Worst dad in Westeros

[Tyrion Stark]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1419777' date='Jun 28 2008, 22.33']If Randyll hadn't sent Sam to the wall, Sam wouldn't have slain the Other and discovered the secretz that are going to save everyone at the end of the series. Sending Spamwell to the Wall was the only way His son could reach his full potential as a lord and humanitarian. Randyll knew this immediately when Sam was born and made preparations. If He hadn't threatened Sam, Sam wouldn't have taken him seriously.[/quote]

you honestly believe that?!?! you guys will say anything to defend Randyll Tarly (granted I do the same for The Hound). Unbelieveable

[Paxter]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1419777' date='Jun 29 2008, 10.33']Sending Spamwell to the Wall was the only way His son could reach his full potential as a lord and humanitarian.[/quote]

Oh of course! Randyll had Sam's best interests at heart when he sent him to the Wall! How could I have been so blind all this time!

Seriously, the only reason Randyll sent Sam to the Wall was so that he could get rid of Sam for good and make Dickon the new heir of Horn Hill. I know that. You know that. If Randyll really wanted Sam to reach his full potential, he would have sent him straight to the Citadel.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Tyrion Stark' post='1419785' date='Jun 28 2008, 21.47']you honestly believe that?!?! you guys will say anything to defend Randyll Tarly (granted I do the same for The Hound). Unbelieveable[/quote]

Not only do I believe this, but I base my life around the undeniable truth of that hypothesis.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1419867' date='Jun 29 2008, 13.26']Not only do I believe this, but I base my life around the undeniable truth of that hypothesis.[/quote]

Well, I hope you won't be too devastated when Sam "does a Tyrion" and finally relieves Westeros of Randyll Tarly. GRRM has never shied away from patricide...so brace yourself.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419884' date='Jun 29 2008, 00.42']Well, I hope you won't be too devastated when Sam "does a Tyrion" and finally relieves Westeros of Randyll Tarly. GRRM has never shied away from patricide...so brace yourself.[/quote]

I don't think he's killed any invulnerable characters yet, though. Randyll won't go down easily.

[hnv]

randyll had his youngest son and all his people in mind
he can't leave fat craven sam in charge after he is gone and he can't leave their biggest treasure (heartsbane) in his hands
he saw that dickon had more potential and to be honest if I was randyll at that time in history I would have hunted sam down or just send him as a ward to speton utt or the iron islands :)

[Paxter]

[quote name='hnv' post='1419953' date='Jun 29 2008, 17.41']randyll had his youngest son and all his people in mind
he can't leave fat craven sam in charge after he is gone and he can't leave their biggest treasure (heartsbane) in his hands
he saw that dickon had more potential and to be honest if I was randyll at that time in history I would have hunted sam down or just send him as a ward to speton utt or the iron islands :)[/quote]

I think you have perhaps forgotten what this thread is about. Let me remind you: it's about fatherhood in Westeros. It's not about Randyll the lord of Hornhill. It's not about Randyll the proud and fearless commander who wields Heartsbane. It's not about "all the other people that Randyll had in mind". It is about Randyll the father. It is about Randyll and Sam: a father's relationship with his son. Randyll treats his firstborn son, Sam, worse than Tywin ever treated Tyrion and not all that far away from how Craster treated his infant sons. Ergo, he is a terrible father. Whatever Randyll's skills are as a bannerman and a "protector of men": this is the only logical conclusion that you can arrive at on the subject of fatherhood.

[sweet like highgarden]

I have a nominee that every one seems to have overlooked; [b]Senior Clegane[/b].
He has produced two of the most morally challenged men in the whole of Westeros. Not to mention the rumours that had been circulating prior to Senior Clegane’s death in regards to the suspicious demise of his only daughter.
Obviously he didn’t practise time out.

[Paxter]

[quote name='sweet like highgarden' post='1419999' date='Jun 29 2008, 19.56']I have a nominee that every one seems to have overlooked; [b]Senior Clegane[/b].
He has produced two of the most morally challenged men in the whole of Westeros. Not to mention the rumours that had been circulating prior to Senior Clegane’s death in regards to the suspicious demise of his only daughter.
Obviously he didn’t practise time out.[/quote]

Yeah, I think you're right. Clegane Snr. should be added as a candidate for worst dad in Westeros. Gregor is probably one of the only characters in Westeros that you could accurately describe as being "pure evil". So whoever raised him is not likely to have done the greatest of jobs.

[Knight of the Teabags]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419957' date='Jun 29 2008, 10.59']It is about Randyll the father. It is about Randyll and Sam: a father's relationship with his son. Randyll treats his firstborn son, Sam, worse than Tywin ever treated Tyrion and not all that far away from how Craster treated his infant sons. Ergo, he is a terrible father.[/quote]

Expanding on this a bit its worth mentioning how Sam treats Randyll in this relationship. To his credit despite the fact he hates it all Sam does put up with all the horrible things his father puts him through in an attempt to toughen him up: at the end of the day he simply is emotionally the wrong person but Sam does try to fit in with his father's worldview. Furthermore when Sam realises he will never be the son Randyll wants him to be, he proposes becoming a maester which is a brilliant solution to the problem as it both makes way for Dickon to inherit Horn Hill and allows Sam to focus on his strengths. It is also a perfectly honourable out for Sam (he certainly wouldn't be the first nerdy nobleman's son to find his calling the Citadel - hell even Randyll's liege lords, the Tyrells aren't above sending their sons to study as maesters) but no, Randyll Tarly is far too [i]badass[/i] to 'have any son of his wear a chain'! What follows is arguably one of the worse episodes of Randyll physically and emotionally abusing Sam, we have read to date.

Compare that to the way Tyrion treats Tywin. It may not be six of one and half-a-dozen of the other but its pretty close. Tyrion strikes Tywin back in kind whenever he can get away with it and has quite often even initiated unnecessary conflicts with his father. He blatantly parades his whoring utterly shamelessly, arrogantly believes he has the right to marry somebody completely inappropriate behind Tywin's back (everyone who's ever derided Robb as stupid for marrying Jeyne Westerling - what Tyrion did with Tysha was potentially far worse for the Lannisters) and at times he seems to even revel in the amount of shame his actions bring Tywin. Finally there are all the unfounded accusations against Tywin in his head - these include the various supposed attempts Tywin makes to set up Tyrion to be killed (its not really the place but anyone really wants to I'll point out the flaws in Tyrion's opinions case-by-case), Tywin 'stripping' Tyrion of 'his' handship and powerbase after of the end of ACoK (it was never Tyrion's handship anyway and Tyrion was in no condition to hang onto the powerbase at the time) and the heart of Tyrion's resentment towards Tywin - the assumption that Tywin blamed Tyrion for Joanna's death (if anyone can find a quote that collaborates Tyrion's opinion about this, I would love to see it).

Looking at the way the child treats the father in the relationship is quite revealing. I don't know about the rest of you, but in the stakes of 'Bad Dad' award I reckon a father who treats his child awfully when the child is actually trying to please the father is worse than a father who treats his child awfully when the child is actively going out of their way to piss the father off. That said Tywin is pretty awful, but he's Westeros 'Father-of-the-Year' compared to Randyll.

[Matarreyes]

[quote name='Tom O'Sevens' post='1420015' date='Jun 29 2008, 14.35']Compare that to the way Tyrion treats Tywin... ...He blatantly parades his whoring utterly shamelessly, arrogantly believes he has the right to marry somebody completely inappropriate behind Tywin's back (everyone who's ever derided Robb as stupid for marrying Jeyne Westerling - what Tyrion did with Tysha was potentially far worse for the Lannisters) and at times he seems to even revel in the amount of shame his actions bring Tywin. Finally there are all the unfounded accusations against Tywin in his head - these include the various supposed attempts Tywin makes to set up Tyrion to be killed (its not really the place but anyone really wants to I'll point out the flaws in Tyrion's opinions case-by-case), Tywin 'stripping' Tyrion of 'his' handship and powerbase after of the end of ACoK (it was never Tyrion's handship anyway and Tyrion was in no condition to hang onto the powerbase at the time) and the heart of Tyrion's resentment towards Tywin - the assumption that Tywin blamed Tyrion for Joanna's death (if anyone can find a quote that collaborates Tyrion's opinion about this, I would love to see it).[/quote]

Yup, you have the right of it, I fear. I like Tyrion, but the more I think of him the more I find he´s a complete love-craving jerk. Those who do not love him are considered as enemies (daddy being the number one). Since now most of the world does hate him, I sort of fear of what he´ll do from now on.

[TheThirdStrongest]

[quote name='sweet like highgarden' post='1419999' date='Jun 29 2008, 07.56']I have a nominee that every one seems to have overlooked; [b]Senior Clegane[/b].
He has produced two of the most morally challenged men in the whole of Westeros. Not to mention the rumours that had been circulating prior to Senior Clegane’s death in regards to the suspicious demise of his only daughter.
Obviously he didn’t practise time out.[/quote]

I said him earlier

[Drogo]

I only saw this mentioned once in the previous pages but Taryl chained his son to the fucking dungeon wall for what three days I think it was? All because Sam proposed a very rational and intelligent out for his father by sending Sam to the the Citadel he would of secured Dickon's rulership (and does anyone else find that name to be incredbily stupid and Rugratist? no offense to anyone named Dickon but seriously stupid name) and he would gain a family maester which can add loads of wisdom and guidance to a house. PLus Tarly also ventured the idea of hunting down his own son like some fastive pig. I see people trying to rationalize Tarly's decesion to send Sam the Wall as brillliant and helpful. THis was never Tarly's intention he simply wanted his son out of the way, he could of sent him to the CItadel or to the Free Cities hell even made him a septon (sam would make a good priest i think) but no Tarly sends Sam to the coldest harshest most bumfuck place on earth the Wall like damn reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? What a cuntmuffin (exuce all my profainity as it is the demons that possess me for real)

[Daeric]

[quote]I have a nominee that every one seems to have overlooked; Senior Clegane.
He has produced two of the most morally challenged men in the whole of Westeros. Not to mention the rumours that had been circulating prior to Senior Clegane’s death in regards to the suspicious demise of his only daughter.
Obviously he didn’t practise time out.[/quote]

I think to be slightly fair to Senior Clegane from the very little we heard of Sandor pre burning he just seemed like a typical noblemans son. Having your face shoved into flames is going to alter your perception on the world, and I don't really even fault his habdling of the incedent afterwards towards Gregor as I always got the impression that he was scared of Gregor.

How you explain away Gregor is beyond me..


Taryl seems to have selective parenting, to a sane person theres no denying that he was absolute brutal towards Sam in the effort to produce the heir he wanted. But we never hear any rumours regarding mistreatment towards Dickon.

Well Caster is Caster and like many others have said is just on a whole different level.

[redxavier]

Tarly parenting, if you can call it that, involved beating, insult and humiliation, i.e., the stick. I would bet that Sam's penchant for books and feminine interests (in terms of Westerosi feudal society) came about in large part because the carrot approach of his mother worked best and that he felt more at ease with her.

So yeah, bad father and worst of Group B (i.e., not Crastor).

Gregor's upbringing brings to mind the Pa and Clark Kent relationship, his size and strength meant he had phsyical power over others but his father never seems to have guided this power for good (as Pa Kent did for Superman) or taught him any morality.

[Stefan_Sasse]

I vote for Tywin.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Stefan_Sasse' post='1424233' date='Jul 2 2008, 18.22']I vote for Tywin.[/quote]

Hmmm...I think this thread has probably gotten to the point where it's a stalemate between Randyll and Tywin as to who is the worst dad in Westeros (leaving the big daddy, Craster, out of the debate).

Personally, I think that Randyll is marginally the worst. If you look at Tywin's treatment of Tyrion vs. Randyll's treatment of Sam, I would much rather be Tyrion:

Tywin's treatment of Tyrion:
- Not acknowledging Tyrion as the rightful heir to Casterly Rock
- The whole Tysha saga
- Blaming Tyrion for his wife's death
- Showing no gratitude to Tyrion even though he masterminded the defence of King's Landing
- Telling Tyrion not to sleep with a whore even though he was knocking up Shae

Randyll's treatment of Sam:
- Severe mental abuse (e.g. I'll hunt you down like a pig)
- Physical abuse (e.g. temporary imprisonment)
- Gave him the "choice" to go the wall or die in a hunting accident
- Then sent Sam to the wall - which meant he was stripped of his title as heir of Horn Hill
- Generally treated Sam as sub-human for all of his life

I think that analysis does provide evidence that Randyll is the worst father out of the two. And that is without even counting the few "good" things that Tywin did to Tyrion - e.g. giving him the responsibility of acting Hand of the King in KL, and giving him Sansa (although how "good" this was I'm not so sure). Randyll OTOH would never have trusted Sam with anything of importance. In fact, Randyll didn't do anything good to Sam at all (although ultimately Sam going to the wall might be considered a good thing because it eventually got him to the Citadel - this, however, was clearly not intended by Randyll). He just constantly showered him with humilation and punishment.

The remaining argument against Tywin is that he raised Cersei [i]and[/i] had a terrible relationship with Tyrion. How much Tywin can be blamed for Cersei, I'm not sure. I mean, their personalities are quite different (Tywin: calm, collected in control, Cersei: bitter, paranoid, utterly mad). Although they certainly share one personality trait: greed. He also had a pretty poor relationship with Jaime. So what do we think? Does Randyll's treatment of Sam outweigh Tywin's treatment of Tyrion + Cersei + below average relationship with Jaime? I think it does. Just.

[Burr]

you know, not tha I am condoning child abuse, or think Randyl is a swell fella, but I just relaized something:

He wasn't necessarly saying those things because he didn't love Sam. he probably was saying those nasty things in a desperate attempt first to save Sam from being a fat pathetic slob and from embarassing his family. Then it turned to outright disgust that Sam was too pathetic to do it himself. Frustration can quickly trun to anger and nasty words in ANYBODY, especially weh almost anybody can learn some measure of ability to overcome fear. In Sam's case it was something of and unstopable force (Tarly) and an unmoveable object). Got to be an explosion. Everybody acts as if poor old Sam were not culpable in the matter himself. I'm not so sure. He certainly finds some measure of courage when he is dumped on his own... I wonder if Tarly feels any guilt or regret that he wasn't a better father or that he treated Sam that way...It would be really kookie if they meet up again and he's able to recognize Sam as having done great things.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Burr' post='1424671' date='Jul 3 2008, 00.01']Everybody acts as if poor old Sam were not culpable in the matter himself.[/quote]

That's because he's not. Why should Sam feel guilty for being himself? A good parent learns to accept their children for who they are and to strives to foster and develop those areas in which the children have ability. Randyll wanted to turn Sam into something that he wasn't - and when he realised that a transformation was not going to take place he gave his son a choice. Die or go the wall. There's only one guilty party here. Randyll.

[Knight of the Teabags]

[quote name='Burr' post='1424671' date='Jul 2 2008, 17.01']you know, not tha I am condoning child abuse, or think Randyl is a swell fella, but I just relaized something:

He wasn't necessarly saying those things because he didn't love Sam. he probably was saying those nasty things in a desperate attempt first to save Sam from being a fat pathetic slob and from embarassing his family. Then it turned to outright disgust that Sam was too pathetic to do it himself. Frustration can quickly trun to anger and nasty words in ANYBODY, especially weh almost anybody can learn some measure of ability to overcome fear. In Sam's case it was something of and unstopable force (Tarly) and an unmoveable object). Got to be an explosion. Everybody acts as if poor old Sam were not culpable in the matter himself. I'm not so sure. He certainly finds some measure of courage when he is dumped on his own... I wonder if Tarly feels any guilt or regret that he wasn't a better father or that he treated Sam that way...It would be really kookie if they meet up again and he's able to recognize Sam as having done great things.[/quote]

Erm, no...

You see the thing is (as Jon worked out very quickly in the same chapter he first meets Sam) Sam Tarly is not a coward and never was - Sam only thinks himself craven because his horrible father has been telling him it for years. Sam's issue is chiefly that he has very little natural aggression and his problem is that Randyll (bigot that he is) only sees courage purely in physical terms - I personally can't see Randyll calling the likes of Jorah Mormont or Meryn Trant cowards to their faces even though these two are arguably far bigger cowards than Sam ever will be.

Sam Tarly is never going to be a warrior, he's simply too gentle, remember even the 'tough new' Sam in ASoS and AFfC still finds lashing out at people very hard - the Other and Dareon are very exceptional circumstances. But he always had some courage I imagine him telling Randyll that he wanted to be a maester took a hell of a lot of guts as standing up to a bully always does, also recognising that he was never to be the son Randyll wanted is another. The weight issue is I suspect an insecurity thing brought on by Randyll's taunting - Sam wouldn't be the first person to 'comfort eat' because he's unhappy. A lot of his new found self-esteem comes from meeting people who value him for himself (rather than a role model he can never reach) - Jon (whose father taught him a rather different interpretation of courage than Randyll's purely physical view) and Maester Aemon (whose own father, Maekar is suggested in [i]Hedge Knight[/i] as having been against him entering the Citadel) particularly.

As for Randyll eventually recognising Sam's own worth, somehow I can't him ever doing this as Sam seems to be heading in a direction that Randyll see as for 'pansies' only, though I can see Sam getting to a point where he doesn't give a damn what Randyll thinks anymore. Finally I am going to point out something which casts Randyll as a shitty parent in regard to his relationship with Dickon. Remember when Brienne is thinking about the knights who made bets about taking her maidenhood while she riding with Renly, Randyll only steps in to stop things getting nasty when Dickon shames him into acting - there is some evidence he was aware long before this. Randyll's ten year old son is his moral compass rather than the other way round!