Tycho and mace in bravos! [book spoilers]

[zaphodbrx]

It's plausible that the IBOB has already sent a representative to KL already and that Cersei "mishandled" the meeting in her own lovely way. Just like in book canon the Crown would have their tail between their legs in their next sitdown with the IBOB and thus need to make the trek themselves.

Also by that same token you could say that Grrm just sent Harys Swyft to the IBOB so that Arya could kill Raff. There's more to it than just the vengeance and having Arya kill someone; it's an important break that Arya makes from what the Faceless Men want her to and it will likely have consequences. It make perfect sense for them to switch it to Meryn (because, you know, Raff doesn't exist in the show...) and it's a case of prudent rather than careless adaptation. Maybe you all haven't read the Mercy chapter but that's no excuse to indulge in pre-emptive critiques of s5.

On one level, yes I agree. On the other hand, instead of adapting 'Mercy' they could have adapted the Sam chapter in AFFC where Arya kills Daeron. That sub plot is basically the same thing and doesn't seem to be making it into the show.

A problem with that though is that, like Raff, Daeron doesn't exist on the show either. You'd probably have to do it with Dolorous Edd ( meh ).

[Konradsmith]

Dareon would not be hard to introduce and for all we know that incident will be in the show (I think it's likely since both Arya and Sam will need to do something in the mid-season surely). The point of contention from the Faceless Men will be that she did it AGAIN since they seemingly forgave her first indiscretion.

[igrewupinKL]

The thing i find confusing with the show's IBOB is that, the iron bank is already backing Stannis. All they would need is confirmation that Cersei is not going to pay (hence tycho going to kings landing). But since Mace is going to braavos, just to say what? 'im not going to pay' or 'heres some money, but we still can't pay you back' (could have been done by a random envoy with a message)? unless they see someone from the iron bank earlier in the season in KL, it won't make much sense to me.

[Konradsmith]

Bryan Cogman said that they gave Stannis a preliminary loan, they didn't back him yet. I'm sure all of that will be cleared up early on in s5.

As for what Mace will say, I imagine it will be along the lines of whatever Harys Swyft says under nearly-identical circumstances.

BTW I'm glad this thread's gotten back on topic.

[igrewupinKL]

^yeh i didn't read the preceding posts thats why :drunk:

Yeh i think even a 'preliminary loan' means something

[Dragon in the North]

The thing i find confusing with the show's IBOB is that, the iron bank is already backing Stannis. All they would need is confirmation that Cersei is not going to pay (hence tycho going to kings landing). But since Mace is going to braavos, just to say what? 'im not going to pay' or 'heres some money, but we still can't pay you back' (could have been done by a random envoy with a message)? unless they see someone from the iron bank earlier in the season in KL, it won't make much sense to me.

I think the small council will receive word that the Iron Bank gave Stannis a loan, and then they will send Mace to treat with the Bank and try to make amends.

[igrewupinKL]

I think the small council will receive word that the Iron Bank gave Stannis a loan, and then they will send Mace to treat with the Bank and try to make amends.

This is likely. i really wanted Cersei to defy the bank as another bad decision though

[Konradsmith]

It's very possible that we get both her defiance of the bank and then the mea culpa Mace trip overseas. If she pisses off the IBOB's delegation to KL it would make sense if their next meeting with the Crown would be on THEIR turf. Which, again, would not be all that different from what goes down in the books.

[igrewupinKL]

It's very possible that we get both her defiance of the bank and then the mea culpa Mace trip overseas. If she pisses off the IBOB's delegation to KL it would make sense if their next meeting with the Crown would be on THEIR turf. Which, again, would not be all that different from what goes down in the books.

Yeh thats what i would prefer to happen. It's a bit funny they chose Mace to do it though. Technically all they needed was for Arya to recognise Meryn, they didn't need to show how the bank deal went down in Braavos

[Beric175]

All that needs to happen is that Mace gets out of KL with the purpose being thoroughly irrelevant so if they can give him somthing to do that a different character does in the books, I have no problem with it.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Btw it REALLY bothers me that the OP wrote 'Bravos' rather than Braavos. Unsullied?

[zaphodbrx]

The thing i find confusing with the show's IBOB is that, the iron bank is already backing Stannis. All they would need is confirmation that Cersei is not going to pay (hence tycho going to kings landing). But since Mace is going to braavos, just to say what? 'im not going to pay' or 'heres some money, but we still can't pay you back' (could have been done by a random envoy with a message)? unless they see someone from the iron bank earlier in the season in KL, it won't make much sense to me.

Yup exactly. I know Bryan Cogman has said that IB has only given 'partial' support to Stannis, but that doesn't make any sense either.

Assuming that IB has given only a 'small' loan to Stannis, what does he do with his new found wealth and army? He sails off to the end of the world and will soon be freezing and starving. Hello? How exactly is this helping the IB? If that is the result of a 'small' loan, why would the IB ever help him again? He's a terrible investment.

Incidentally, this gives Cersei a good reason to be pissed at the IB, because they backed Stannis for, lets see.. NO reason whatsoever? If I were ruling Westeros at this point I would tell IB to fck off as well. Not send Mace Tyrell as an envoy ( And lets remember show!Mace is a lackwit who's only good for fetching pen and paper ).

Can't wait for this piece of fanfiction to fall flat on its face like they so often do. Well atleast we'll get Arya killing Meryn.

[Konradsmith]

The IBOB was willing to back Stannis in ADWD despite the fact that he was soon freezing and starving. If that's a leap of logic then it applies to the source material as well. It is also not out of character for the IBOB to hedge their bets and play both sides in the war. If Stan wins by the long shot they know they'll get their cash back because of his pedantic nature and otherwise they can keep loaning to the Crown knowing that is dependent on them and at their mercy.

As for the term "fanfiction", the show isn't by definition since it's Grrm-approved.

[Beric175]

@zaphodbrx: woah slow down, buddy. I bet a lot of your own theories as to how the series continues will turn out to be fanfiction as well...can we laugh at that too? Last time I heard D&D knew the ending and knew most of the way to get there and we didn't, and they also had Martin's approval to do the show in the first place. So who has more freedom on what to do on the show? You guessed it: them.

Lets say that Stannis explained to the IB that a wilding invasion was on the way and that noone South of the Wall would be able or willing to stop it and that hence they wouldn't get any of their money back from anyone, seeing as hierarchical societies with big institutions are not a wildling thing...you don't think they would want to prevent that? Also Cersei is irrational, Tommen's a small child and Tywin's old and on his way out. Those are enough reasons to back the stubborn man who grinds his teeth.

[Konradsmith]

The show led us to believe that what Davos told the IBOB was what convinced them. The nature of their loan will probably be clarified somewhat next season but I'm not sure how much show Stan knew about the wildlings attacking. That is, until he trounced them. I doubt that Stan mentioned the wildings or the WW to the IBOB. Who knows if he even mentioned that his lot would be going up north. I don't think Stan even hired the sellswords Davos suggested. Basically their loan was enough to feed and supply his 4,000 troops and enough to pay Saan to help sail his fleet to Eastwatch. Of course, as in ASOS, there's a lot left unexplained about the logistics of his sailing northward.

I think the IBOB's rationale was more "if this guy wins, he'll pay us back for sure" or even, "if the crown hears about this and realizes they still need us, this will make them more likely to bend over backwards to make a better deal with us (once Cersei's out of the picture at least)". It is win/win for them in the long run.

[igrewupinKL]

Everyone calm down. We are just trying to find the logic in these situations.

Cersei can't know about the IBOB lending money to Stannis, otherwise as zaphodbrx mentioned, this would give Cersei an excuse to not want to pay the IBOB back rather than just being irrational. It detaches from both her personality and character development in the show to do anything other than refuse to pay the IBOB especially since she KNOWS now that the Lannisters actually have no gold left.

Also i doubt the IBOB care about the wildling invasion or who is on the iron throne, they just want their money. I think they gave Stannis a loan in season 4 because they will be skipping Tycho's journey north (including the wall). So they took a chance on Stannis...BEFORE being denied by Cersei which is the part that doesn't make sense. The IBOB can lend to others, yes, but they are also patient. Which is why they took so long to send someone to KL to even speak to Cersei when they hadn't been getting payments for years, and only after they were sure she wouldn't pay they went to the person who had the best chance of overthrowing the current crown.

Okay sure, backing Stannis before confirmation can work on the show if you forget some book principles which is fine. My only problem is if they then have Cersei actually take initiative to send Mace to Braavos if no prior conversation with an IBOB representative has taken place earlier in the season, meaning that she was actually going to pay them. Cersei needs to be a terrible ruler, she needs to make terrible decisions.

By the way i have a feeling both Mace and Meryn don't make it back from Braavos. I'm kind've sad that they are deciding to off Meryn as he is the only recognisable kingsguard on the show lol

[FreeParking]

The IBOB is patient? You mean the guys who sent someone to seek out a man further away from the throne than ever, during a snowstorm, fighting Ironborn and Boltons, with a starving army? "I could wait here at Castle Black until Stannis takes a castle so I can communicate using ravens. Nah, I will just go into the warzone and the snows." They are so patient in fact that Genna Lannister tells us they are now calling in debts from the houses, who, as far as we know, have not defaulted on payments.

[Dragon in the North]

Everyone calm down. We are just trying to find the logic in these situations.

Cersei can't know about the IBOB lending money to Stannis, otherwise as zaphodbrx mentioned, this would give Cersei an excuse to not want to pay the IBOB back rather than just being irrational. It detaches from both her personality and character development in the show to do anything other than refuse to pay the IBOB especially since she KNOWS now that the Lannisters actually have no gold left.

I think the exact opposite is true. By giving Stannis a preliminary loan, I think the Iron Bank is threatening Cercei that if they don't get their money back soon, they will throw they're entire weight behind Stannis. This propels Cercei to send Mace to Braavos, so they could use Tyrell gold to get back on the Iron Bank's good side and receive they're full support again. I know you want Cercei refusing the Iron Bank to be another big mistake, but she can make plenty of those with the High Sparrow, and from a logistics standpoint, the scenario makes sense, at least to me.

[zaphodbrx]

I think the exact opposite is true. By giving Stannis a preliminary loan, I think the Iron Bank is threatening Cercei that if they don't get their money back soon, they will throw they're entire weight behind Stannis. This propels Cercei to send Mace to Braavos, so they could use Tyrell gold to get back on the Iron Bank's good side and receive they're full support again. I know you want Cercei refusing the Iron Bank to be another big mistake, but she can make plenty of those with the High Sparrow, and from a logistics standpoint, the scenario makes sense, at least to me.

I'm sorry, this doesn't work. If Mace is going to repay the Iron Bank ( with what? Lannister gold mines are empty remember? ), then why should they keep supporting Stannis? If he doesn't repay them, why is he going to Bravos? Not to mention, this leaves out a key factor in Cersei's downfall.

The Iron Bank is threatening Cersei? Why would they? Oh, and Stannis took their loan and sailed off to the end of the world where he is not threatening at the moment ( unlike being at Dragonstone ). If that is supposed to be an Iron Bank "threat", its a really bad one.

[Dragon in the North]

I'm sorry, this doesn't work. If Mace is going to repay the Iron Bank ( with what? Lannister gold mines are empty remember? ), then why should they keep supporting Stannis? If he doesn't repay them, why is he going to Bravos? Not to mention, this leaves out a key factor in Cersei's downfall.

The Iron Bank is threatening Cersei? Why would they? Oh, and Stannis took their loan and sailed off to the end of the world where he is not threatening at the moment ( unlike being at Dragonstone ). If that is supposed to be an Iron Bank "threat", its a really bad one.

Like I said, they would use Tyrell gold, not Lannister. The Tyrells are rich too. And I already posted why they would threaten Cercei. To compel her to pay back the gold the Crown owns by threatening to fund Stannis, who is still launching a campaign to acquire the Iron Throne. He's using the Iron Bank's gold to rally allies in the North. Negotiations may break down between the Tyrells and the Iron Bank. How, I wouldn't know until the season comes out. This is all speculation, but I think it could be done. And you do realize, as others have pointed out, in the books, the Iron Bank goes to Stannis after he sailed to the end of the world where he is not threatening at the moment (unlike being at Dragonstone), and offered him a loan. If it's illogical in the show, then it's illogical in the books too.