493 replies to this topic

[FirstSwordofBraavos]

Hello everybody. After shamelessly lurking for the better part of a year, I finally decided to start my first post on this forum.

One common idea that prevails on this board is that Rhaegar was a more honorable man than Robert. A better man. And I agree that Robert was...well...a fat, drunk lout in his later years ( which was a result of him taking the throne ), but he was the better man compared to Rhaegar during and before the rebellion. This post shall discuss Rhaegar, and ultimately be a justification of the Rebellion.

One of my biggest quips with Rhaegar is his conduct at the Harrenhall tourney. He dishonoured his wife by not crowning her as the Queen of Love and Beauty. A married man who names another woman as the more beautiful, at what was the largest social event in Westeros. Not only that, the woman in question is bethrothed to another. In doing so, he shamed both House Martell and Baratheon. And seeing that he was going to be the next king, not an extra-ordinarily wise move.

And to further compound that shame, he commits social harakiri by kidnapping/whatever Howland Reed has to say/ running away with Lyanna. A husband, father, prince and national figure elopes with a scion of one of the great houses and who is to marry into another great house. Now love conquers all, love is blind and all those Disney movies may herald this elopement as a rather romantic gesture, but in reality this was the moment when war became almost inevitable.

Many people have said that if Brandon had not gone to KL with blood rushing to his head, Rhaegar would have married Lyanna and there would have been a happily ever after. Not at all. If the PTWP was true, and if Jon Targaryen ( Aaaahhhh..... is it just me or does it just sound wrong   ?) is PTWP, then Rhaegar would have pushed Jon into the line of succession. Cue Aegon and the Martells rising in rebellion, and a disgruntled Robert aiding them. A second Dance of the Dragons, and this one involving nearly every house. So there would have been a war, only a few years later.

Whether Rhaegar eloped or kidnapped is not the problem, it is him not making his intentions clear.
If he wanted her as a wife, all he had to do was broach the topic with Rickard Stark !!

And what was an elder brother with a reputation of hot - headedness supposed to do ? Sit back, while rumours of rape and other maliciousness floated around ?

It was Rhaegar's actions that plunged the realm, which was already on a thin wire, into war. Brandon's and Rickard's deaths were just the final nails on the coffin.

And if he wanted to bring stability to the realm, why not try stopping the war earlier. For the better par of the rebellion, he was cooped inside the ToJ, allowing bloodshed and mass destruction to occur. Why not crush the rebellion earlier ?

Robert's promisciousness is used many times to show him as an immoral character. But really, is a handsome, single, and let's face it... horny chap not expected to sleep around ? And if the sex was consensual, what's the harm ?? Isn't infedilty worse than promiscuity?

Well, these are my personal thoughts on this topic. Sorry for the long - ish post !

[The Swaggering Bravo]

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Hello everybody. After shamelessly lurking for the better part of a year, I finally decided to start my first post on this forum.

One common idea that prevails on this board is that Rhaegar was a more honorable man than Robert. A better man. And I agree that Robert was...well...a fat, drunk lout in his later years ( which was a result of him taking the throne ), but he was the better man compared to Rhaegar during and before the rebellion. This post shall discuss Rhaegar, and ultimately be a justification of the Rebellion.

You should have saved some time, the Rebellion was justified, but only because of Aerys' atrocities, which had nothing to do with Rhaegar.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

One of my biggest quips with Rhaegar is his conduct at the Harrenhall tourney. He dishonoured his wife by not crowning her as the Queen of Love and Beauty. A married man who names another woman as the more beautiful, at what was the largest social event in Westeros. Not only that, the woman in question is bethrothed to another. In doing so, he shamed both House Martell and Baratheon. And seeing that he was going to be the next king, not an extra-ordinarily wise move.

They fell in love at the tourney, his marriage was political. Remember that this post wasn't to show that Rhaegar was dishonorable, but that Robert was the better man. Lyanna never loved Robert and Robert frequented brothels in his own marriage. Robert's list of shortcomings continues from there, impregnating a woman in his younger brother's marriage bed, and tolerating the murder of children. Rhaegar placed a crown of roses on a woman's lap, and you still hold that that was less honorable.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

And to further compound that shame, he commits social harakiri by kidnapping/whatever Howland Reed has to say/ running away with Lyanna. A husband, father, prince and national figure elopes with a scion of one of the great houses and who is to marry into another great house. Now love conquers all, love is blind and all those Disney movies may herald this elopement as a rather romantic gesture, but in reality this was the moment when war became almost inevitable.

Yes, they ran off together, yes, Brandon, not Robert, got angry and did something about it. It becomes a tragic love story here on out, but Aerys triggered the war by demanding Robert and Ned's heads after the deaths of his captives who were Brandon's companions. This was not the event that triggered the war.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Many people have said that if Brandon had not gone to KL with blood rushing to his head, Rhaegar would have married Lyanna and there would have been a happily ever after. Not at all. If the PTWP was true, and if Jon Targaryen ( Aaaahhhh..... is it just me or does it just sound wrong   ?) is PTWP, then Rhaegar would have pushed Jon into the line of succession. Cue Aegon and the Martells rising in rebellion, and a disgruntled Robert aiding them. A second Dance of the Dragons, and this one involving nearly every house. So there would have been a war, only a few years later.

Why would he have pushed Jon into the line of succession? Now you are just fabricating events that don't even match up with Rhaegar's character.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Whether Rhaegar eloped or kidnapped is not the problem, it is him not making his intentions clear.
If he wanted her as a wife, all he had to do was broach the topic with Rickard Stark !!

The answer would have been a no, and I think you made it clear that you believe his eloping was the problem.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

And what was an elder brother with a reputation of hot - headedness supposed to do ? Sit back, while rumours of rape and other maliciousness floated around ?

Well gee, I think that galloping up to the gate of King's Landing demanding Rhaegar to come out and die when a king notorious for his insanity was the only one present may have not been the wisest course of action. This is getting off topic, how does any of this make Rhaegar less honorable than Robert?

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

It was Rhaegar's actions that plunged the realm, which was already on a thin wire, into war. Brandon's and Rickard's deaths were just the final nails on the coffin.

Actually, it wasn't even then that plunged the realm into a state of rebellion. After Aerys had them all killed he demanded Robert and Ned's heads as well. But Jon Arryn rose in rebellion rather than give up those he had sworn to protect. You may say due to Rhaegar's lack of action is what made the rebellion begin, but once again, how does this make Robert more honorable?

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

And if he wanted to bring stability to the realm, why not try stopping the war earlier. For the better par of the rebellion, he was cooped inside the ToJ, allowing bloodshed and mass destruction to occur. Why not crush the rebellion earlier ?

The Battle of the Trident is what you'd be talking about, the rebellion wasn't deemed as threatening as it should have been until the aftermath of that battle.

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Robert's promisciousness is used many times to show him as an immoral character. But really, is a handsome, single, and let's face it... horny chap not expected to sleep around ? And if the sex was consensual, what's the harm ?? Isn't infedilty worse than promiscuity?

Well, these are my personal thoughts on this topic. Sorry for the long - ish post  !

If you'll remember, he was betrothed to Lyanna when he fathered a few of his bastards, this is in part what turned Lyanna away from him. He was engaged or married when he fathered all of his bastards with the exception of Mya Stone. "Ned wondered if Rhaegar had ever frequented brothels, somehow he thought not." No one but Robert saw Rhaegar in a negative lighting, because he 'stole' Lyanna from him. He condoned the murder of children and was a terrible king. Many have remarked how much better of a king Rhaegar would have been over Robert. "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

[Victaerys]

Women like Rhaegar because he was handsome, romantic, intelligent, sensitive, brave, etc. etc. etc.

That he indirectly plunged the Realm into the worst chaos it has known since the Targaryens landed is clearly inconsequential in comparison

[Noimporta]

He died young, that means he didn't get many chances to screw up, and his main screwup was romanticized by everyone who thinks highly of him.

[JonHo]

If I had to choose between Robert and Rhaeger... Oh come on that's not even a choice, Rhaeger all the way.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

According to Varys he also plotted to usurp his dad

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I think Rhaegar bears some responsibility for the events leading up to the rebellion in an indirect way. I agree with the original poster that he not only shamed his own wife but all of Dorne and Houses Stark and Baratheon and that very public shaming is what caused Brandon Stark to behave in the way that he did.

[Gurkhal]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 07 February 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

According to Varys he also plotted to usurp his dad

Yep and that should be added to his list of merits while at the same time he obviously had flaws as well and his affair with Lyanna was a serious violation, as I see, in regards to the duties he had as the Crown Prince.

Edited by Gurkhal, 07 February 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[The Storm Queen]

Agree that it would have been his job to keep his family safe and use all of his resources for this * instead of having a lovefest with a very underage girl who is engaged to another man. And the way he treated Elia makes me very angry

*would Elia and her kids have died If the KG protected them and not Lyanna? i really wonder about that. Maybe they´d have the chance to flee..

[The Storm Queen]

Agree that it would have been his job to keep his family safe and use all of his resources for this * instead of having a lovefest with a very underage girl who is engaged to another man. And the way he treated Elia makes me very angry

*would Elia and her kids have died If the KG protected them and not Lyanna? i really wonder about that. Maybe they´d have the chance to flee..

[The Storm Queen]

sorry double post

[The King in the South]

Was gonna have a long response but Rand Sand hit most of my points.

So um...


He's so dreamy

[Anwar]

It's a case of folks remembering a dead guy better than he really was. They're really just thinking "Oh, how nasty things have become but Rhaegar was so nice I'm sure it'd be better if he were alive."

If Robert had died in the Rebellion I'm sure folks would think of him as a noble man who would've lead them to a glorious new era if he'd lived.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Rand Sand, on 05 February 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

The Battle of the Trident is what you'd be talking about, the rebellion wasn't deemed as threatening as it should have been until the aftermath of that battle.

I think you mean the Battle of the Bells there.  Otherwise agreed, and further, there is no real indication to my knowledge that Rhaegar had any good idea as to what was going on in KL and points north until after that.  Perhaps Rhaegar could/should have predicted that things would deteriorate politically in the wake of Lyanna's "abduction" but there are too many unanswered questions as to just what he knew was going on and what he thought everyone knew about Lyanna.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Anwar, on 07 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

It's a case of folks remembering a dead guy better than he really was. They're really just thinking "Oh, how nasty things have become but Rhaegar was so nice I'm sure it'd be better if he were alive." If Robert had died in the Rebellion I'm sure folks would think of him as a noble man who would've lead them to a glorious new era if he'd lived.

I disagree.  Both in the books and in history at large, if anything, the victors tend to be remembered in a flattering light and the vanquished tend to be blackened perhaps past what is warranted by the facts.  The fact that many, many people (even before things became "nasty" in the wake of the War of the Five Kings) including but not limited to Ned Stark remembered Rhaegar in good to glowing terms speaks volumes.  Likewise, had Robert lost on the Trident, one has no reason to suspect he'd be remembered any better than the various Targaryen bastards who rebelled against the regular succession.

[Lord Damian]

Rheagar was someone who was incredibly arrogant, not cruel but arrogance is and was enough to lead to ignorance and that started in motion the entire rebellion. Rheagar and his daddy, you know, that wonderful, loving and gently Targaryen family "fire and blood".  Yeah, what a bunch!

[nixiepoo]

After thinking about it, it could be that Robert raped Lyanna sometime after Harrenhal, here is why I think this:

What was Robert's reaction to Lyanna  being wooed by Rheager? Knowing what we know about Robert, I doubt he just shrugged off the advance. That was a direct hit to his honor. I noticed no one mentions this when talking about it. Everyone thinks that Robert was at the Vale, but what if he wasn't? Robert is know for violence and drinking, so it's possible.

It could be Ned didn't know who the father of her child was, of course, (if he knew he would have killed Robert), when Ned found her, she was dying. She could only tell him so much in the little time she had left. So it could be that Ned knows who the mother is but someone else knows the rest. Just something to think about.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Rhaegar may be the only "modern" Targ I actually like (except Maester Aemon) I also think I probably like him because he is dead no, seriously, I like my boys a little emo xD

[HyacinthGirl]

Rhaegar and Aemon seem like a Targ minority in that they weren't batshit crazy. It's made pretty clear that Rhaegar would have been a good king by Barry the Bold, who's probably a good judge of character. (That said, he's chosen to stand by Dany...)
But yeah, Rhaegar shouldn't have stolen Lyanna. Firstly, Bros Sers over Hoes Wenches or whatever they may say in Westeros, and secondly, it must have really hurt Elia's feelings, poor her. Apart from that I think he's loved for pretty good reasons.
He would have obviously been a better king than Bob.

Edited by HyacinthGirl, 07 February 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[HyacinthGirl]

FirstSwordofBraavos, on 05 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

<snip>

And welcome, FirstSwordofBraavos.

Edited by HyacinthGirl, 07 February 2012 - 06:46 PM.