[ADWD Spoilers] Bran's Endgame

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't know about the whole caves part getting him south of the Wall. If the kiddies had something like that, why not just have Bran walk north through them instead having him wander through the snow?

I think he's in the tree for good now and will be using his warging to help others.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not convinced that Bran will be "just" a tree, but I do think that people expecting him to take a physical, dragon-riding role in whatever battle occurs might end up being disappointed.

I'm also leery of the Children of the Forest and their motives. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "evil," but nor do I think they're entirely benevolent in the way that we understand that word.

[Auska]

Does anyone have a copy of ADWD at hand? I was wondering about the descriptions of (the climates of) the crypts at Winterfell and the cave where he is now. I remember the climate in the crypts of winterfell is mentioned over and over again, does it match that of the cave in the north (further than cave climates would :P, by repeating the exact wording or something like that).

Some how I think Bran will return to the crypts of Winterfell. Could be, as mentioned in earlier posts, as a way of passage from beyond the wall.

Estimating from the KL-Wall distance, Bran's at least 500 miles from Winterfell, probably nearer 750. There's very little that can be deduced from the climates.

[Auska]

I'm also leery of the Children of the Forest and their motives. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "evil," but nor do I think they're entirely benevolent in the way that we understand that word.

They fought alongside men before (and made a pact on the division of Westeros) but I suppose it's possible they've come to harbour some resentment since.

[RichardHaro]

I'm just wondering at this point whether Bran, Arya, Catelyn, Sansa and Rickon will ever re-unite. I certainly hope Sansa and Arya do.

[the Ned]

Jojen's sense of impending doom "he (bran) is not the one who needs to be afraid", Bran (via Hodor) finding other greenseers ensconced in their weirwood thrones/cages looking at him, and most particularly this quote regarding the passing of the Children of the Forest/Little Wise Men of the Forest: bran thinks (in italics) "Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill." Also notice in the last bit of his chapter while he is looking through Winterfells heart tree he witnesses a blood sacrifice.

This makes me think that possibly (not probably) some of The CoF are summoning the Others and the wights in attempt at "bloody vengeance". And perhaps Bran was brought to them to coordinate the attack on man as the Last Greenseer.

I totally hope this suspicion is wrong by the way, I'd hate to see Bran being used as an agent of the Others.

This idea could be a twist on Tolkien and the passing of the Elves..but what if the Elves didn't want to pass, what if they wanted to reclaim Middle Earth?

(part of this is a repost)

[Theo1]

Remember how Bran is introduces as the climber at Winterfell. Sure, he loved climbing, but why? The description makes it clear that he like to be above and looking down on everything, seeing things others cannot, and not being seen by others if he does not want to be. Sure, he wanted to be a knight, but he is comign to terms with being able to see many, mnay things, slip into the skins of many, many things. He may be phycially grounded, but let's not take away the sprit and soul and intelligence part of this (there are some pretty impressive people who are phycally unable to do much). He is basically becoming a demi-god, and will play a huge role. He may be misguided and not doing all the right things now, and maybe his mentor is a bit dark, but it al;eady seems like he will be stronger than Bloodraven, and his love for family throughout the book is pretty solid. He is (or seems to be) inflencing people now (perhaps even in the past - he reaches out to Jon, he gets Theon to "rememeber his name," etc.

Martin, in an interview, apprently confirmed the possibility of dragon warging. Bloodraven keeps promising flying. Warging a raven did not seem to be a huge event for Bran, so possible the form of the story is that warging of somethign bigger is to come. And there is still that missing dragon egg that Bloodraven took and put in a safe place.

[Team Wildings]

Why do you think he might go over to the darkside?

Have I missed something? Are CoTF considered to be the darkside? Or is Bloodraven the darkside?

Just because we don't understand a whole lot about them yet, doesn't mean they are dark per se. If anything, I got the feeling they are the unsung heroes of Westeros.

It was something Melisandre said after thinking she might have dreamt of the Great Other. "the wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with wolf's face...they were his servants, surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers. "

It sure sounds like Bran and she believes that he might be the champion for the others but I have been wrong before.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Remember how Bran is introduces as the climber at Winterfell. Sure, he loved climbing, but why? The description makes it clear that he like to be above and looking down on everything, seeing things others cannot, and not being seen by others if he does not want to be. Sure, he wanted to be a knight, but he is comign to terms with being able to see many, mnay things, slip into the skins of many, many things. He may be phycially grounded, but let's not take away the sprit and soul and intelligence part of this (there are some pretty impressive people who are phycally unable to do much). He is basically becoming a demi-god, and will play a huge role. He may be misguided and not doing all the right things now, and maybe his mentor is a bit dark, but it al;eady seems like he will be stronger than Bloodraven, and his love for family throughout the book is pretty solid. He is (or seems to be) inflencing people now (perhaps even in the past - he reaches out to Jon, he gets Theon to "rememeber his name," etc.

Exactly.

Personally, I find it surprising to see how most people feel about Bran's arc in ADwD (he's a bloody tree!, Bloodraven's like the Emperor and Bran's his Darth Vader!, the CotF are evil!, etc.). Especially, taking into consideration the character's options.

In a brutal society such as Westeros, were vulnerable groups are shunned and mistreated, what was Bran's destiny, had he stayed above the ground? To be looked down as a cripple, the way he was, even as the Prince of Winterfell? Never to be able to do any of the things he loved, such as climbing, or dreamed of doing, such as becoming a knight, feeling sorry for himself all the time instead?

If there's any resignation in Bran, that started long before he even came into the cave. How many times did he sigh in sadness, remembering that he could never fulfill his dreams now, as he watched swordsmen practicing in the yard? Instead of that, the kid has a chance to escape his broken body now and use his special abilities as described in the post above by Theo1. It's all a matter of him learning from BR and then putting all that knowledge to good use, which I'm sure he will.

Personally, I was thrilled for Bran when I read that he had finally fulfilled his quest, but I look at it as only the first part of his journey. I know GRRM is pretty cruel with his characters and story, but to have built up the Bran-3EC storyline as a sort of light at the end of the tunnel for the kid, after all that had happened to him, his family, his home, only to show that it was a trap set by some very devious alien creatures underground makes no sense.

[Theo1]

It was something Melisandre said after thinking she might have dreamt of the Great Other. "the wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with wolf's face...they were his servants, surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers. "

It sure sounds like Bran and she believes that he might be the champion for the others but I have been wrong before.

She could just be misinterpreting things (again). This vision did do some odd things to her physiologically, pain and pleasure (pretty sexual). And, think about the analogy she drew. Stannis is a false champion (or so it seems). So, by logical form, it is a false conclusion for BR and Barn to be servants of the other.

[Tagganaro]

She could just be misinterpreting things (again). This vision did do some odd things to her physiologically, pain and pleasure (pretty sexual). And, think about the analogy she drew. Stannis is a false champion (or so it seems). So, by logical form, it is a false conclusion for BR and Barn to be servants of the other.

Plus, I love how everyone just assumes that R'hllor is the "good" god so to speak. This is the same god who approves of sacrificial burnings and many of his "servants" are slave children who are forced into his service. Like with most things in ASOIAF, I believe that R'hllor is not so much good and the Great Other is not so much evil. More shades of grey. I'm pretty sure I've heard George hint somewhere that the Other's aren't all evil.

[Team Wildings]

Plus, I love how everyone just assumes that R'hllor is the "good" god so to speak. This is the same god who approves of sacrificial burnings and many of his "servants" are slave children who are forced into his service. Like with most things in ASOIAF, I believe that R'hllor is not so much good and the Great Other is not so much evil. More shades of grey. I'm pretty sure I've heard George hint somewhere that the Other's aren't all evil.

I agree I don't think R'hllor is the good god and the Others are all bad (maybe mostly) but we don't know much about them still. And Mel does have the vision that Bran is connected with them, she has been wrong in the past but she is the best at reading the flames. I am saying if The Others are perhaps more grey than just evil why can't Bran be their Champion.

[1000th LC of the NW]

Just a few more things:

I don't understand how you can read the three Bran chapters in ADWD and not pick up on tge obviously very sinister undertones. Something is not right down in those caves. Something is very very wrong.

I like the idea of Bran returning to the crypts in WF to "settle down." It echoes the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" adage quite nicely.

I think that Bran will escape the caves, probably through the underground network, once his "training" is complete and the nature of the CotF is revealed. They have many reasons to hate mankind--multiple wars, the peace pack forged was broken and never set up again. It's possible that the war of the five kings was simply the last straw. The CotF are very likely fed up with the wanton destruction caused by man.

Bloodraven is teaching Bran without any regards to morality (why present the 'rules of warging' if not to emphasize how Bran has broken them), which has been a cornerstone of the Stark "good guys" since the beginning of the series. Bran, like Arya, is on a path that leads places they probably shouldn't tread. I think that there is some redemption for both of them somewhere down the line.

Bran has:

Warged birds ("spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come out again")

Eaten human flesh (in and out of skin)

Warged Hodor (to the point where he is described akin to an abused dog)

Bran is at risk. When we last see him, his danger is real and palpable and I think that he recognizes it for the first time.

And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth...but as his life flowed out o him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

There are some very interesting things going on in that sentence. The first is the phrase "broken boy," which obviously suggests Brans's naïveté, his handicap, and his innocence.

By referring to him as "Brandon Stark" GRRM is empowering Bran--he's no longer a broken boy, he is a man, and a Stark at that. The North remembers, and so does Bran. I think we'll see him react to his current situation accordingly.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Just a few more things:

I don't understand how you can read the three Bran chapters in ADWD and not pick up on tge obviously very sinister undertones. Something is not right down in those caves. Something is very very wrong.

I assume this is addressed to all of us who didn't find anything sinister in Bran's chapters, so I guess I can provide a reply.

I think that Bran will escape the caves, probably through the underground network, once his "training" is complete and the nature of the CotF is revealed. They have many reasons to hate mankind--multiple wars, the peace pack forged was broken and never set up again. It's possible that the war of the five kings was simply the last straw. The CotF are very likely fed up with the wanton destruction caused by man.

Okay, so Bran escapes the caves and then...what? What is a 9, 10 yr. old child, paralyzed from the waist down, supposed to do all on his own in the big vast world?

As for the CotF, as I said in another thread, I see them as GRRM's equivalent to JRRT's elves in TLotR. In other words, a superior race that is dwindling, except that unlike Tolkien, where the elves were migrating to the Undying Lands of the West, the CotF are becoming extinct, which is right in line with ASoIaF's dark tone, IMO. Hence, I believe they look at the whole situation the same way as the elves did: as outsiders, providing guidance for mankind in their waning years and nothing more.

I could be wrong, of course, but the fact that they "sing while man kills" (paraphrasing) seems to indicate that this is a peaceful race of beings, older and much wiser in nature than mankind.

Bloodraven is teaching Bran without any regards to morality (why present the 'rules of warging' if not to emphasize how Bran has broken them), which has been a cornerstone of the Stark "good guys" since the beginning of the series. Bran, like Arya, is on a path that leads places they probably shouldn't tread. I think that there is some redemption for both of them somewhere down the line.

IMO, Bloodraven is teaching Bran what he needs to know. We all know that winter is coming and the Others with it. In full force, apparently. Hence, it would seem that this is no time for hesitation but actually, a time to overlook certain things in order to do what must be done in order to save the world from the eternal darkness that seems to be linked to the Others (if that is in fact, the direction this thing's headed, which IMO, seems to be clear since the very prologue in AGoT).

Bran is at risk. When we last see him, his danger is real and palpable and I think that he recognizes it for the first time.

Well, I guess everyone's been at risk pretty much since the first book. Especially Bran, who suffered two assassination attempts even before we had reached the first half of the first book. IMO, this is right in line with the hero's journey, since they're always in peril and always tempted by darkness. Who's to say that Bloodraven isn't testing Bran's resolve and true nature? If I was him and my intentions were to choose a worthy successor, I certainly would try to make certain that I was choosing wisely.

And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth...but as his life flowed out o him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

There are some very interesting things going on in that sentence. The first is the phrase "broken boy," which obviously suggests Brans's naïveté, his handicap, and his innocence.

By referring to him as "Brandon Stark" GRRM is empowering Bran--he's no longer a broken boy, he is a man, and a Stark at that. The North remembers, and so does Bran. I think we'll see him react to his current situation accordingly.

I agree with all of the above. Excellent observation. I guess we're just not looking at Bran's potential reaction in the same way.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I just want Bran to warg Nymeria's giant wolfpack and kill thousands of Others in the great battle. It's all I ask GRRM! Please???

[Guest]

ADWD sets up how weirdly unethical Bran's warging has become. In the prologue, Varamyr (sp?) sets out what skinchangers should never do: change into a person, eat people as an animal, etc. All of which Bran has done, even if he didn't realize the wrongness of his actions. I think we're going to see some consequences for these actions, if nothing else.

I think you have a good point. I posted this in another thread as well, but I really really hate Bran for warging into Hodor. It's so sad to read how terrified Hodor is and I think Bran is a selfish asshole for continuing to do this to him. The rest, whatever. Eat manflesh if you come across some, have sex with wolves while warged, whatever. But to use someone as loyal of a friend as Hodor in that way is just really sad to me. I absolutely believe that the Varamyr chapter was included to set up consequences for Bran.

[The Greatmatt]

I just want Bran to warg Nymeria's giant wolfpack and kill thousands of Others in the great battle. It's all I ask GRRM! Please???

Please no. I want Arya to come back as a badass, faceless ninja wolf queen. That honor should go to Arya over Bran because Bran already has the the greenseeing immortality thing, and plus, Bran was always a whiny little wimp relying on kids slightly older than him to have any semblance of a smart plan while the slightly older Arya navigated her way across a war-torn continent leaving a trail of dead villains in her wake.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Please no. I want Arya to come back as a badass, faceless ninja wolf queen. That honor should go to Arya over Bran because Bran already has the the greenseeing immortality thing, and plus, Bran was always a whiny little wimp relying on kids slightly older than him to have any semblance of a smart plan while the slightly older Arya navigated her way across a war-torn continent leaving a trail of dead villains in her wake.

Arya gets to be a crazy ninja assassin or whatever! Bran is being set up as the super-warg among the Starks, not her. Obviously Nymeria herself will be warged by Arya, but only Bran has the power to warg hundreds of wolves at once (IMO).

[The Greatmatt]

Arya gets to be a crazy ninja assassin or whatever! Bran is being set up as the super-warg among the Starks, not her. Obviously Nymeria herself will be warged by Arya, but only Bran has the power to warg hundreds of wolves at once (IMO).

Nym is already commanding the army though. They are already unleashing havoc as is, and Arya taking command will just make it cooler.

Yeah it's cool if Bran can literally command hundreds of animals at once...but if he can do it for wolves, he could do it for plenty of other things too. No need for him to encroach on Arya's awesomeness-turf.

[SamwellStark]

Wasn't Varamyr taught that human warging was like a cardinal sin by the other wildlings though? Brand didn't really have that luxury. I definitely agree there is something morally wrong with warging into another human, but I can't remember the times he has done it. He accidentally did it in the tower when the wildlings were outside, and he did it one time to fight off the others (I don't fault him for those), but its not like he was really taking advantage of Hodor, he was doing it to help them both.

There are probably other times I am forgetting though, in which case....yeah that's not cool.

Varamyr was taught by a wildling though - warging will have been a children of the forest/greenseer thing, and as they are a different species to the humans, it'll be no different than Bran warging into a wolf etc.

So if Bran ends up as a greenseer there shouldn't really be anything morally wrong with hum warging into a human... and Bloodraven as a greenseer won't see anything wrong with this anyway - so i doubt Bran will be taught it's a cardinal sin.