Tycho and mace in bravos! [book spoilers]

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Keep in mind that Mace Tyrell does indeed leave King's Landing on Cersei's directive in A Feast for Crows. She sends him to lift the siege of Storm's End, largely as a pretext to get him out of King's Landing.

Taking a line directly from Mace Tyrell's page on A Wiki of Ice and Fire: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mace_Tyrell

"Mace is charged by Queen Regent Cersei Lannister with the capture of Storm's End in order to remove him from King's Landing. He sets out with half the Tyrell strength. (reference: Chapter 12 of AFFC, Cersei III). With Mace gone Cersei plots against his daughter, Margaery. Reciprocal accusations of immorality leads to the imprisonment of both Margaery and Cersei by the Faith of the Seven When Mace receives news of this he leaves the siege and marches his army back to King's Landing, leaving Lord Mathis Rowan to continue the siege with fewer men."

I dunno man from Mace's perspective, besieging one of the realms great castles and one that you previously failed to capture is far more appealing than taking a risky ship to negotiate with the bank, when the crown is in a fuck load of debt to you personally

[SoManyVows]

I dunno man from Mace's perspective, besieging one of the realms great castles and one that you previously failed to capture is far more appealing than taking a risky ship to negotiate with the bank, when the crown is in a fuck load of debt to you personally

I'll grant you that. Nevertheless, negotiating with the Iron Bank fits the bill as an "important task" for Mace to handle that will get him out of King's Landing for at least half of the season. As we saw in Season 4, Mace is eager to be regarded as important man, and I can easily see Cersei selling him on how critical this mission is as a way to get him to accept the task.

(Of course, it actually is a critical task - the fact that Cersei would send such an uninspiring man to deal with it speaks to her lack of appreciation for its urgency. It's barely a step above her ignoring the threat entirely - which is what she does in the novels. Harys Swyft is, to be honest, an even less formidable emissary, but Kevan sending him to Braavos is largely a consequence of him not having any better options. King's Landing is a bit short on talent at this point.)

Point being, the show can't and shouldn't waste time and money depicting unnecessary military campaigns. Sure, they could cast brand-new and thoroughly unmemorable character in Harys Swyft to send to Braavos while Mace Tyrell either disappears (a bit of a waste after they introduced him last season) or dithers on the margins in King's Landing (in which case the show will have to explain why he doesn't intervene when Cersei gets Margaery arrested - he isn't that oblivious). Or ... the show can give himself something else to do. Sending him to Braavos condenses characters and storylines in an efficient manner, while achieving the same overall objective.

[Game of Thrones Reference]

Watch the Sopranos. You can introduce characters and find feasible ways to present them. If it doesn't work well, oh well, they already killed that excuse when they had Lysa tell Petyr randomly that she killed Jon. Book purists aren't unreasonable, the changes D&D make for convenience sake confuse the plot later on, and makes it difficult to keep to the books, which are, unsurprisingly, the better plots. (Jaime being back early, not enough mention of Tysha etc, complete absence of Asha at Deepwood, that STUPID dreadfort scene ruining Asha and Theon's depressing scene in ADWD.)

I am unfamiliar with the Sopranos, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. All I know is that if a tv series introduces too many characters, it gets dragged down and bloated. The Unsullied have already complained that there are too many characters and that it is getting confusing. Also, about the Dreadfort scene, Asha never reunited with Theon. She was meeting Reek for the first time and came to the conclusion that her brother was dead, something she already believed in ADWD. Their reunion will be just as powerful and depressing as it was in the books. Also, the Dreadfort scene allowed Ramsey to see that his new pet was completely loyal and would choose him over his own sister, giving him the idea to use Reek to take Moat Cailin from the ironborn. And I'm not sure how bringing Jaimie back early was a critical mistake.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

I am unfamiliar with the Sopranos, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. All I know is that if a tv series introduces too many characters, it gets dragged down and bloated. The Unsullied have already complained that there are too many characters and that it is getting confusing. Also, about the Dreadfort scene, Asha never reunited with Theon. She was meeting Reek for the first time and came to the conclusion that her brother was dead, something she already believed in ADWD. Their reunion will be just as powerful and depressing as it was in the books. Also, the Dreadfort scene allowed Ramsey to see that his new pet was completely loyal and would choose him over his own sister, giving him the idea to use Reek to take Moat Cailin from the ironborn. And I'm not sure how bringing Jaimie back early was a critical mistake.

Sopranos has a tonne of characters introduced with ease, well established and developed. It's HBO too so there's clearly a budget which GOT can exploit. And no it does lose its meaning kinda. The fact that she doesn't recognise him in the books is ruined now. She recognised him as Theon and attempted to bring him home. In the books she assumed him to be dead. And well we got that god awful 'you took too long' line which made no sense in the show but was poignant in the books. We had jaime and cersei's relationship ruined and that god awful rape scene. We had him meeting with Tyrion which sabotaged their falling out later on. Etcetera Ectera

[Game of Thrones Reference]

Sopranos has a tonne of characters introduced with ease, well established and developed. It's HBO too so there's clearly a budget which GOT can exploit. And no it does lose its meaning kinda. The fact that she doesn't recognise him in the books is ruined now. She recognised him as Theon and attempted to bring him home. In the books she assumed him to be dead. And well we got that god awful 'you took too long' line which made no sense in the show but was poignant in the books. We had jaime and cersei's relationship ruined and that god awful rape scene. We had him meeting with Tyrion which sabotaged their falling out later on. Etcetera Ectera

The Sopranos had a bigger cast than GOT? I didn't think that was possible, but I'll take your word for it. Look, I don't want you to think I'm a D&D apologist, because I'm not. I'm not ok with some of the choices they've made, but it's still my favorite tv series. I've even enjoyed some aspects of the tv show more than I enjoyed it in the books like Arya/Hound good-bye and Oberyn Martell. IMO, a lot of the criticism D&D receive is unwarranted. I'm just trying to be realistic. When I first heard of the tv series, I didn't expect them to add every character and scene from the book, because that would be impossible. There is no such thing as a perfect adaptation, but GOT comes closer than I dared to hope. So I'm grateful. I could see Mace Tyrell in Braavos work, and it would be better for the Unsullied that they send an already established character rather than introduce a new one.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

The Sopranos had a bigger cast than GOT? I didn't think that was possible, but I'll take your word for it. Look, I don't want you to think I'm a D&D apologist, because I'm not. I'm not ok with some of the choices they've made, but it's still my favorite tv series. I've even enjoyed some aspects of the tv show more than I enjoyed it in the books like Arya/Hound good-bye and Oberyn Martell. IMO, a lot of the criticism D&D receive is unwarranted. I'm just trying to be realistic. When I first heard of the tv series, I didn't expect them to add every character and scene from the book, because that would be impossible. There is no such thing as a perfect adaptation, but GOT comes closer than I dared to hope. So I'm grateful. I could see Mace Tyrell in Braavos work, and it would be better for the Unsullied that they send an already established character rather than introduce a new one.

Yeah man I'm not busting your balls. I too thought Oberyn was better and i much preferred how they handled the 'champion' thing and Tyrions backstory in the dungeon rather than on the road. Yeah I guess you're right. I'm just nitpicking. It just irks me that they waste time on Missandei Grey Worm filler when they could introduce minor characters :stillsick:

[Janicia]

Yeah man I'm not busting your balls. I too thought Oberyn was better and i much preferred how they handled the 'champion' thing and Tyrions backstory in the dungeon rather than on the road. Yeah I guess you're right. I'm just nitpicking. It just irks me that they waste time on Missandei Grey Worm filler when they could introduce minor characters :stillsick:

The Missandei and Grey Worm scenes in season 4 weren't filler. They were there for good reasons. For all the time that Dany spends in Essos, the non-Westerosi characters are not very well developed or memorable in the books. The scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei have started to give badly needed development for these characters. Those scenes weren't just about the attraction they have for each other, they were also about what these people want from life, what Dany means to them, whether they care more about vengeance or getting on with their lives. I'm curious how they'll react to the growing challenges in Mereen and how they'll react to Dany leaving. I never wondered those things about their book counterparts.

ASOIAF spends a lot of time on the good and bad impacts of Dany's actions in Slaver's Bay. We should see that play out in a character's lives. And when you're telling a story about slavery, the slaves should get some screen time.

And finally, there were only a few short Grey Worm / Missandei scenes, and they were enjoyable TV. Axing all of them wouldn't give much room for other subplots. Introducing minor Kings Landing character #56 would NOT be better than breathing life into the story in Mereen.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

The Missandei and Grey Worm scenes in season 4 weren't filler. They were there for good reasons. For all the time that Dany spends in Essos, the non-Westerosi characters are not very well developed or memorable in the books. The scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei have started to give badly needed development for these characters. Those scenes weren't just about the attraction they have for each other, they were also about what these people want from life, what Dany means to them, whether they care more about vengeance or getting on with their lives. I'm curious how they'll react to the growing challenges in Mereen and how they'll react to Dany leaving. I never wondered those things about their book counterparts.

ASOIAF spends a lot of time on the good and bad impacts of Dany's actions in Slaver's Bay. We should see that play out in a character's lives. And when you're telling a story about slavery, the slaves should get some screen time.

And finally, there were only a few short Grey Worm / Missandei scenes, and they were enjoyable TV. Axing all of them wouldn't give much room for other subplots. Introducing minor Kings Landing character #56 would NOT be better than breathing life into the story in Mereen.

Dude they were total filler. That Missandei naked BS thing and the Grey Worm language scenes were pointless. She's 11 in the books, and we already know he's devoted from her in season 3. Not every minor character needs to be developed like that. If so, then it's scandalous that BTB's back story wasn't discussed more in S4

[Janicia]

Dude they were total filler. That Missandei naked BS thing and the Grey Worm language scenes were pointless. She's 11 in the books, and we already know he's devoted from her in season 3. Not every minor character needs to be developed like that. If so, then it's scandalous that BTB's back story wasn't discussed more in S4

Missandei's age in the books has no relevance to whether the scenes were meaningful to the show or not. If you can't acknowledge that show cannon is separate from book cannon, you probably shouldn't watch the show.

Exactly, a bunch of minor characters don't need to be developed, or even introduced. But Dany's arc in Essos in the books really suffers from a lack of interesting, well-developed secondary characters, which is particularly glaring since GRRM wants to probe the politics of slavery and liberation without giving voice to the slaves or the former masters. Missandei, Grey Worm, and Hizdahr need the screen time, especially as Dany becomes harder to like.

Anyway, Missandei or Grey Worm will probably die in season 5 since the characters from the books that die in Mereen aren't in the show. That is probably a big part of why their relationship was given a few minutes in season 4.

On a slightly more relevant topic for this thread: I haven't seen any indication that Sam goes to Bravos this season in the filming news yet. If Sam, Gilly, and Aemon go to Bravos, I wonder if they will encounter Mace's group, and under what circumstances they might encounter Arya.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Missandei's age in the books has no relevance to whether the scenes were meaningful to the show or not. If you can't acknowledge that show cannon is separate from book cannon, you probably shouldn't watch the show.

Exactly, a bunch of minor characters don't need to be developed, or even introduced. But Dany's arc in Essos in the books really suffers from a lack of interesting, well-developed secondary characters, which is particularly glaring since GRRM wants to probe the politics of slavery and liberation without giving voice to the slaves or the former masters. Missandei, Grey Worm, and Hizdahr need the screen time, especially as Dany becomes harder to like.

Anyway, Missandei or Grey Worm will probably die in season 5 since the characters from the books that die in Mereen aren't in the show. That is probably a big part of why their relationship was given a few minutes in season 4.

On a slightly more relevant topic for this thread: I haven't seen any indication that Sam goes to Bravos this season in the filming news yet. If Sam, Gilly, and Aemon go to Bravos, I wonder if they will encounter Mace's group, and under what circumstances they might encounter Arya.

I hope they stick to the books on this one. Considering Mace probably knows one of his best supporter's disgraced son. I really liked how Sam encountered Arya. And if they cut it out I'll be very embittered. There's a line in which their material becomes too divergent

[juanml82]

A Sam/Mace Tyrell encounter could be interesting, as it will be a way to deal with Sam issues with his father. Specially so if they plan on introducing Randyll Tarly at some point (probably not). Plot wise, it shouldn't add too much, as the Watch is neutral and the Reach won't help them anyways.

It would also help to tie in the Watch with the main Westeros plots. Sort of Daennerys discussing the recent tweets about Joffrey's death and Tywin emailing her Jorah's betrayal.

[Janicia]

I hope they stick to the books on this one. Considering Mace probably knows one of his best supporter's disgraced son. I really liked how Sam encountered Arya. And if they cut it out I'll be very embittered. There's a line in which their material becomes too divergent

I hadn't even been thinking about the fact that Mace and Sam should know each other (though that hasn't really been established in the show). Good point. We haven't ever seen Sam in his capacity as a lord and a Tyrell bannerman. That could be also interesting from the perspective of Sam's relationship with Gilly, who is intimidated but also impressed by his roots.

But the other interesting aspect of a possible encounter is that Sam is representing the Night's Watch, who are harboring Stannis. And Mace is representing the Iron Throne, to which Stannis is a mortal enemy. And they both want money from the Iron bank.

I'm not really expecting that to all be explored - if Sam encounters Mace it will probably be very brief, but I can have headcannon!

If they send Sam to Bravos, he has to encounter Arya. It is too wonderful to skip.

[sertravisredbeard]

It'd be pretty awesome if Arya ends up killing Mace. That'd be a momentous collision of storylines.

[Colonel Green]

Anyway, Missandei or Grey Worm will probably die in season 5 since the characters from the books that die in Mereen aren't in the show.

What characters? There's no reason to think they'll kill Missandei and Grey Worm.

It'd be pretty awesome if Arya ends up killing Mace. That'd be a momentous collision of storylines.

That would be highly unlikely to happen even in the books, let alone in the show, which has a pretty clear preference for keeping the "heroes" hands as clean as possible. Mace is goofy comic relief on the show, not somebody you could have Arya kill without making her look bad.

[Beric175]

Well, they made Theon a real dick in season 2 and so if Martin tells them that some of previously heroic characters will end up being villainous by the end I expect them to stick more or less to those guidelines by the time the last episode of the show comes around...

[Janicia]

What characters? There's no reason to think they'll kill Missandei and Grey Worm.

That would be highly unlikely to happen even in the books, let alone in the show, which has a pretty clear preference for keeping the "heroes" hands as clean as possible. Mace is goofy comic relief on the show, not somebody you could have Arya kill without making her look bad.

I think there is a decent chance one or the other will die. "Probably" was overstating. Most of the deaths in books 4 and 5 aren't significant characters on the show, so I do expect some characters to die in season 5 that were alive at the end of book 5.

Rather than Strong Belwas eating poison and living, Missandei might eat poison and die, which I could see them doing to amp up the episode 9 Pit scene. People have also speculated that Grey Worm might die earlier in the season at the hands of the Sons of the Harpy, but I think that is unlikely because they probably need him for the Battle of Mereen. If they do a scaled-down Battle of Mereen (no external armies, just a coup after Dany flies away), Grey Worm could die in the action. I think Grey Worm is safer than Missandei since he's the entire face of the Unsullied.

But yeah, very good chance I'm just making silly things up.

[Arkash]

We know the show cast the equivalent of Stalwart Shield so Grey Worm is safe at least until the end of the season, imo. I dont know if he'll die but not right away, and as Janicia said above, not before the Battle of Meereen.

Missandei dying of the poisoned locusts is interesting. If the show wants to build one hell of a memorable scene at the pit (Tyrion / Jorah vs potential lion, Drogon and Dany flying away...), they could always add a death in the mix, but I like the idea that it will be a major scene without any major death, so I hope Missandei will make it in the end.

As for Sam and Mace meeting, that's an interesting idea as well, there could be something to devellop there (Sam proving that he's a capable diplomat, Mace hearing of the son of Randyl Tarly - possible world build up if Randyl ends up on the show...) but it will take too much screentime I think and they'll really devote Braavos to Arya's training and Iron Bank intrigue to add that a meeting between Sam and Mace. As interesting as it is...

And I'm thinking more and more that if Sam will leave the Wall, it will be by the end of the season.

[Janicia]

Missandei dying of the poisoned locusts is interesting. If the show wants to build one hell of a memorable scene at the pit (Tyrion / Jorah vs potential lion, Drogon and Dany flying away...), they could always add a death in the mix, but I like the idea that it will be a major scene without any major death, so I hope Missandei will make it in the end.

I really like Missandei's portrayal and I'd be sad to lose her. And I agree that Tyrion vs lion and Dany flying away, especially if accompanied by a coup, doesn't need to be amped up by a character death.

But Hizdahr attempting to poison Dany is probably an important plot point and probably requires somebody to eat poison and die. Could be an extra.

Another reason I think Missandei might die prematurely is that the differences between show Missandei and book Missandei do kind of point toward diverging endgames. Book Missandei is suspiciously well-learned, wise, acute, and good at sneaking around for a kid of her age, and she's been spending a lot of time with documents. I think there is a good chance that she was replaced with a Faceless Man or glamored or something. But there has been no foreshadowing in the show that Missandei is different from what she seems - the show could kill her off rather than following the book through a hidden-identity reveal.

[Frumpus]

I'm sure book purists do. Did nobody care about Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling? Makes no sense to put Mace there, absolutely no way would book Mace accept this mission with how tetchy his relationship with Cersei is

Only book purists cared about the Talisa/Jeyne change.

If you're this upset over this Mace/Swyft change, you're gonna hate what they do with the rest of the season lol.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Only book purists cared about the Talisa/Jeyne change.

If you're this upset over this Mace/Swyft change, you're gonna hate what they do with the rest of the season lol.

Lol hated a lot of last season anyway. Could deal with the Talisa/Jeyne but if they seriously cut Arianne/Quent/Aegon/JonCon I will flip my shit