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About Tagganaro

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    I know SUN TZU hrurrr jizz everywhre.

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  1. To that point I'd put pretty much all of Theon's chapters in ADWD up there, with a special nod to his first chapter in ADWD, where you're not really sure who it is at first but then it hits you with it being Theon (although if I recall, they still don't even use Theon's name, just "stark's ward" and other indirect signifiers).
  2. I think there was a lot of character work going on with Brienne and Tyrion (Tyrion coming to terms with his murder of Tywin and Brienne her complicated feelings towards Jaime and all her competing oaths), but yes, completely agree that the plot was meandering at best for both of them. And considering how much plot still seems to be left and required to finish the books, it's tough for me to reconcile that with all the character work done in AFFC. I think what I like more about ADWD is that even though there is something a bit repetitive about Jon's clashes with Bowen Marsh and Dany's with the slavers, it feels like the plot is moving a lot more, with Jon and Dany making decisions that affect the broader world and mark important changes. In ADWD, Tyrion really only seems to be doing that when he's with Young Griff and Jon Con, which is why I liked those chapters the most out of his and could do with less Penny and Jorah character work. While I can appreciate Brienne's character development and the in-depth look at the decimation of the Riverlands due to the War of the 5K, I can't say I really care too much about the broader plot implications of Meribald and Dog, Nimble Dick, Illifer and Longbough, etc. Whereas I find it easier to care about Jon allowing the wildings through the Wall, provoking Ramsay, taking a loan from the Iron Bank, or Dany's destabilizing actions in Slaver's Bay, or Tyrion's manipulation of Young Griff and Jon Con, etc.
  3. I'm not sure if Bowen has blundered from his point of view. While we may find out there was some longer-standing conspiracy to kill Jon and this was the result of it, I've always viewed the assassination as a desperate reaction to Jon's Shieldhall speech. Essentially, Jon taking wildlings to go attack the Warden in the North/the Lannister allies confirms Bowen's worst fears and Bowen sees his only option as killing Jon to prevent that from happening. From that perspective, I'm not sure Bowen really has any sort of plan past taking out Jon, and we can take his words/tears at face value that he believes what he is doing is for the good of the Watch. I see one possible way to prevent immediate bloodshed and that's a mix of confusion about what happened and possibly Tormund's "blood price"- the hostages the NW took from the wildlings to prevent bad behavior. It's possible that Bowen moved quickly upon exiting the shieldhall speech to put in motion plans to secure these hostages. I think it's unlikely he could do it so quickly but possible. I also think that from Bowen's perspective killing Jon keeps him cool with the Boltons despite the fact that he won't be able to deliver the hostages the PL demands. He can then respond to Ramsay by saying "I killed the guy who took your wife, we don't have her here but if/when she does show up we will return her immediately." It's obviously not ideal but for Bowen gives him some kind of ground to stand on to stay in the Boltons and Lannister's good graces.
  4. This tends to be my issue in a nutshell- GRRM is expanding the story and the POVS to tell stories that he wants to tell, rather than working with what he's got. I know it may be somewhat impossible, but instead of expanding POVS he should be simplifying and condensing. If he can't get a POV to a location that he wants to tell a story from that's part of the problem IMO and the major reason why AFFC and ADWD are so bloated with little movement on the main story arc front. I could maybe understand adding one POV each for Iron Islands and Dorne, but the multiple POVs are a major reason why ADWD couldn't even fit the battles in that it was clearly building towards. I understand your point but by adding these POVs with future stories in mind for TWOW he is only continuing to expand the series which has already gotten out of control. But I will retract some of my criticism if Aeron and Areo become great POVs. As I said above, I would be more forgiving of Dorne if it was simplified to a single new POV such as Arriane. This makes sense to me. Arys and Quentyn POVs bother me since they are literally dead-end and could easily have been added to existing Arriane and Dany chapters, cutting out the fat and cutting down on total pages.
  5. I agree with this so much. I can appreciate AFFC a little more on reread, but I'm still mostly just bored by it. The 22 chapters you mentioned are for the most part completely uninteresting to me (I'd say out of them, only the King's Moot really captured by attention). The Brienne stuff I liked a lot more on reread, but that's not saying much. I went from actively hating it to just being mostly bored by it. And don't get me started on Aeron, Arys and Aereo even having POVs. ADWD is much more enjoyable for me because the Dany, Jon, Theon chapters are really good and although the Tyrion stuff can drag at times, I really enjoyed his time with Jon Con and Aegon and it ends with a bang with him joining the Second Sons. I do have to knock down ADWD because it doesn't get to the battles of Mereen and Winterfell, and instead wastes too much time on Quentyn, Areo (only 1 POV I think but still annoying), Victarion (I enjoyed these chapters but still think pointless), Barristan and Jon Con.
  6. I don't think they were "lost" after running out of book material, nor do I think the show was "so bad." But to each his own. I think the final season was sloppy and rushed, and overall disappointing, but I was still thoroughly entertained by it and still think it was among the best TV I've seen this year (I'd put Episode 2 of this season as a top 5, if not top 3 all-time personally for the show). And I had my issues with Season 7 as well but it's still largely considered to be among the best seasons, not to mention Season 6 is widely considered to be one of the best. So it's not like they were completely lost after running out of book material, just that I think S 8 in particular was very rushed and sloppy. I mean, they had her kill Missandei and send Bronn after Jaime and Tyrion, as well as the stuff with Euron. It wasn't ideal to say the least, but it was much better than whatever the hell they were doing with the Night King. But yes, I obviously agree that she was largely wasted in Season 8. I will repeat that I think it's unfair to expect the show to do something that simply wouldn't be entertaining nor would it fill any time. I don't understand why we would differentiate popular based on whether they are loved or hated- either way the character is still popular. Not that it's dispositive, but pretty much any list of the best characters on GOT will have Cersei top 5 and if you asked anybody who was the best villain on GOT they'd say Cersei hands-down. From that perspective, I think it's easy to understand why they kept her around.
  7. This may be true or not, but I think it's sort of unfair. This may be "logical" but it's not entertaining. I've said this before, but showrunners were kind of held hostage by Lena Heady and Cersei. She was too popular and too good in that role for them to kill her off when they probably should have. As a result, they had to plan for her to be one of the final villians, and Dany just easily dispatching of her with no battle would not have made for good TV. Beyond that, I also think the show never really knew what to do with the dragons- they were overpowered or completely nerfed depending on the situation. It's tough to reconcile Rhaegal being easily killed by a few crossbows on moving ships while Drogon is able to completely annihilate both those same ships plus all the wall-mounted crossbows at KL without ever being in any danger. I was referring to mad more from a "mad king" POV, in terms of burning KL. I honestly think Dany's story had it gotten more time would have been very good- the idea of her so badly wanting to be perceived as a hero, doing the heroic thing helping to save the realm from the NK, only to have her watch all her closest allies die and watch as the remaining ones pick Jon over her is pretty awful. I think with just a few more episodes after Winterfell exploring her increasing anger, paranoia, and desperation could have done wonders. Instead, like most of the past 2 seasons, it was insanely rushed. I can't really disagree with this. I think it was overall very sloppy and there were too many loose threads, plus missed opportunities at the end (I think the finale and the Battle of Winterfell were both way too simple and straight-forward and was disappointed by the lack of any real twists, it felt a bit perfunctory IMO). I will say however that I cut the showrunners a little more slack, I think they were put in an impossible situation as well as being just burnt out from the whole thing. Part of me can look back and wish HBO had said no when D & D asked for the shorter seasons to wrap it up and brought in some new fresh faces and minds. But of course I can understand why that didn't happen.
  8. Of course, I'm not talking about what Dany eventually did. She became an outright mad villain. Again, I can't quite remember what Jon said back in Season 7, but it was something along the lines of "showing up with your dragons to burn cities is more of the same." Of course, burning the red keep wouldn't be burning a city, but it's fair to assume there would be some blurring of the lines there as a surgical operation like that would require there to be no resistance or reaction to a dragon suddenly showing up. After Jon says that, we see Dany decide against it and instead attack in the "loot train battle" (btw, the dumbest battle name ever ). I think again, Dany in S7 is really into the idea of being a hero, and even in S8 assumes she will be welcomed like a hero to KL. In my opinion, there was a good story to tell with respect to Dany's descent into madness, it was just insanely rushed.
  9. I think the final 2 seasons you could really see the strain this series was placing on D & D. I don't think they really wanted to do it anymore, hence cutting down the episode orders to bare minimum levels when they needed 10+. I get it though...I don't think D & D are nearly the idiots they are painted out to be, just think they got overwhelmed with this insanely complex source material and two years isn't really that long when you think about it in comparison to GRRM taking 10 years to write a single book. I'll always feel a bit sympathetic for them beyond all the awards they've won and money they've made from this, I do honestly believe they only wanted to and signed up to adapt GRRM's works and then got stuck up a creek without a paddle when GRRM stopped writing at a reasonable pace. The Starbucks and production errors really are crazy...I wonder if due to all the potential spoilers they really cut down on the amount of people who could see the finished product and that played into it, with only a few people being able to spot errors like that. I don't think it was that insane that Dany didn't roll up to KL, she wanted to and then Jon talked her out of it by appealing to her wanting to be a hero and different from other rulers. But yeah, the wight hunt was without a doubt the dumbest thing the show ever did. Season 7 was really written on a house of cards with that concept.
  10. agreed. I felt this was a little abrupt but otherwise well-explained. As this thread has discussed, Dany has lost everything over the course of this season. Everyone she cared about (besides for Grey Worm, but who cares about him ) is either dead or betrayed her in some fashion. She lost Jorah and Missandei in succession, then watched Tyrion, Varys, and finally Jon "betray" her. I thought the stuff with Jon was actually pretty devastating- both where she begged him not to tell Sansa about his true identity, and finally here when she makes one last effort to rekindle their romance. So you have this angry and devastated and defeated person who finally achieves her dream, yet once the bells tolled she could see how empty everything was. Nobody was cheering her, she was the foreign invader Randyll Tarly told her she was.
  11. Yes? I would say that subverts expectations . I assume Jon is going to have to kill her which will be pretty devastating. And then he probably says "F it, I'm going North with Tormund and Ghost."
  12. What is so confusing to me is that I've always viewed the "ploy" as Mance wanting to live out his Bael the Bard fantasy- disguising himself as a singer with spearwives as washerwomen to infiltrate a castle and steal the Lord of Winterfell's daughter (i.e. "Arya"). But that would mean he never thought the girl he was supposed to rescue at Long Lake actually was Arya. That doesn't really make sense though since we see Mel genuinely believes the girl at Long Lake is Arya, especially as she's trying to win Jon's trust so desperately she wouldn't lie about it. So yeah, I'm just as confused as anybody. It's possible his "ploy" doesn't have anything to do with rescuing "Arya" and maybe just relates to the crypts of Winterfell which he shows a healthy interest in through the spearwives interrogating Theon about it. But that again raises the question of why spearwives would be needed to "infiltrate" Winterfell when at the time he left Castle Black Winterfell was an abandoned mess of ruins full of squatters. Yes, the clan lords behavior in particular is very suspicious. They seem to show no interest in a wildling apocalypse scenario but show up to bring wet nurses to help with the babies at the Wall and witness a wedding between Alys and Sigorn? I'm not buying that at all. Val is such a suspicious character- she is definitely hinted at as being much much more than she appears to be. I know there was a thread a while back about Val being some kind of priestess or religious leader of the wildlings. Can't seem to recall what the title of it was. Lets not forget that Val was somehow able to locate Tormund on her own in the dead of winter on a half-blind horse without even being bothered by the Others who were picking off strays from Tormund's band whenever they got the chance. She also said something to the effect the North holds no ghosts for me which is an interesting turn of phrase as it relates to the Others and wights. Finally lets not forget the description Jon gives of her which seems intentionally designed to be reminiscent of the Night's Queen who controlled the Night's King.
  13. Yes it's very clear that Jon sends Mance to Long Lake to rescue "Arya" and that's all Jon considered Mance doing. This is made clearer after the fact when Alys Karstark shows up and Jon wonders several times where Mance is and what he's doing. What interests me about all this is Mance mentioning "having a certain ploy in mind" that involves spearwives directly in front of Jon...yet we get absolutely no follow-up from Jon on this and then after the fact Jon never even considers Mance mentioning this ploy. Mance mentions that the spearwives will help him gain "Arya's" trust but that does not explain the "certain ploy" aspect of Mance's plan, which Mance clearly differentiates from his mission to rescue Arya at Long Lake. Knowing Mance and his obsession with Bael the Bard and how he shows up as Abel replaying that scenario using the spearwives as cover, it may be safe to assume that his "ploy" always involved disguising himself as a singer and infiltrating a castle. But that leaves just as many questions...Was Mance intending to go to Barrowton and then met up with Umber or another Northerner who told him the wedding had been moved to Winterfell? If so what was the point of infiltrating the castle and needing the spearwives in the first place, since Mance would have no reason to suspect that "Arya" would be there and not at Long Lake? And if that wasn't the case what was Mance intending to do? Presumably he wouldn't need the spearwives to infiltrate Winterfell if there was no wedding there since Winterfell was an abandoned mess full of squatters before the Boltons went back there. So many questions about that.
  14. I don't think it was something about Jon's looks...Cat heard the servants in Winterfell talk about Ashara Dayne being the mother and confronted Ned about it. I don't think it had anything to do with Jon's looks as far as I remember.
  15. I should have put it more bluntly- Nobody gives a shit about this on the show lol. Which is fine and makes sense to me.
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