fifth book yet. They have one through four. I have one in my room.

What about touching Jon? It would help him to see his features in a way that his eyes can not do.

[teej6]

This issue is one of the points I have been trying to make as well. Of course GRRM is not going to subvert all tropes--that would result in a very unsatisfying series. The example I have given before is to imagine that GoT was the entire series--no series, just the one book. Imagine the book ends basically the way it does--it undermines the trope, the main character (Ned) dies because he is good and is killed by evil people, the evil teenager, Joffrey, is left in power, the teenage daughter, Sansa, is left to his mercy, none of the perpetrators are brought to justice, etc. Sure tropes would be undermined, but no one would like the book. People liked the book because they knew it was a set-up--so it surprised people and made them want to see how things would turn out. But as an entire self-contained book--very few people would have liked it. So early on it is easy to subvert tropes--there is still time to have the more traditionally satisfying ending. In order to have a story that people really enjoy in the end, certain tropes need to be followed. GRRM is not the trope underminer that he purports to be--nor would we want him to be.

Completely agree with the above. There is good reason why people across time and various cultures have been drawn to the heroes of myths all sharing common identifiers/similar journeys -- Joseph Campbell's monomyth. Yes, GRRM did say he hates stories that are predictable but that does not imply he's out to destroy mythical archetypes that have been recycled for over thousands of years. And GRRM, IMO, is no different from all the writers who came before him. His aim is not to simply subvert tropes (a term that I find distasteful) or negate the classical hero/hidden prince archetype but to narrate the hero's journey possibly in a manner that's different from what's been done before. Now what that journey for the hero entails could be liked by many and despised by others and that's where a good writer will keep the readers guessing. Like UnmaskedLurker mentioned above Ned dying was not subverting any trope but rather essential for the story to move forward. Ned was never the main protagonist of the series but rather he was the father figure whose death was the catalyst that led to the beginning of the journey for the heroes of story and will lead them to their eventual destinies. When GRRM started his series he meant for it to end with 3 books and so he laid out the clues in the initial book. If GRRM had completed the series in 3 books maybe the aha moment would have been stronger for many readers.

[Yeade]

I posted this in the thread about romantic interpretations of R+L=J and skepticism thereof, but since that discussion has gone... rather sideways, I thought I'd repost my thoughts here.

I tend to think the mingling of love and prophecy in R+L=J is similar to, uh, The Matrix? (Don't laugh! :blush:) At the climax of the film, Trinity tells the dying Neo that he's the (Chosen) One because the Oracle prophesied that the man she loves will be the One and she loves him. Looking at what's known of Rhaegar's personality, I get the sense that he's not one easily touched by passion. He's introspective and prone to melancholy, a poet and an intellectual, studious, meticulous, and above all dutiful. His only real loves in life prior to meeting Lyanna seem to be books and music. Everything else he does--his martial prowess, his marriage to Elia, perhaps even his obsession with prophecy--is motivated by duty, to his family and to the realm.

Assuming Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is likely, and Rhaegar discovers this when sent by his father to unmask the mystery knight, I feel Lyanna just completely blindsides Rhaegar. She's a slip of a girl, fair and noble, only fourteen or fifteen years of age... who is so wild and bold as to ride disguised in a tourney, risking life, limb, and honor before nearly all the high lords of Westeros for the sake of avenging a wrong done unto her father's bannerman, who cannot defend himself. Any man would be astounded, IMO, and Rhaegar is deeply moved, as he's never been before by the actions of another. Later in the competition:

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his house wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him and Bronze Yohn Royce and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. (Eddard XV, AGOT)

In the championship tilt, Rhaegar then unhorses Ser Barristan, who certainly tries his best, intending to crown Ashara his queen of love and beauty (Barristan III, The Kingbreaker, ADWD). Rhaegar's performance in the tourney at Harrenhal, possibly one of the most contested in the history of Westeros, is quite remarkable, I'd argue, for a man who seldom entered the lists and had no love of the sport, though his skill was well regarded (Daenerys IV, ASOS). Why is Rhaegar so intent on winning this tourney? Recall Ser Jorah's victory in the tourney at Lannisport:

[Jorah:] "I fight as well as any man, khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted 'round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar [Lyle Crakehall], even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard--I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse [Hightower] queen of love and beauty and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand." (Daenerys I, ACOK)

Does Rhaegar fall in love with Lyanna at Harrenhal? He may have but, if he did, I don't believe he knew it himself, such emotion being wholly new to him. He's unusually driven to win the crown for Lyanna and does so with arguably uncharacteristic inattention to duty (his to Elia). Yet it'd be simple enough to rationalize his own actions as honoring Lyanna in the only way he publicly can for her otherwise unheralded bravery as Knight of the Laughing Tree, and I expect Rhaegar afterwards tells Elia as much. Thus why, for a year or so, Rhaegar quietly remains at Elia's side, their relationship apparently unchanged by the events of the tourney.

Now, where this goes totally speculative, lol, is that I think Rhaegar finds it hard to forget Lyanna and harder still to be content, if not happy, in doing his duty to family and realm as he used to be. Could he and Lyanna have stayed in touch via loyal messengers or the like? Say, the Whents? It has been speculated that Lyanna isn't in Winterfell when she elopes with Rhaegar but remains in or returns to Harrenhal to be educated in the ways of southron courts in preparation for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn and her own to Robert. When Rhaegar's informed that Elia can bear him no more children, I can imagine him having a sudden epiphany about who Lyanna is to him, love and prophecy entangled. Then Lyanna's impending marriage to Robert spurs Rhaegar and probably Lyanna, too, to rashness, with an end known to all.

While much has been made of Lyanna's youth and recklessness compared to Rhaegar's older and presumably wiser character, widely described as dutiful and rather dour, I wonder if Rhaegar wasn't as swept up in his feelings for Lyanna as she was in hers for him because he had never before been so moved by or, one can imagine, attracted to another person. Lyanna may have been Rhaegar's first love, with all the melodramatic craziness that usually entails, lol. Given his family circumstances--his parents' loveless marriage, his own passionless one--perhaps he was ill-equipped to control the quite natural torrent of confusing emotions, leading to lapses in his otherwise sound judgment and reasoning. It's interesting, IMO, to consider that Lyanna, not Rhaegar, could have been the one with an ulterior motive--escaping her unwanted betrothal to Robert--and encouraged the crown prince's infatuation with her, which likely would've had him eager to please her or at least see her happy, to arrange for herself a better match. In this scenario, fulfilling the AAR/PTWP prophecy was a post hoc justification on Rhaegar's part for following his heart. Plausible or not, it makes for some fun speculation, I hope! ^_^

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

This thread was the first time I read MtnLion's Tower of Joy analysis. As a newbie, I am sure that I'll return to it again and again. :bowdown:

It reminds me how much I loved Ned's fever dream. I am perhaps one of the few people who loves purple prose and beautiful language; I always thought that sequence reads kinda like a poem. It feels "long ago and far away." And it was the point when I hooked into the series.

Jon looks like a Stark. It does not mean he does have Targaryen genes in him. You have to look closely at the clues in appearence too. Aemon would not think he (Jon) is a Targaryen. He was already at the wall by the time Jon was born.

We all know people who look like one parent but have the personality and the mannerisms of another. It would be perfectly reasonable if Jon looked exactly like his mother, but had Rhaegar's personality and manner. He's even brooding and melancholy and emo like the silver prince was! Of course, that's not proof, but it's likely more than coincidence.

As for Aemon, I bet he has a hunch. Agree with this...

I've actually seen it argued that the reason that Aemon is blind is because, if he could see, it's possible that he'd notice not-so-obvious Targaryen features other than hair and eyes (think nose, build, mannerisms, whatever) in Jon. Hell, despite being blind, he compares Jon to two different Targaryen kings. And good ones to boot.

BearQueen87 mentioned the graphic novel. I am sure we'll have other clues too someday. There's a reason why Dany and Jon haven't met yet... I wonder if there's something about Jon that reminds her of Viserys.

And teej6, you're spot on about the monomyth. Everyone was screaming about Ned's death, and I wondered if they'd ever seen The Lion King! Or read any fairy tale for that matter... the parent always dies in the beginning, leaving the prince(s) and/or princess(es) unprotected. It's the classic structure of a coming-of-age tale.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I posted this in the thread about romantic interpretations of R+L=J and skepticism thereof, but since that discussion has gone... rather sideways, I thought I'd repost my thoughts here.

While much has been made of Lyanna's youth and recklessness compared to Rhaegar's older and presumably wiser character, widely described as dutiful and rather dour, I wonder if Rhaegar wasn't as swept up in his feelings for Lyanna as she was in hers for him because he had never before been so moved by or, one can imagine, attracted to another person. Lyanna may have been Rhaegar's first love, with all the melodramatic craziness that usually entails, lol. Given his family circumstances--his parents' loveless marriage, his own passionless one--perhaps he was ill-equipped to control the quite natural torrent of confusing emotions, leading to lapses in his otherwise sound judgment and reasoning. It's interesting, IMO, to consider that Lyanna, not Rhaegar, could have been the one with an ulterior motive--escaping her unwanted betrothal to Robert--and encouraged the crown prince's infatuation with her, which likely would've had him eager to please her or at least see her happy, to arrange for herself a better match. In this scenario, fulfilling the AAR/PTWP prophecy was a post hoc justification on Rhaegar's part for following his heart. Plausible or not, it makes for some fun speculation, I hope! ^_^

This is almost exactly what I think happened, too. Everything that can be deduced about Lyanna so far from the books points to a strong, decisive Arya-like personality. Everything that we know about Rhaegar points to someone who was intelligent, sensitive, dutiful and... probably never encountered anyone like Lyanna Stark in his life.

[Ygrain]

I posted this in the thread about romantic interpretations of R+L=J and skepticism thereof, but since that discussion has gone... rather sideways, I thought I'd repost my thoughts here.

While much has been made of Lyanna's youth and recklessness compared to Rhaegar's older and presumably wiser character, widely described as dutiful and rather dour, I wonder if Rhaegar wasn't as swept up in his feelings for Lyanna as she was in hers for him because he had never before been so moved by or, one can imagine, attracted to another person. Lyanna may have been Rhaegar's first love, with all the melodramatic craziness that usually entails, lol. Given his family circumstances--his parents' loveless marriage, his own passionless one--perhaps he was ill-equipped to control the quite natural torrent of confusing emotions, leading to lapses in his otherwise sound judgment and reasoning. It's interesting, IMO, to consider that Lyanna, not Rhaegar, could have been the one with an ulterior motive--escaping her unwanted betrothal to Robert--and encouraged the crown prince's infatuation with her, which likely would've had him eager to please her or at least see her happy, to arrange for herself a better match. In this scenario, fulfilling the AAR/PTWP prophecy was a post hoc justification on Rhaegar's part for following his heart. Plausible or not, it makes for some fun speculation, I hope! ^_^

Welcome to the path we have also trodden!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to Jons appearance, and him looking more like Lyanna than Rhaegar..

We read that Robb looks like a Tully, and not like a Stark. Yet at a certain point,Catelyn thinks to herself (paraphrased) "this was the first time she could see something of Ned in his face".

Ned claims he cannot take his bastard to court, but we learn that Robert had entertained the idea of bringing his own bastard to court as well. And bastards are not forbidden at court, look at Aurane Waters.

So perhaps there is a deeper reason to why Ned did not want to bring Jon to court. Perhaps he's afraid that people who knew Rhaegar closely (Pycelle, Varys) would see Rgaegar in Jons face just as Catelyn saw Ned in Robbs.

[Ygrain]

As to Jons appearance, and him looking more like Lyanna than Rhaegar..

We read that Robb looks like a Tully, and not like a Stark. Yet at a certain point,Catelyn thinks to herself (paraphrased) "this was the first time she could see something of Ned in his face".

Ned claims he cannot take his bastard to court, but we learn that Robert had entertained the idea of bringing his own bastard to court as well. And bastards are not forbidden at court, look at Aurane Waters.

So perhaps there is a deeper reason to why Ned did not want to bring Jon to court. Perhaps he's afraid that people who knew Rhaegar closely (Pycelle, Varys) would see Rgaegar in Jons face just as Catelyn saw Ned in Robbs.

And excellent observation. Recently, with Jon as LC, I've been thinking about Jaime's recollection of iron in Rhaegar's voice - perhaps Jon was developing character traits and mannerism that might have set some people thinking "now, what was it the Stark's sister died of?"