How did Ned find out where Lyanna was?

[The Butler of Tarth]

Illyrio doesn't know Young Griff isn't the real Aegon...? (Mummer's dragon and all that)

I believe that this was in reference to the 'YG is Illyrio's son by a Blackfyre woman' theory. One i personally don't like but deem very possible.

[Lykos]

@The Butler of Tarth

I´m sorry, I was leading you off topic. You might go to the Aegon, and Aegon, why can´t he be real? threads. Though you might want to reread the scene of Illyrio and Tyrion in the litter in Tyrion I or II in ADWD, I think you might find out, what I couldn´t by myself. Also the information about the Blackfyre Rebellion in the D & E stories will help.

So you think Ashara told Ned about the Tower of Joy? Does that fit with the fight?

[The Butler of Tarth]

Ok - enough with YG's legitimacy and/or Blackfyre-ness.

TO return on topic - Ashara letting Ned Know where the ToJ is certainly seems possible. She certainly could have known that (as it was somewhere near Starfall if I recall) and, if she really had a history with Ned, she could have hoped that he manages to talk her brother into swearing to Robert or Taking The Black.

The guilt after Arthur's death, combined with the miscarriage and the sight of her beloved leaving to live a life with another woman, would have been more than enough to push her to suicide. Assuming she's dead, that she was indeed in love with Ned, and her baby was really stillborn - but those are topics for different threads..

[The Piece Maker]

There are so many possibilities/questions. With all of the switched babies, people who are assumed dead (though no body is found) and later appear somewhere else, people known to be dead and are brought back to life, almost any thing seems possible. I liked the idea that twin babies could be involved. How about a double baby switch?

Just another question. How does Robert think that Lyanna actually died? Does he think she was raped to death? Does he think Rhaegar kidnapped and murdered her? Does he know that she died in a "bed of blood"? When he and Ned visit the crypt it was all very vague. What was he actually told? I don't think that he ever suspected that there was a baby.

[Hornfoot Manicurist]

I have really enjoyed reading this entire thread. So many good ideas.

It seems unlikely to me that Ashara would tip Ned off about the TOJ if she cared, or even loved, Ned. Everyone says that Arthur Dayne was the ultimate swordsman at the time. I can't believe that she would tip him off knowing her beloved brother was there. Either Ned or Arthur was sure to die, and she seemingly loved them both (or at least loved her brother and was fond of Ned). If she truly threw herself into the sea because she tipped off Ned and he killed her brother, then she really didn't think her "tip" through very well.

Alternatively, if she gave birth to a baby girl that died and the father was a Stark (from a Harrenhal liason) who turned his back on her, she may have been very bitter and felt very hurt by the Starks. In this case, she may have been more than willing to tip Ned off about the TOJ, and she may have hoped that Arthur would introduce Ned to Dawn.

[Jem]

If Ashara did tip Ned off to the location of Lyanna, I think she did it not because she was in love with him but because she knew that he was a good and honorable man. I think she did it because she wanted the innocent baby protected and she thought that Ned would be the man who could save the baby with the least amount of conflict. She was wrong, of course, but I understand the reasoning. If Robert had time to think about where the three KG were and about what happened to Lyanna and if he had found them, there definately, 100% would have been blood. I think that Ashara, who probably liked and respected Ned, thought that he could settle the situation more calmly.

[The Piece Maker]

IMO Ashara told Ned where Lyanna was. She was a Targ loyalist and would have wanted to see the heir safe. Perhaps she would believe that Ned would protect the innocent baby because of his feelings about the murders of Rhaegar's other children. After all the baby was also Ned's blood. Why wouldn't she trust him with the information. Why would she think that Ned would harm anyone at TOJ? Her brother was there to protect the heir as well. Why would if occur to her that there would be a battle when everyone that was at TOJ would agree on protecting the baby. Therein lies the question ...what the hell were they fighting about???

[Patchface12]

Someone told. Someone always tells

[Theo1]

Need to return to my question earlier. Do we know the fight with the KG was before Ned found the Dying Lyanna. No one has given evidence that this is the case (it may be there, but haven't had any body fire it out yet. It would be a big turn on the conventional thinking and wisdom if Ned and companions fought and Kildare the KG and then hid the heir because of the loyalty to his sister and the promise to keep him free from Robert's wrath.

Questions that should be answered. How do six dudes get into the T of J? Why would they need to fight the KG if R was already dead and Ned's sister and the son was who they were protecting? Would Arthur, presumably knowing Ned's character think he would actually pose a threat to kill his sister's son?

[The Piece Maker]

Someone told. Someone always tells

Well, I wish Someone would tell me!

[Theo1]

Quiltmaker asks a key question: why was there a fight? I think my theory that Ned did it, albeit reluctantly, to fulfill the promise to sneak the new stark/targ away because of the promise to Lyanna makes sense. The fight was after he promised her to keep him safe. Killing the KG was the only way to do what Lyanna had asked him to do. Otherwise the KG would know who Jon was, would protect him to death (which would have been an inevitability with Robert having just won).

[The Piece Maker]

Quiltmaker asks a key question: why was there a fight? I think my theory that Ned did it, albeit reluctantly, to fulfill the promise to sneak the new stark/targ away because of the promise to Lyanna makes sense. The fight was after he promised her to keep him safe. Killing the KG was the only way to do what Lyanna had asked him to do. Otherwise the KG would know who Jon was, would protect him to death (which would have been an inevitability with Robert having just won).

What exactly was the promise?

If Ned promised before the fight, then the promise must have been to keep Jon not only safe but anonymous. The KG would not have agreed to the anonymous part, hence the fight. (We do not flee). If Ned promised after the fight, the promise could have been the same, to protect Jon from the new king. Once Ned arrived at ToJ could a fight have been avoided? KG might have allowed Ned to take Lyanna, dead or not, but not the child. IMO the fight was about the child, asuming that there was a child and that he was still there.

[Lykos]

The question of the fight is extensively discussed in the R+L=J and the Tower of Joy, was there really a fight? thread. It is generally believed that Rhaegar took Lyanna as second wife, thus making Jon legitimate heir after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died.

Therefore the 3 KG were present. Since they couldn´t be shure what Ned, a high commander of Robert´s army would do with Jon, they fought. I have some problems with this version of events and one is, how did Ned find out where Lyanna is.

In post #116 I offered a theory where I explain that I think it likely, that there was a truce between the KG and Ned´s men for Lyanna was dying and that Ned was probably led to the ToJ by one of the KG, most likely LC Hightower.

ETA: My post in the Tower of Joy, was there really a fight? thread

I have a very strong feeling that something is amiss in the ToJ scenario.

I think it´s the whereabouts of the KG prior to the meeting with Neds men.

We know Rhaegar left Lyanna at the ToJ (pregnant or with child or not). We know he went to join the war. We know he assumed command of the King´s forces Lywen Martell (of the KG) joined with troups from Dorne. We know that Barristan Selmy (of the KG) was wounded, Lywen Martell and Jonothor Darry (of the KG) were killed at the Battle of the Trident as was Rhaegar.

We know Aerys II was in KL with his son Viserys, wife Rhaella( pregnant),Rhaegar´s wife Elia, her daughter Rhaenys and newborn Aegon guarded by Jaime Lannister(of the KG). There should´ve been at least two more in case the royal family needed to separate,most likely Gerold Hightower LC of the KG. Taking into account that Lywen Martell was meant to guard the family too and was forced to leave because of the "necessity" to lead the Dornish troops.

Leaving two KG to stay with Lyanna. Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent, both believed to be loyal to Rhaegar.

After Rhaegars death at the BoT. Kings Landing is sacked by Lannister troops and Aerys II is killed by Jaime Lannister. From that moment on Viserys is rightful King. Gerold Hightower should be with him. Elia and Viserys fled to Dragonstone with the help of Willem Darry.

Eddard leaves KL after Robert arrived who is presented with Elias´ mutulated children.

Eddard lifts the siege at Storm´s End.

Afterwards Eddard comes to the ToJ with Howland Reed and 5 trusted Northmen.

We know Eddard remembers the following exchange of words:

"I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

Where was Gerold Hightower before this meeting?

Inspired by Post# 32 by Scurvy I like to picture the events as follows:

Ned and his men arrive at the ToJ. Anxious to get to Lyanna, for he probably heard her scream (giving birth, still wounded from giving birth or just wounded). Arthur Dayne steps in the way ready to kill. Ned is being held back by Howland Reed, thus his life is saved.

Howland Reed mediates a temporary truce between Ned and the KG.

Arthur Dayne takes Ned and Howland to Lyanna while Ned´s men are watched by Hightower and Whent.

Ned gives the dying Lyanna an important promise, The three man go out call an end to the truce and then the aforequoted words are exchanged.

There really was a fight at the ToJ. Only Ned and Howland survive.

It makes sense for the KG to be present for a son of Rhaegar, there was enough time to come to the ToJ after the sack of KL. But it looks like they were regarding Rhaegar as their king. I believe that Arthur Dayne as friend of Rhaegar and Oswell Whent where loyal to Rhaegar since before the tournament at Harrenhal, since I believe it was really held to replace Aerys II with Rhaegar wich was prevented by Aerys II´s unforseen presence at the Tourney.

But I can´t place the Lord Commander of the Kings Guard Ser Gerald Hightower.

There is a scene in AFFC where Jaime shows Loras the White Book of the KG and asking him if he ever heard of Criston Cole the "Kingmaker".

[Theo1]

This can be read as Fight before Ned gets to Lyanna, but not necessarily. Thanks for posting this. The question of where the LC of the KG is interesting. I also think Ned's memory of how wraiths with shadow swords is pretty ominous, dark, and suggestive of some magic. Was this a memory when he was feverish in the black cells.

To answerquiltmaker's question, I think the promise it to save and protect Jon, but nothing more specific. Ned, in my view, reasons that hiding the boy as a non Targ, thus sparing him from Robert's rage. The solution is to claim him as his bastard. But, if my thought has merit, the KG would never allow Ned to abscond with him, nor deny his right to his heritage as a targ.

[Lykos]

@Theo1

Yes, a feverish memory in the black cells. So wraith could be added retrospectively, because they´re dead and Ned feels guilty. Also the way he remembers Lyanna in her bed of blood and there was something with the scent of roses or similar, are most likely altered by fever.

[Ser Leftwich]

The theory of Ashara tipping off Ned seems unlikely for the following reasons:

(1) If she had gotten pregnant out of wedlock, wouldn't she leave court to more politely have the baby back in Starfall? This would put her back at Starfall months and months before the Sack. This is assuming that it is poor manners to be a handmaiden for the princess and be pregnant.

(2) If she staying in KL to have the baby and it ended up a stillbirth (as per Barristan), wouldn't that give her a good excuse to leave KL to recuperate back home in Starfall.

(3) If she was still in KL at the time of the Sack, how was she not raped and/or murdered? There was a lot of that going on in the Red Keep. Being a handmaiden for Elia, she would have been with/around Elia, in that scenario, her survival seems unlikely.

(4) If she was in KL at the time of the Sack and tells Ned where the ToJ is, does that leave her enough time to travel back to Starfall before Ned arrives there? We don't know how long it took from Ned arriving in KL to the time he arrives in Starfall. However, the if she was in KL, why would they let her go? She is a useful Dornish hostage. At least until Dorne has been come to the peace, Robert and Jon Arryn would hold on to her. If Jon took Ashara with him with Lewyn's bones to negotiate with Doran, that would not put her back in Starfall in time to run into Ned.

The idea that Ashara Dayne was in KL at the time of the Sack just does not seem credible.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The idea that Ashara Dayne was in KL at the time of the Sack just does not seem credible.

I don't believe I ever made such a claim. Why do you assume that she'd have to be in King's Landing to get information to Ned? Frankly the idea that she was in the capital during the Sack has never occurred to me so I'm not sure why you're arguing against it when I never suggested it in the first place.

[Ser Leftwich]

I don't believe I ever made such a claim.

Just debunking and bumping, in anticipation of posting a theory. (It came up elsewhere and I wanted to move to a thread that was actually about Ned's ToJ knowledge.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just debunking and bumping, in anticipation of posting a theory. (It came up elsewhere and I wanted to move to a thread that was actually about Ned's ToJ knowledge.)

But your assertion that it's unlikely is based on the unlikeliness of her being in King's Landing. I've never argued that she was in King's Landing when she tipped Ned off.

[Ser Leftwich]

Here comes the crackpot: Ethan Glover knew the location of the ToJ.

When Rhaegar returns to KL, in preparing for the Battle of the Trident, he finds out that Ethan Glover is still alive and in KL. Rhaegar talks to Ethan, to hear Brandon's side of the story. In the conversation, Rhaegar mentions she is safe in a tower at the north end of the Prince's Pass. Ethan can then tell Ned.

A little loony, but possible.