Jon's body will be burned

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Heh, can't say I'm on board with that one. It's from Jon's POV. We would know if it wasn't Jon.

I agree...I don't buy into it but had to throw it out there as I have heard it discussed more often than I would have figured.

[Faint]

Again, he was sliced across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed once more between the shoulder blades, stabbed once more after that at an undisclosed location -- although, presumably in the back, since he had already fallen face first into the snow at that point.

And that's the stabbings we know about. He might well have been stabbed a dozen more times while he was on the ground. There is also strong indications that he was losing his motor reflexes before he fled his body.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Again, he was sliced across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed once more between the shoulder blades, stabbed once more after that at an undisclosed location -- although, presumably in the back, since he had already fallen face first into the snow at that point.

And that's the stabbings we know about. He might well have been stabbed a dozen more times while he was on the ground. There is also strong indications that he was losing his motor reflexes before he fled his body.

That is certainly one interpretation of the events.

[Faint]

That is certainly one interpretation of the events.

What happened after he went face first into the snow beyond the fact that he was stabbed at least one more time is speculation, including the location of that stabbing (although, I think it is reasonable to assume he was stabbed in the back).

What happened before then is not an interpretation. It is what happened.

[sj4iy]

Again, he was sliced across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed once more between the shoulder blades, stabbed once more after that at an undisclosed location -- although, presumably in the back, since he had already fallen face first into the snow at that point.

And that's the stabbings we know about. He might well have been stabbed a dozen more times while he was on the ground. There is also strong indications that he was losing his motor reflexes before he fled his body.

No, he wasn't.

1. He was grazed across the throat. I've never known the word 'graze' to mean the same thing as 'sliced' in the English language.

graze 2 (grāz)

v. grazed, graz·ing, graz·es

v.tr.

1. To touch lightly in passing; brush. See Synonyms at brush1.

2. To scrape or scratch slightly; abrade.

v.intr.

To scrape or touch something lightly in passing.

n.

1. The act of brushing or scraping along a surface.

2. A minor scratch or abrasion.

2. He was punched in the stomach. Jon wrenched the knife free. Martin doesn't use the word 'stab'.

3. He was 'taken' in the back. Again, he doesn't use the word 'stab'.

4. He didn't feel the fourth. Once again, no mention of being 'stabbed'.

Your assessment that he was hacked to bits absolutely does not fit the description we are given- which, by the way, is very reminiscent of some other death fake-outs:

She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

His axe took her in the back of the head.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...

By your assessment, then, the axe cut off Arya's head. But by Martin's own writing, she was simply hit on the head with the blunt side and knocked out. Not sure why you would automatically jump to the conclusion that he was stabbed when we know that Martin has used the word ambiguously before.

[Faint]

Call it what you want, but it comes down to the same thing. He was cut enough to bleed freely immediately after the blade made contact with his skin. That point is indisputable.

As for him being "taken" in the back not equating to him being stabbed in the back, all I can say is that not even Antonin Scalia could twist the meaning of words so much and keep a straight face.

Jon's assassins came with ill will and cold steel; not fisticuffs.

We know that Bowen March stabbed hard and stabbed deep, and can well reason that his cohorts followed suit once Jon was incapacitated and unable to defend himself.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

No, he wasn't.

1. He was grazed across the throat. I've never known the word 'graze' to mean the same thing as 'sliced' in the English language.

graze 2 (grāz)

v. grazed, graz·ing, graz·es

v.tr.

1. To touch lightly in passing; brush. See Synonyms at brush1.

2. To scrape or scratch slightly; abrade.

v.intr.

To scrape or touch something lightly in passing.

n.

1. The act of brushing or scraping along a surface.

2. A minor scratch or abrasion.

2. He was punched in the stomach. Jon wrenched the knife free. Martin doesn't use the word 'stab'.

3. He was 'taken' in the back. Again, he doesn't use the word 'stab'.

4. He didn't feel the fourth. Once again, no mention of being 'stabbed'.

Your assessment that he was hacked to bits absolutely does not fit the description we are given- which, by the way, is very reminiscent of some other death fake-outs:

She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

His axe took her in the back of the head.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...

By your assessment, then, the axe cut off Arya's head. But by Martin's own writing, she was simply hit on the head with the blunt side and knocked out. Not sure why you would automatically jump to the conclusion that he was stabbed when we know that Martin has used the word ambiguously before.

This.

[Faint]

For Jon's situation to equate with his cousin's, someone would have had to raise a blade above his head before he blacked out and the chapter finished.

That is not what happened.

He was cut across the throat, stabbed twice -- once in the front, once in the back -- fell on his face, stabbed once move -- which, suspiciously, he did not feel -- then the chapter finished.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

For Jon's situation to equate with his cousin's, someone would have had to raise a blade above his head before he blacked out and the chapter finished.

That is not what happened.

He was cut across the throat, stabbed twice -- once in the front, once in the back -- fell on his face, stabbed once move -- which, suspiciously, he did not feel -- then the chapter finished.

That is certainly one interpretation of the events. Not the only interpretation though.

That is the point...and that is why GRRM wrote it with those vague descriptive words. To keep us debating the events.

It may very well turn out that he is stabbed multiple times. I am not saying he wasn't. But it also may turn out that he was not stabbed, because the actual text in the book can be interpreted differently.

My only issue is when people definitively say one way or the other. It is meant to be ambiguous.

And saying 100% either way is very obstinate. The text is what the text is. It does not say he WAS stabbed, nor does it say he WAS NOT stabbed.

[sj4iy]

Call it what you want, but it comes down to the same thing. He was cut enough to bleed freely immediately after the blade made contact with his skin. That point is indisputable.

Any neck or head wound will bleed more because there is more blood flow to that area of the body. Known fact. I was grazed on the forehead once and it looked like something out of Evil Dead. But it was only a small, superficial cut. I see no difference here.

As for him being "taken" in the back not equating to him being stabbed in the back, all I can say is that not even Antonin Scalia could twist the meaning of words so much and keep a straight face.

Take it up with Martin, not me. I gave you a very clear example of Martin doing just that- twisting the words to imply something and then revealing something else. That's what he does- he's a writer.

Jon's assassins came with ill will and cold steel; not fisticuffs.

You don't know who attacked him from behind. For all we know, it was a friend of his knocking him down to get him out of danger. The scene is simply too unreliably described to make any determinations at this point. He could have been stabbed. He could have been mortally stabbed. Or he could have been knocked down. Or hit. Or a whole host of things, really. Again, Martin's job is to twist the meaning of words and make the audience thing one thing while he's saying another.

We know that Bowen March stabbed hard and stabbed deep, and can well reason that his cohorts followed suit once Jon was incapacitated and unable to defend himself.

We can't 'reason' when we don't know who the last two attackers were. We know about Wick and Bowen, but we don't know who was behind Jon. And think on this. Jon had fallen to his knees when the third attacker took him from behind. As you said, he's incapacitated and unable to defend himself at this point. All they had to do to kill him was grab him by the hair, yank his head back and open his throat from ear to ear. Why didn't they? Why did they get him in the back? ...a terrible place to actually attempt to stab someone, actually, because of all of the ribs and vertebrae in the way. Bones are very difficult to pierce with a dagger.

Believe what you want, and interpret it how you want, but the facts are:

1. Martin never used the word 'stabbed'.

2. Martin made Jon an incredibly unreliable narrator who doesn't really know what is happening to him or around him.

3. Martin has used this type of trick before- cliffhanger ending where main character looks to be seriously injured or dead, only for the reader to find out differently in the following chapter.

4. Jon's injuries could range anywhere from minor, serious or mortal. And there's no way to determine what they are at this point in time with the information we are given.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

A knife wound to the neck is not always fatal

All the same, the wildling princess was not beloved of her gaolers. She scorned them all as “kneelers,” and had thrice attempted to escape. When one man-at-arms grew careless in her presence she had snatched his dagger from its sheath and stabbed him in the neck. Another inch to the left and he might have died.

The knife in Jon's stomach could very well have been caught by armor (hence why had to wrench it free). We don't know that there was a fourth knife, for certain.

[Mithras]

George did his best to describe the wounds of Jon as vague as he could get. He admitted that much in an SSM and he gets a certain pleasure from the fandom discussing that scene to death until TWoW comes.

My take is that Jon's wounds are not serious but if there is poison (wolfsbane anyone?) in the daggers, that might be the problem. In any case, I do not think that he will die. He will fall into a coma and Bowen will mistake him for dead and put him into an ice cell to "preserve" his body to show to the Boltons when they come to the Wall (they won't because Stannis faked the PL).

[sj4iy]

George did his best to describe the wounds of Jon as vague as he could get. He admitted that much in an SSM and he gets a certain pleasure from the fandom discussing that scene to death until TWoW comes.

My take is that Jon's wounds are not serious but if there is poison (wolfsbane anyone?) in the daggers, that might be the problem. In any case, I do not think that he will die. He will fall into a coma and Bowen will mistake him for dead and put him into an ice cell to "preserve" his body to show to the Boltons when they come to the Wall (they won't because Stannis faked the PL).

I seriously doubt that Bowen will be in charge at that point.

[Faint]

You don't know who attacked him from behind. For all we know, it was a friend of his knocking him down to get him out of danger.

I say, let me hear your sophistry on why the fourth knife is called the fourth knife. Or how the third dagger "took" him in between the shoulder blades, as in, "guided him gently to the ground with a blunted edge." I am finding this amusing.

By the way, what is your creative explanation for why pain is washing over Jon after Marsh's blade has been caught by his armor? Please, regale us more with your interpretations.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

George did his best to describe the wounds of Jon as vague as he could get. He admitted that much in an SSM and he gets a certain pleasure from the fandom discussing that scene to death until TWoW comes.

My take is that Jon's wounds are not serious but if there is poison (wolfsbane anyone?) in the daggers, that might be the problem. In any case, I do not think that he will die. He will fall into a coma and Bowen will mistake him for dead and put him into an ice cell to "preserve" his body to show to the Boltons when they come to the Wall (they won't because Stannis faked the PL).

I just wonder if Bowen will survive because right before he was stabbed, Jon was trying to form a line.

ADwD, Chapter 69

Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men … “Form a line,” Jon Snow commanded them. “Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen’s men.” The dead man was Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him.

That is the paragraph before Jon yelled at Wick "No Blades!"

The Northmen & Free Folk should come to Jon's aide, regardless of Jon's status.

Most likely, he won't get any help from the queen's men.

[sj4iy]

I say, let me hear your sophistry on why the fourth knife is called the fourth knife. Or how the third dagger "took" him in between the shoulder blades, as in, "guided him gently to the ground with a blunted edge." I am finding this amusing.

Let me hear your take on an axe taking Arya in the back of the head first, oh master of "English has only one interpretation".

By the way, what is your creative explanation for why pain is washing over Jon after Marsh's blade has been caught by his armor? Please, regale us more with your interpretations.

Wasn't me who said that. If you want to insult someone, at least get your facts straight first. I actually contended that he was, in fact, stabbed in the stomach because 'the wound was smoking'. That doesn't tell us how deep or serious the injury actually is, but that the skin was broken.

But I'm guessing you've never been punched in the stomach, because it's pretty damn painful and has been known to make people pass out, even without a weapon.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Faint - gotta give you props for the Scalia reference.

[Faint]

Let me hear your take on an axe taking Arya in the back of the head first, oh master of English.

She got hit by an ax head and was knocked unconscious.

[Mithras]

I seriously doubt that Bowen will be in charge at that point.

They could say that the wildlings turned mad and attacked Jon. Then, the NW and queen's men can join them and drive the wildlings away.

[sj4iy]

She got hit by an ax head and was knocked unconscious.

But somehow it's impossible for Jon to have been hit by the the blunt side or the hilt of the knife, or to simply have received a glancing blow that didn't penetrate deep into his body.