Tower of Joy - Runs Parallel to Chapter 39 - Eddard.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

Hello Everyone,

I noticed something interesting on my third read of AGOT.

Chapter 39 - EDDARD

This is the chapter that begins with the Tower of Joy Dream. I found an interesting parallel between what occurs in that chapter and what occurs at the Tower of Joy. I hadn't noticed it before, because on my first and second reading I never actually paid attention to this infamous quote which I stumbled upon online:

The quote below is NOT from within the chapter itself, but it plays a major role in seeing the parallel; this is a memory that Ned recalls when he and Robert walk down to the Crypts of Winterfell at the start of the book.

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave her hold on life, the rose petals spilling her palms, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

The use of the plural "THEY" indicates that Howland Reed and someone else had found Ned holding the hand of his dead sister Lyanna. This is now widely known and has set precedent for many of the theories out there. If it had been a grammatical mistake, it would have been fixed with later revisions of the book, but until this date it hasn't. It is safe to assume it is not a grammatical mistake.

Anyway this is not the topic we're discussing today. With THAT quote in mind let us look at Chapter 39, perhaps the chapter itself (outside of the dream) holds clues to what actually occurred at the Tower of Joy.

Let us look at some of the numbers in the dream first:

In the dream his friends rode with him... They were seven, facing three.

Seven + Three = Ten

Ned had pulled the tower down afterwards, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

Eight - Ten = Two

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Only two had lived to ride away... Not three? or four, or more? Why?

I believe the answer to WHY only two lived to ride away is within the chapter itself. Because there is no doubt MORE than ONE person came up the Tower of Joy.

The individual who came up the tower with Howland Reed is unknown. I don't know who it is either, nor will you see me claim knowing who it may be; there are theories out there. My argument is that the very individual who came up, must have taken the presumed baby that was conceived and headed off early, while Ned and Howland Reed remained to take the tower down, and make graves for the fallen knights and lords.

This is in the wording of the text, because ONLY TWO had LIVED to ride away; meaning neither baby nor another individual had accompanied them when leaving (Lyanna was dead, and thus doesn't count from the living).

Let us remember that this dream occurs after Jamie Attacks Ned and Ned has been sleeping for days while Jamie had fled the city.

Ned wakes up and to his surprise later, sees that THEY (Cercei and Robert) had come to visit him... When it was supposed to be Robert alone coming for the visit.

Female and Male (maybe important - possibly even a friend (Howland) and an enemy (unknown), or someone from an untrustworthy house? maybe not).

Ned had pushed himself up higher, wincing as his leg trembled with pain. He had not expected Cercei to come. It did not bode well that she had. "Send them in, and leave us. What we have to say should not go beyond these walls." Poole withdrew quietly.

So more than ONE person had come to visit him in his bed, and what they say must remain secret.

Robert:

"Is this how you keep my peace, Ned? Seven men are dead..."

"Eight" the queen corrected.

Eight died... Two lived (Jamie and Ned).

"You know me better than that, Robert," Ned said. "Ask Lord Baelish if you doubt me. He was there."

"I've talked to Littlefinger," Robert said. "He claimed he rode off to bring the gold cloaks before the fighting began".

Was there perhaps someone else at the Tower of Joy that rode off before the fighting began? and mayhaps returned to come up later with Howland? I don't know.

Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out... Ser Meryn Trant stepped into the room, tall and somber in his white armor. "The queen is tired. See her to her bedchamber." The knight helped Cersei to her feet and led her out without a word.

Anyway, Cercei leaves and then Robert and Ned proceed to talk about Rhaegar, the battle of the trident, how Ned needs to do his duty and stay hand of the king, how Ned needs to return to Winterfell, followed by a question about "The Tagaryen girl---". As opposed to Ned needing to return to Winterfell (with his sister's body) and her Targaryen boy? (R+L=J).

​Anyway I hope some of you found these parallels interesting, or not, whatever. I'm sure I've missed some because I'm really tired right now. Maybe there's even more hints in this chapter that we have missed, or maybe that is just me looking too deep into things.

I have some other interesting extrapolations I made from this chapter, but they might be too crackpot; so let us just stay safe with posting the above since it's not too out-there and only adds further evidence to the "THEY" theories.

[ReleaseTheHound]

No very cool the numbers lost and lived through the fight is interesting that it's the same a lot of parallels. Good work!

[matchesmcfly]

Ashara.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3br4mn/spoilers_all_nailed_to_the_floor_ashara_dayne/

[The King Beyond The Wall]

Ashara.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3br4mn/spoilers_all_nailed_to_the_floor_ashara_dayne/

I didn't want to enter any names because I wanted this specifically to be open. I provided the textual evidence of parallels from within the chapter that I believe could be used to make other theories stronger.

Let us use the theory you linked above for example. Rather than saying:

I think there's this idea that Jon Snow was found at the Tower of Joy. But that seems impractical, and doesn't really explain why Ned would go south, have the baby nursed for like a week, and then just head back north again. Jon could well have been nursed by Wylla.

You could use the textual evidence I provided. The fact that more than ONE individual came up with Howland Reed. That the individual left prior to Ned and Howland leaving (since it states in the text that they left alone, just the two of them)... Meaning that mayhaps the baby had been sent with "Ashara" in the example above, while Ned and Howland Reed took the tower down and dug graves for the bodies.

There's a hole however in this theory, the fact that Ned wouldn't let Ashara travel ALONE all the way to Starfall, nor any other woman without "protection". So was there TWO or more people that arrived with Howland Reed?

If we look at the chapter, and if the parallels are indeed intentional, Ned sends Poole away to close the door and leave the ROOM when Robert and Cercei enter (so that no one could hear the conversation).

Could Ashara/Wyla/Whomever had been accompanied by someone? And thus told to stand outside while Ned/Howland+Female discussed a plan?

If it was Ashara indeed, then why not send The Great-Sword DAWN with her? Why keep it, then take it back?

By the way, there's another interesting note.

The petals are blue when Ned first finds Lyanna, but are Blackish when Howland Reed + Unknown arrive (meaning the birth occurred then, the blue petals soaked in blood, and turned black).

I just noticed that. Might add it to the OP later.

[matchesmcfly]

that's not a hole in the theory at all. as someone in that thread pointed out. the same point applies as to why they wouldn't send ashara away with Jon and dawn in the first place.

It would seem plausible that Lyanna sends Ashara away with Jon, and everyone at the Tower makes the comprehensive decision to allow them to go to Starfall unguarded. Sending 3 KG, or even just one, off with Ashara would have put a glaring neon sign that something was up with the baby, and if word had gotten to Robert, there would have probably been a price on Jon's head to begin with. It would have been easy for them to use the obvious reasoning of guarding Lyanna at Rhaegar's orders (married or not) to stay at the Tower of Joy without piquing Robert's (or anyone else's) interest too much.

[barristan-b]

This is gonna sound kinda crazy but what if It was just two survivors...for a bit. Jon was a stillborn but came to life in Starfall thanks to Dawn and Lyanna somehow.

Also, I think the fact that it's noted the giant red stallion of Willum and the sword Dawn left with Ned and Howland is very interesting.

Jon was born a Starg-Targ mix, they likely mounted him on the red stallion to get to Starfall with Dawn in tow.

I think there's some obvious parallels concerning considering a pregnancy death (NN), a sword made from a star (LB), mounted on a red stallion (TSHMTW), it all points to TPTWP and AA. They venture to Starfall to serve as the front for "Ned's Bastard" and Ned actually makes a deal/gets reward from them in returning Dawn, or something magical/interesting happens with Howland.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

that's not a hole in the theory at all. as someone in that thread pointed out. the same point applies as to why they wouldn't send ashara away with Jon and dawn in the first place.

Okay let us just completely skip over the quote I posted at the end which indicates childbirth actually occurred when Ned was present (the colour change of the petals).

The idea that the King's Guard does NOT FLEE, indicates they took an oath; the oath is clearly to keep Lyanna and/or the baby SAFE.

Allowing the infant to travel all the way from The Tower of Joy to Starfall completely unprotected is ridiculous (especially considering the Kings Guard remained at the Tower of Joy).

Maybe after they've been killed Ned made such a decision... Even that doesn't make sense.

1. Ned JUST Promised to keep the baby safe (we presume).

2. Dawn is still there...

In my opinion, Ashara was in Starfall, not at the Tower of Joy. But that's just how I see it. Because I believe Ned witnessed the birth or its final stages at least.

[Lady Sharya]

The connection between Ned 's dream and the events that took place in the same chapter are interesting and I hope you find more parallels.

However, I don't think only two people rode away from the Tof J.

"THEY had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." Meaning only two of the seven against three lived to ride away.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

The connection between Ned 's dream and the events that took place in the same chapter are interesting and I hope you find more parallels.

However, I don't think only two people rode away from the Tof J.

"THEY had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." Meaning only two of the seven against three lived to ride away.

Only two of the ten fighters... Yeah mayhaps.

This helps the theory above at least, it could mean that Ashara/Wyla/Unknown + Jon Snow (or other candidates according to other theories) travelled with Eddard Stark and Howland Reed.

Either way, if we pay close attention to the petals change of colour, for me, it's a clear indication that the birth occurred in front of Ned and not before.

Also:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death

This quote could be used as a foreshadowing for Jon joining the Night's King Party... Jon's eyes could become as blue as the eyes of death, and the quote could serve as a very early foreshadowing of what might happen to him.

[Castellan]

Yes, it means only two of the seven who rode there rode away, and we know that the three there originally died as well because there are eight cairns.

You are right it could mean someone else came and 'found him there' with Howland, but I think it could be a grammatical error, you can't be sure they would choose to correct it if there has been a lot of debate about it.

If someone was there it would make sense if it was a woman and especially one able to breastfeed Jon, or at least to leave immediately and take the baby to the nearest settlement to get a wet nurse for him.

I have to say when I read this chapter the first time I just noted it as showing ignorance of the effort and time involved in demolishing a tower and using the stone to build grave cairns.

[[Deleted]]

Interesting indeed.

Here's something else to consider: People have brought up how logisitcally difficult it would be to transport a dead body without the help of the Silent Sisters, since it would begin to rot after a few days.

Do we know for sure that Eddard brought Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell? Do we know for sure her body is in the crypts? What if she is buried in one of those cairns at the Tower of Joy, meaning....

Someone else survived?

For what it's worth, here is GRRM's take on it:

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

That's a very interesting quote "Aegonzo The Great".

Looking at the chapter now again, at the start there's:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life... They were seven facing three. In the dream as it had been in life...

SO was the rest of the dream just a dream, because running through the dream quickly I don't see any other "AS THEY HAD IN LIFE" quotes. PS: The Lyanna part of the dream is the same as it had been from his memory when Robert visits Winterfell.

Anyway, another very clear parallel I didn't mention earlier:

Tower of Joy

Tower of the Hand

Both are sorrowful for Ned and miserable in his memory/experience.

Edit:

Sansa tower (escape = joy) turns to sadness in the show (tower mission failed). Same tower Bran climbed for joy and fell from and became disabled later.

Beware of any towers starks! Beware!

[Lady Sharya]

Either way, if we pay close attention to the petals change of colour, for me, it's a clear indication that the birth occurred in front of Ned and not before.

Also:

This quote could be used as a foreshadowing for Jon joining the Night's King Party... Jon's eyes could become as blue as the eyes of death, and the quote could serve as a very early foreshadowing of what might happen to him.

It seems unlikely that Ned witnessed Jon's birth because: 1) Lyanna died of a fever, which is more consistent with infection post-delivery, 2) The rose petals that fell from her hand were "dead and black" rather than blood soaked. 3) I can't recall Ned saying anything about blue petals in her hand. I'm not clear on why you say they changed colors.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

Temperatures spark or fevers occur while giving birth too:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Anesthesiology/Anesthesiology/30914

The petals in my view are all over the bed and as she is giving birth she clutches the bed and screams, and clutches elsewhere and screams with movement obviously from side to side. The petals falling from her hand are petals she's picking up and dropping while clutching onto the bed and screaming while giving birth.

They're black because (blue petals + blood) makes the petals appear black. Dead because they've been squashed by the force of her hands clutching.

That's how I see it.

[[Deleted]]

That's a very interesting quote "Aegonzo The Great".

Looking at the chapter now again, at the start there's:

SO was the rest of the dream just a dream, because running through the dream quickly I don't see any other "AS THEY HAD IN LIFE" quotes. PS: The Lyanna part of the dream is the same as it had been from his memory when Robert visits Winterfell.

Anyway, another very clear parallel I didn't mention earlier:

Tower of Joy

Tower of the Hand

Both are sorrowful for Ned and miserable in his memory/experience.

Edit:

Sansa tower (escape = joy) turns to sadness in the show (tower mission failed). Same tower Bran climbed for joy and fell from and became disabled later.

Beware of any towers starks! Beware!

You mean.... Beware of HIGHtowers....

Gerold Hightower?

[The King Beyond The Wall]

Haha

[Lady Sharya]

Anyway, another very clear parallel I didn't mention earlier:

Tower of Joy

Tower of the Hand

Both are sorrowful for Ned and miserable in his memory/experience.

Edit:

Sansa tower (escape = joy) turns to sadness in the show (tower mission failed). Same tower Bran climbed for joy and fell from and became disabled later.

Beware of any towers starks! Beware!

I like this

[The King Beyond The Wall]

I like this

Can the Twins be considered towers?

*Stop it GEORGE! Stop it!*

Wedding = Happy turned red/dead/sad.

[[Deleted]]

Haha

Actually, after I posted that, I started reading about House Hightower. Holy crap, I didn't realize how important they were. Did you know:

1. They have/had a Valyrian Steel sword? (Vigilance)

2. Bran The Builder supposedly helped them build the tower?

3. Hightower is taller than the Wall, and is the tallest man-made structure in Westoeros?

4. The family is very old, most likely decended from the First Men?

I wonder if the Hightowers some important role to play going forward....... Seems like a lot of thought was put into making them a fairly important house.

We know Gerold Hightower was at (And died(?)) at the Tower Of Joy..... But what else?

[Lady Sharya]

Temperatures spark or fevers occur while giving birth too:http://www.medpagetoday.com/Anesthesiology/Anesthesiology/30914

The petals in my view are all over the bed and as she is giving birth she clutches the bed and screams, and clutches elsewhere and screams with movement obviously from side to side. The petals falling from her hand are petals she's picking up and dropping while clutching onto the bed and screaming while giving birth.

They're black because (blue petals + blood) makes the petals appear black. Dead because they've been squashed by the force of her hands clutching.

That's how I see it.

Or they're dead and black because she has been clutching them for a long time (a gift from Rhaegar?) and they really are just dead petals. And, they fell from her hand when she died.