Romance in ASoIaF

[Lyanna Stark]

Political marriages don't have to be unhappy, I suppose the political side isn't going to work if they are actually unhappy. They have to be functioning to be sucessful marriages, I would have thought.

And there is as you say some potential for choice if you are not the heir although that doesn't always work out either (Jorah and his Hightower sweetheart). I suppose that returns to your point about the balance. A cynically political match like Sansa and tyrion is as bad as an unrealistic match in which there is no honest appreciation of the other person and what both want as in the case of Lynesse & Jorah.

Yes, and it seems the current generation is suffering the consequences both of the unrealistic starcrossed lovers (like Rhaegar/Lyanna, Jorah/Lyonesse, Tyrion/Tysha) and the forced cynical ones (Cersei/Robert, Lysa/Jon Arryn etc) and they need to try and redress the balance between the hardline marry only for political gain and the eloping lovers from the songs.

Anyhow the ending is meant to be bittersweet!

With as many people dead as there already are, how can it be anything but!? ;) There are still lots of people left to kill off, too, and for the Starks any ending will be bittersweet at the best, since Ned, Cat and Robb are gone, Bran is at best a cripple and possibly also a tree4life. Winterfell is sacked and burnt and almost everyone the Stark children knew and loved are dead. Even if Sansa or Arya can somehow manage to marry for love or at least affection and/or friendship, it would still not exactly be a happy ever after, due to everything that has already gone down and how all their innocence has been so brutally ripped away. And now Winter is coming as well! It's definitely going to get worse before it gets better.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've noticed this too. We also see several women in positions where they may be able to assume power without the aid of a husband. Asha, Sansa, and Arianne espeially. I've wondered before if Martin is setting it up so that at the end some of the women assert control over their destinies, including choice of husband, in a way that we had not previously seen in the novels. It would be an awful lot of set-up in several female characters for them only to settle down to be just a wife in politically arranged marriage.

Yes, this is a very good point.

I'd say Margaery and Arianne are quite similar in that they are both already political players, in their own way, and they are not really innocent nor really wanting or needing to be loved as much as they want a position in society they are happy with.

Dany and Sansa are more similar in that they have been married off young and even though Dany ended up finding Drogo alright, they're still not keen on marrying for duty alone. Dany feels she has to and goes through with it, despite not being fond of Hizdahr and Sansa finds it depressing that nobody will ever want her for herself, only for her claim to Winterfell. Both Dany and Sansa are sadened by the fact that they by their positions in society are forced to accept marriages that are not what they would want. Dany is trying to harden herself to it, and Sansa just plain doesn't want to be part of that game anymore.

Asha and Cersei just don't want to be controlled by any man.

I agree with you too, that it seems pointless and odd to setup all these strong female characters, for them only to be married off as glorified trophy wives. It also seems that with the power vacuum all the warring and fighting has created, there is space for the women to have a stab at powergrabbing, either with men as their pawns, or on their own.

[Lummel]

...We also see several women in positions where they may be able to assume power without the aid of a husband. Asha, Sansa, and Arianne espeially. I've wondered before if Martin is setting it up so that at the end some of the women assert control over their destinies, including choice of husband, in a way that we had not previously seen in the novels. It would be an awful lot of set-up in several female characters for them only to settle down to be just a wife in politically arranged marriage.

I don't think that we should underestimate the role of women in arranging some of these political marraiges so far. Elia and Oberyn's tour was arranged by their mother after all, and I'm not sure if we should assume that noble women aren't already holding power in their own right, we've seen Lady Whent, Lady Wainwood and the Mormont Women in ASOIAF, there's the Red Spider in The Sworn Sword and Bloodraven's sweetheart (another Harrenhall woman I think) in The Mystery Knight.

But if Dany wins the Game of Thrones then given her feelings about arranged marriages and political marriages and the exercise of political power then I think the series would end with a promise of some big changes in Westeros (anybody for Sansa Stark hand to the Queen?).

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think that we should underestimate the role of women in arranging some of these political marraiges so far. Elia and Oberyn's tour was arranged by their mother after all, and I'm not sure if we should assume that noble women aren't already holding power in their own right, we've seen Lady Whent, Lady Wainwood and the Mormont Women in ASOIAF, there's the Red Spider in The Sworn Sword and Bloodraven's sweetheart (another Harrenhall woman I think) in The Mystery Knight.

But if Dany wins the Game of Thrones then given her feelings about arranged marriages and political marriages and the exercise of political power then I think the series would end with a promise of some big changes in Westeros (anybody for Sansa Stark hand to the Queen?).

Again, power was obtained through marriage. I think we are going to see women assume power without marriage. There are women who obtain power through marriage or as widows but that is because their husband allows it or they married a man they can control, at least some degree.

Right now, Lady Whent and the Mormon women seem to be exceptions rather than a common practice. But, they do show the reader what is possible. With the land ravaged by years of war, there are going to be opportunities for women in a way that there has not been in the past as well.

I can't comment on either The Red Spider or Bloodraven's sweetheart as I haven't read either of those.

As for Sansa, if she decides that she doesn't want to be Queen in the North, then I'm OK if she decides to be hand to the Queen. :) :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Bloodraven's mistress would be Shiera Seastar?

Regarding women ruling in their own right, or co-ruling, if Dany ever gets the Iron Throne, it seems that she'd either need to get a consort (can this even be done in Westeros?), or she will need to co-rule with a King since I doubt Dany would be the kind of queen who'd spend her days with tea parties and pleasure barges. Dany will want to rule, or at least to have a say in the ruling. That's been her goal all along and I can't see her relinquish it even if she does need a political marriage to secure her power base.

Sansa and Arya probably have better chances at choosing their own future partners if Rickon is alive and well and they are able to secure back Winterfell for the Starks at some point. The same is true if Bran manages to get back from beyond the wall and can rule Winterfell as its lord. If Bran does not come back, Sansa and Arya can rule until Rickon comes of age. Sansa being disinherited by Robb could also "free" her from any potential suitors only after her claim, while I think wild horses could not force Arya into a marriage to someone who only wanter her for her claim to Winterfell.

As for women in administrative positions of power, if Dany rules, I can absolutely see a new age of "modernity" for women, although I doubt that Sansa would want to be Hand of the Queen, since she's too much like her father and she knows what happened to him, but I could see Brienne enter the Queen/Kingsguard and maybe the Sandsnakes and Asha Greyjoy on the small council?

[Lummel]

Bloodraven's mistress would be Shiera Seastar?

Regarding women ruling in their own right, or co-ruling, if Dany ever gets the Iron Throne, it seems that she'd either need to get a consort (can this even be done in Westeros?), or she will need to co-rule with a King since I doubt Dany would be the kind of queen who'd spend her days with tea parties and pleasure barges. Dany will want to rule, or at least to have a say in the ruling. That's been her goal all along and I can't see her relinquish it even if she does need a political marriage to secure her power base...

Yes Shiera, that's the one.

I don't think that Dany on the iron throne would need a consort. By the time she turns up the realm will be exhausted, lots of people will be dead, she'll have dragons and represent the promise of order and security. On the otherhand because of the inheritance she might want a consort, but of course she might choose to resolve that another way by adopting a heir.

I'd say that she has been burnt by her experience in Meereen, she knows what she wants done, even though she may well want other people to implement her ideas. Already in Meereen she's not keen on having to compromise on the big picture policy ideas, she sees it as a failure, which it is, she compromises step by step until she's given up everything that she made other people fight and die for.

She'd set a precedent even without changing any laws. Though of course that might not have much influence on romance in the seven kingdoms, just on politics.

[Lyanna Stark]

Again, power was obtained through marriage. I think we are going to see women assume power without marriage. There are women who obtain power through marriage or as widows but that is because their husband allows it or they married a man they can control, at least some degree.

Indeed. It seems with the current generation, you have Arianne, who is heir to Dorne; Asha, who would like to be for the Iron Islands and who has men ready and willing to follow her as their leader; then there's Dany, who has hard power enough in her dragons to want to rule in her own right and be able to force it through.

Right now, Lady Whent and the Mormon women seem to be exceptions rather than a common practice. But, they do show the reader what is possible. With the land ravaged by years of war, there are going to be opportunities for women in a way that there has not been in the past as well.

Interestingly, there are real life examples of that women gained more power after wars since there were fewer men left to rule. The most recent example is during WW2 when women were taken in as factory workers and administrators since the men were off fighting a war. And once women have entered into that sphere, it's more difficult to chuck them out again as a precedent has been set. Perhaps something like it will be happening in Westeros. At least I hope that the Targaryen inheritance rule with "no women evah" will be thrown out for good and burnt to cinders by Dany's dragons.

A lot of things are actually changing in Westeros. The Faith Militant has risen again, dragons are in the world again. Why not a stronger position for women, or female rulers too?

I don't think that Dany on the iron throne would need a consort. By the time she turns up the realm will be exhausted, lots of people will be dead, she'll have dragons and represent the promise of order and security. On the otherhand because of the inheritance she might want a consort, but of course she might choose to resolve that another way by adopting a heir.

You mean she means to rule a bit like Elizabeth I? :) It would make for a nice ending, I think, but who will her heir be? I doubt she'd want for the Targaryen line to be extinguished and there's only her and Jon left who are "real" Targaryens. As Jon has taken the Black, he then needs to leave, marry someone else and have some children for a future Targaryen line to continue unless Dany tries to continue the line. And this is given that she is told that Jon is Rhaegar's son in the first place.

I'd say that she has been burnt by her experience in Meereen, she knows what she wants done, even though she may well want other people to implement her ideas. Already in Meereen she's not keen on having to compromise on the big picture policy ideas, she sees it as a failure, which it is, she compromises step by step until she's given up everything that she made other people fight and die for.

She'd set a precedent even without changing any laws. Though of course that might not have much influence on romance in the seven kingdoms, just on politics.

The personal is the political? ;)

It may have an impact in the level of freedom women can enjoy if there is a woman on the Iron Throne. It would at least set a precedent that women can rule and can have power, which means more women may see it as a possibility apart from being taught pretty things by their septa and giving birth to lots of babies for their lord husband.

As for romance though, I doubt the infatuation type romance disasters would change at all with a female ruler. They seem to be more generally destructive more because they are unrealistic overall than having overmuch to do with gender power dynamics.

[eyeheartsansa]

I agree with you too, that it seems pointless and odd to setup all these strong female characters, for them only to be married off as glorified trophy wives. It also seems that with the power vacuum all the warring and fighting has created, there is space for the women to have a stab at powergrabbing, either with men as their pawns, or on their own.

I'm hoping to see Sansa in this position someday!

[Kittykatknits]

Interestingly, there are real life examples of that women gained more power after wars since there were fewer men left to rule. The most recent example is during WW2 when women were taken in as factory workers and administrators since the men were off fighting a war. And once women have entered into that sphere, it's more difficult to chuck them out again as a precedent has been set. Perhaps something like it will be happening in Westeros. At least I hope that the Targaryen inheritance rule with "no women evah" will be thrown out for good and burnt to cinders by Dany's dragons.

A lot of things are actually changing in Westeros. The Faith Militant has risen again, dragons are in the world again. Why not a stronger position for women, or female rulers too?

WW2 is a great example but the same thing has happened in other wars as well. Another example happens to be the Civil War here in the U.S., particularly in the south. With men gone, women, especially those within the plantation aristocracy, were assuming positions of power that they had not been exposed to before. I've read the diaries of several women in the south during that time, quite fascinating.

A similar example, although not specific to women, is the plagues that ravaged Europe and led to permanent social change. In Westeros, we know that winter has arrived and the long night is supposed to be coming. It's quite possible we may see social change not just for women but the small folk as a result.

The personal is the political? ;)

It may have an impact in the level of freedom women can enjoy if there is a woman on the Iron Throne. It would at least set a precedent that women can rule and can have power, which means more women may see it as a possibility apart from being taught pretty things by their septa and giving birth to lots of babies for their lord husband.

As for romance though, I doubt the infatuation type romance disasters would change at all with a female ruler. They seem to be more generally destructive more because they are unrealistic overall than having overmuch to do with gender power dynamics.

We may see women marrying men who are not in a position to either threaten their power or rule in their own right as well.

And strongly agree.

[Artemis]

Marriage in Westeros is bad, but love is worse. I see no love stories or happy marriages on the horizon.

I will go on record as saying that I hate the idea of Arya and Gendry.

Preach. :bowdown:

I always thought Arya/Gendry was foreshadowed as never happening from the "Maiden of the Tree" song Tom sings in ASoS anyways. Them together would be so BLAHH but then again I can't deal with any kind of romantic love on the horizon in this series.

[Kittykatknits]

Preach. :bowdown:

I always thought Arya/Gendry was foreshadowed as never happening from the "Maiden of the Tree" song Tom sings in ASoS anyways. Them together would be so BLAHH but then again I can't deal with any kind of romantic love on the horizon in this series.

Martin has already said they have seperate destinies so Arya/Gendry isn't going to happen.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Preach. :bowdown: I always thought Arya/Gendry was foreshadowed as never happening from the "Maiden of the Tree" song Tom sings in ASoS anyways. Them together would be so BLAHH but then again I can't deal with any kind of romantic love on the horizon in this series.

How does that song go exactly? I don't remember it.

Martin has already said they have seperate destinies so Arya/Gendry isn't going to happen.

Hmm....that doesn't sound like something GRRM would reveal. The man is very tight lipped when it comes to such stuff. Everytime someone asks him about that kind of stuff all he ever says is "keep reading"

[Artemis]

How does that song go exactly? I don't remember it.

I'll just re-post an old post of mine because I'm entirely too lazy to look it up in the book:

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles

and said, "Are we certain this one is a highbom lady?" But Lem Lernoncloak gave Gendry a clout

alongside the head. "You want to fight, fight with me! She's a girl, and half your age! You keep your

hands off o' her, you hear me?"

"I started it " said Arya. "Gendry was just talking."

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at

Winterfell."

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

This was the scene where Arya was forced into the acorn dress in ASOS. Arya's acorn tress = acorns grow on trees = "the maiden of the tree" in the song = Arya.

We all know how free-spirited and carefree Arya is, which is exactly how the "maiden" of this song is described. The "lord" of the song, who's offering "the maiden" the featherbed, indicates that he desires something more stable, like marriage. We can see that manifest in the scene at Harrnehal when Gendry tells Arya that he's comfortable working at the smithy there, and doesn't seem to happy about her ideas of taking off and running away. Furthermore, he unpromptly leaves Arya's "pack" for the BwB and takes shelter at the inn with the orphans for the time being, forsaking all the adventures to come on the way to get Arya home to her mother.

I feel like the song shows that both Arya and Gendry want different things out of their lives. They both go down different paths, and I think they both will have distinctly separate futures. However, that's not to say that I don't see a possible reunion in the future. I do, in fact, but void of romance. The song is a bit sad, a bit nostalgic for a time of innocence and first love that's tenuous at best, especially with respect to it burgeoning into a full-blown romance.

Edit: As to the "forest love" and "forest lass" part, it draws a parallel to their current situation where they're both traveling with the BwB through the WOODS to return Arya back to her family. Again, another indication of how their "romance" was fleeting.

I could very well be completely wrong.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think that Gendry and Arya are even compatible. When he found out that she was high born he started to treat her differently and acted bitter whenever her status was brought up. He's better with someone like Jeyne or Willow Heddle.

I think he reminded her a bit of her relationship with her brothers.

"No!" Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant...Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers."

She noticed his chest once or twice but I don't think that was sexual or anything because she was 9/10. I think their relationship was mostly friendly with only one or two inappropriate instances like when he offered to show her his dick but that was before he found out who she was. Although she saw it anyway because she later saw him naked.

She started to see him differently too after he left her.

"Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. "

I think the forest lass thing fits her. Given all that she's seen-consensual and non-consensual sex I see her less likely to have a relationship that involves commitment to the level of actual marriage.

"...she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swinging back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful."

Edit: This scene could have been romantic had they been older and it was longer. I liked Arya's reactions with Ned Dayne.

"...Arya walked around the circle of weirwood stumps with Lord Beric's squire Ned, and they stood on top of one watching the last light fade in the west."

[romantic]

Tyrion and Sansa

That one I would truly love :cheers:

(referring to Tyrion and Sansa)

This is a match I would hate. Let's just remember what happened during the riot:-

After the remnants of the group ride into the yard, some time passes while they figure out who's still with them.

'Tyrion glanced around the yard, "Where's the Stark girl?"

For a moment no-one answered. Finally Joffrey said, "She was riding by me, I don't know where she went."

Tyrion pressed blunt figures into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead..." '

(my bold)

IMO he's more concerned about Jaime's welfare than that of a 12yo girl missing in a riot. Should they really be shipped?

[Lyanna Stark]

(referring to Tyrion and Sansa) This is a match I would hate. Let's just remember what happened during the riot:- After the remnants of the group ride into the yard, some time passes while they figure out who's still with them. 'Tyrion glanced around the yard, "Where's the Stark girl?" For a moment no-one answered. Finally Joffrey said, "She was riding by me, I don't know where she went." Tyrion pressed blunt figures into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead..." ' (my bold) IMO he's more concerned about Jaime's welfare than that of a 12yo girl missing in a riot. Should they really be shipped?

To be fair to Tyrion, Jaime is his brother and he has a positive relationship with Jaime. Sansa to Tyrion is just a hostage. Valuable to be sure, but he has no personal relationship with her, he doesn't know or care anything about her. She's a bargaining chip in the Game of Thrones, nothing more. I don't think it makes him a bad person for thinking of Jaime first.

However, I do agree that Tyrion and Sansa are unlikely to ever be able to appreciate each other or be romantically involved. They are extremely different as people, Tyrion has severe issues with attachment, with relationships and especially with relationships with women. Sansa hates the Lannister family and feel they are responsible for her family's downfall, the murder of her father and the disappearance of her sister. Tyrion was her jailor during his time as Hand and he agreed to a forced marriage to have a chance at her claim to Winterfell. Sansa hates that she will ever only get married off for her claim and not for herself. We also see in ASOS that they cannot communicate and are unable to "reach" the other person at all. Tyrion bewilders Sansa, she does not understand what he wants from her, and Tyrion himself finds Sansa depressing, dimwitted and is put off by her stonewalling by way of courtesy.

[ARYa_Nym]

I definitely see Rhaegar and Lyanna as the big romance of the series provided that she was willing but I think Jon and Dany have the potential to be the next legendary couple.

I don't think that Jon will be as opposed to incest as some might think. Also, it's not yet proven that aunt/nephew or uncle/niece is seen as on par with brother/sister or cousin/cousin.

He compares Arya to Ygritte twice and in one instance he goes from comparing them to thinking about Ygritte's body. That is somewhat weird imo.

"She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore."

Edit: I just realized that he did it in ACoK too.

"...short for her age...Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions.She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya."

“Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya…”

Ygritte and Jon had an interesting convo about incest and when she asked him if he would have sex with his sister he didn't outright say no.

“She punched him, “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?” “Longspear’s not your brother.” “He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.” “Craster weds his daughters,” Jon pointed. She punched him again. “Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village…”

He compared Alys to Arya and I thought that she flirted with him a little bit when they danced together.

"..She rubbed away a tear angrily, the way Arya might have done it."

"The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart."

"She looked enough like Arya to give him pause but only for a moment...her brown hair...She had a long face...But she was too old, far too old....She does look a bit like Arya, Jon thought. Starved and skinny, but her hair's the same color, and her eyes."

I'm not arguing for Jon/Arya but that Jon is a Targaryen and they just can't help themselves when it comes to this. I think that Dany shares certain qualities with Arya and Jon likes a woman/girl like his mother. They both can compare to Visenya. They are strong, brave, bold, fighters, sometimes ruthless, vengeful, stubborn, and constantly refer to the imagery of their house whether it's the wolf or the dragon.

Also, I would love it if they had twins that looked like Rhaegar and Lyanna but I think that they will just have one son if my interpretations of the prophecies are correct.. Dany lost a son and Jon wished for one. I think one of them will die though but they will have a child.

If Jon is with someone other than Dany I think only Arianne makes sense. A Jon/Arianne match is really the most efficient way I see House Targaryen patching things up with House Martell. It was said by someone that to conquer Dorne you must marry it and Jon's hero was the one who tried to do it militarily but Jon can try marriage.

[Kittykatknits]

Hmm....that doesn't sound like something GRRM would reveal. The man is very tight lipped when it comes to such stuff. Everytime someone asks him about that kind of stuff all he ever says is "keep reading"

Martin said it earlier this year at a book signing in Toronto, it's not in an actual interview. Someone asked him a question about the two of them and wrote down the response:

His response was that Arya and Gendry have separate futures but whether they'll ever meet up again, you'll just have to keep reading.

So, it is possible they will see each other again but that's it.

[romantic]

To be fair to Tyrion, Jaime is his brother and he has a positive relationship with Jaime. Sansa to Tyrion is just a hostage. Valuable to be sure, but he has no personal relationship with her, he doesn't know or care anything about her. She's a bargaining chip in the Game of Thrones, nothing more. I don't think it makes him a bad person for thinking of Jaime first.

However, I do agree that Tyrion and Sansa are unlikely to ever be able to appreciate each other or be romantically involved. They are extremely different as people, Tyrion has severe issues with attachment, with relationships and especially with relationships with women. Sansa hates the Lannister family and feel they are responsible for her family's downfall, the murder of her father and the disappearance of her sister. Tyrion was her jailor during his time as Hand and he agreed to a forced marriage to have a chance at her claim to Winterfell. Sansa hates that she will ever only get married off for her claim and not for herself. We also see in ASOS that they cannot communicate and are unable to "reach" the other person at all. Tyrion bewilders Sansa, she does not understand what he wants from her, and Tyrion himself finds Sansa depressing, dimwitted and is put off by her stonewalling by way of courtesy.

Sorry. I didn't mean my original quote as suggesting Tyrion is bad, more that Sansa is just an object to him as she is to soooo many people and she deserves more in a relationship than being 'a claim' (as you eloquently put it).

(edit - added Sorry)

[Ser Wun Wun]

Martin said it earlier this year at a book signing in Toronto, it's not in an actual interview. Someone asked him a question about the two of them and wrote down the response:

His response was that Arya and Gendry have separate futures but whether they'll ever meet up again, you'll just have to keep reading.

So, it is possible they will see each other again but that's it.

Is that in the SSM entries? I haven't read them in awhile, so it must have been added recently. I'll take your word for it though.

I'm a little shocked he would talk so candidly about it though, even in an informal setting like that. I'd gotten used to the idea that the man gives nothing away. I don't even watch most of his interviews anymore because of it.