No "Second Life" for Sansa

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

Most of the behavior listed above as examples of her empathy can just as easily be attributed to her learning ladylike behavior fom the septa

These are excactly my thoughts.

Most people realize he's a pathological creep within seconds, and she still wants to marry him even after the wolf thing? So much happened, and he basically had to behead her father before she saw it. Arya and jon, on the other hand, seemed to instinctively dislike him, like a dog (or wolf) would

Don't be so strict with her she is just a proper lady living in songs and fair tales and she is going to marry the pop idol of her age. The crown prince of the seven kingdoms.

Unless this is your point to tell us that she just a normal lady and not a human warg which is an argument to end this discussion once and for all....

[Jaqen H'gcarl]

GRRM said all the Stark children are wargs.

This is what I guessed too.

I think all Starks, even Benjen and Ned were wargs. I mean, obviously they weren't, because both (presumably) died before Daenerys dragons (or whatever it was!) brought back "magic" to the world. But they would have been, if they'd lived.

Thinking about it.. if this is true - that Stark blood is Warg blood, or "skinchanger" blood.. Doesn't that mean that the Karstarks could also have a chance of being Wargs?

And what about Varamyr Sixskins, was he also of the same blood as the Starks were? ie First Men blood..

And on a last note.. does the role of a pet play a large role in you becoming or unleashing your "warg" skills? do you have to have a pet that you can bond deeply with to the point of warging into it? or is it all in the blood and you just have to learn to use it....?

[Elba the Intoner]

I don't see much evidence for Sansa having super (or even normal) empathic abilities at all. I was hoping to like her more on the re-read but so far (finished GoT for 2nd time) I'm finding I like her less. I didn't notice the first time how much she thinks of Jon as her "bastard half brother" (none of the other kids do that.). And Joffrey! Most people realize he's a pathological creep within seconds, and she still wants to marry him even after the wolf thing? So much happened, and he basically had to behead her father before she saw it. Arya and jon, on the other hand, seemed to instinctively dislike him, like a dog (or wolf) would. Sansa doesn't seem to have these sort of instincts. Most of the behavior listed above as examples of her empathy can just as easily be attributed to her learning ladylike behavior fom the septa (see "little bird" talk with sandor).

It seems like you are basing your entire view of Sansa on only the first book without looking at her character development in the other books. Also, it's not true that she is the only one of the Stark siblings who calls Jon her bastard half brother. All the others do at some point. Robb screaming at Jon that he'll never be Lord of Winterfell is one example that comes to mind, and Bran and Arya say it at certain points too. As for Joffrey, you have to keep in mind the POV structure of the book. Jon and Arya come to dislike him almost immediately (and therefore so do we as the readers) because they see him acting like an ass to Robb in the training yard. Also, we as the reader get that lovely interaction with Tyrion where Joff is acting like an ass again about Bran's fall and Tyrion slaps him. But Sansa wasn't there at either of those events and never saw them. The first time they interacted Joff was sweet and gallant to her. She did not ever see his behavior in the yard.

As for the empathy being attributed to her ladylike lessons, well, I see it as more than just her ladylike training, as there were many times where she acted on instinct, without even knowing why, and they were always the right move to make. In the example you pointed out for instance, her first talk with Sandor in the field where he calls her a little bird, there is something more on instinct that she does there in the end. First she does look at his face because she is trying to be a courteous lady, but then after he tells her his story and is silent for a while she instinctively reaches out and touches his shoulder. She acted on instinct when she saved Dontos in Clash too. Just before Dontos came out to joust she was thinking that Joff seems like he's getting annoyed so she was determined not to say anything, but then when Joff says to drown Dontos she blurts out on instinct not to do that. Same with the women and children in Maegors during the Battle of the Blackwater. She didn't really know why she stood up but she thought someone had to say something.

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

there is something more on instinct that she does there in the end. First she does look at his face because she is trying to be a courteous lady, but then after he tells her his story and is silent for a while she instinctively reaches out and touches his shoulder. She acted on instinct when she saved Dontos in Clash too. Just before Dontos came out to joust she was thinking that Joff seems like he's getting annoyed so she was determined not to say anything, but then when Joff says to drown Dontos she blurts out on instinct not to do that. Same with the women and children in Maegors during the Battle of the Blackwater. She didn't really know why she stood up but she thought someone had to say something.

That proves she is in fact a nice girl. Not a warg. When I see a hungry homeless boy in the street I give him something to eat. Am I a warg too??

[Elba the Intoner]

No but it might make you empathic ;-)

[Little Red Riding Hood]

"Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

(Varamyr Sixskins, Prologue of "A dance with dragons")

[white wolfpack]

I readily admit that I just re-read GoT in something like 4 days, so that book is freshest for me. I did read them all and wasn't left with the impression that she had any special abilities in the empathy or intelligence or warging arena after reading them all. On my re-read, I tried to focus in on things that were questions for me or that I wanted to understand better, and one of those things was to give her a second look. I stand by the assertion that I think the evidence is slim. Although the other Stark children at various points may refer to Jon's being a bastard (it's a fact, they know it), they don't consistently and in their thoughts tag him with that quite the way Sansa does. The chapter where she's shut up with Jayne Poole struck me as downright creepy (not a lot of support for empathy there). Honestly, her interactions with Sandor, I felt like they were more about showing HIS empathy than hers. I actually came away from my re-read liking him more than I had initially.

I'm willing to end up being wrong about her, but I just haven't seen the evidence yet. It seems to me that GRRM does give us evidence of empathy in other character's thoughts without our needing to read quite so much into it. In particular, I recall Danerys wanting to free slaves in several different places because she knew what it was like to be sold and even thought it worked out OK for her, she didn't want to see anyone else in that situation. With Sansa, we're not sure why she does some of this stuff - personally I think it's 75% training, and 25% not thinking about the possible consequences of opening her mouth. But we'll know eventually.

On a related note, there's a "Bran" chapter in GoT where (now that I've read all the books) it seemed like Rickon was totally warging. I missed that the first time, because warging wasn't really on my mind in the first book.

[Starks Among Us]

On a related note, there's a "Bran" chapter in GoT where (now that I've read all the books) it seemed like Rickon was totally warging. I missed that the first time, because warging wasn't really on my mind in the first book.

Which chapter/scene? I just re-read that one myself not long ago and didn't pick up on it....

Also, as far as the wolves thing goes...what about Rob in CoK when he says "I am not a wolf" to Catelynn when explaining to her why he left Grey Wind outside....when I read that (this is my first re-read of the book) I thought, holy cow he just f'd him self to the old Gods b/c he just denied that he was a wolf..granted I'm sure he meant in a literal sense, but to deny it would be denying part of himself...thoughts????

[Nausicaä]

I don't see much evidence for Sansa having super (or even normal) empathic abilities at all. I was hoping to like her more on the re-read but so far (finished GoT for 2nd time) I'm finding I like her less. I didn't notice the first time how much she thinks of Jon as her "bastard half brother" (none of the other kids do that.). And Joffrey! Most people realize he's a pathological creep within seconds, and she still wants to marry him even after the wolf thing? So much happened, and he basically had to behead her father before she saw it. Arya and jon, on the other hand, seemed to instinctively dislike him, like a dog (or wolf) would. Sansa doesn't seem to have these sort of instincts. Most of the behavior listed above as examples of her empathy can just as easily be attributed to her learning ladylike behavior fom the septa (see "little bird" talk with sandor).

But it's not belittlement, it's just calling him what he is. All of the other kids with POVs call him their half-brother or bastard brother (or both) in their thoughts. Arya even thought that he wasn't a wolf because he wasn't a Stark.

If Sansa was gone too, there were no more Starks but her. Jon was on the Wall a thousand leagues away, but he was a Snow, and these different aunts and uncles the Hound wanted to sell her to, they weren't Starks either. They weren't wolves.

In my opinion, Jon and Arya's instincts in the first book are not something for Sansa to envy. They both figured out that Joffrey is a jerk, but their dislike of him was irrational at first (they started disliking him before they saw how he acted with Robb in the yard) and Jon's dislike of him translated into picking on his looks (he didn't like that Joffrey was taller than him and Robb and his "pouty lips" and he disparagingly compared him to a girl). Plus they also didn't think very well of Tommen and Myrcella, who are actually perfectly nice, sweet kids, unlike their brother. Myrcella, for example, has done absolutely nothing to be called insipid and stupid by Jon (casting shy glances at his brother doesn't count). Sansa's perceptions don't overlap with those of Arya and Jon, but that doesn't mean they are all wrong and she's actually not perceptive. When she said to Arya that Jon gets jealous because he's a bastard, it's perceived as a mean, unfair comment by Arya and many readers, but it's actually entirely true. Jon resents the position that is forced on him by the society. He feels entitlement because he was brought up as a lord's son and bitterness because he's not actually entitled to the things that are supposed to go with that upbringing and he can never have what he wants (like Winterfell). So of course there is an element of that in his dislike of Joffrey. The crown prince is a little shit who looks down on everything Jon loves but he's going to be Jon's king one day and Jon isn't even allowed to be in his presence. Naturally, Jon is going to feel that it's unfair. Sansa may have praised it a little poorly, but she still caught what's going on with his feelings.

She is blind to Joffrey's faults in GoT, but she never saw him acting out like the others did because he was careful to always present himself as a perfect prince to her. When she sees his true nature (the Mycah/Nymeria/Lady incident), she does resent him for a while and doesn't go back to liking him until he tries to win her over again.

[Elba the Intoner]

Which chapter/scene? I just re-read that one myself not long ago and didn't pick up on it....

Also, as far as the wolves thing goes...what about Rob in CoK when he says "I am not a wolf" to Catelyn when explaining to her why he left Grey Wind outside....when I read that (this is my first re-read of the book) I thought, holy cow he just f'd him self to the old Gods b/c he just denied that he was a wolf..granted I'm sure he meant in a literal sense, but to deny it would be denying part of himself...thoughts????

I think the scene in AGOT suggesting Rickon might be a warg is the one when he says to Bran and Osha that he saw his father walking in the crypts of Winterfell just before they got word that Ned was killed. He had the same dream as Bran about it. Perhaps Bran and Rickon sensed something through their wolves who somehow sensed Ned's death?

As for Robb, the way he describes to Catelyn how he was able to find his way into Stafford Lannister's army and destroy it strongly suggests that he warged Greywind to see the way through. I don't have the book in front of me for the direct quote, but he says how he was just able to sense instinctively and see it in his mind or something like that as to how to get in. It's also clear that Southrons do not like wargs and warging whereas it's more accepted up north and by the wildlings. Good call regarding how Robb exclaiming that he is not a wolf, which was probably made in response to the rumors that started circulating about him being a warg, was a rejection of the Old Gods. And just to bring this back to Sansa and warging, her character seems to be moving more and more towards her northern roots and wolf identity. There are two instances off the top of my head which expressly show this. First when she is forced to marry Tyrion and she wants to run off, one of the Kettleblacks (the one on the Kingsguard?) says you are a wolf and they are strong and she says a wolf, yes, I can be strong (paraphrasing). The other is when she is coming down from the Eyrie and she has to cross over that treacherous landsaddle, she hears the wind howling and thinks it sounds like a wolf and after thinking this she takes Sweetrobin who is on the verge of a seizure and crosses the landsaddle with him. The thought of the wolf gave her the courage to do that.

Oh, I just thought of another instance that shows Sansa embracing her roots though this does not involve a wolf per se. When she is building snow Winterfell she confronts Petyr about not taking her home as he had promised. She wonders where she got the nerve to be so bold and then thinks it's because of Winterfell and that she is stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

[Kittykatknits]

I think the scene in AGOT suggesting Rickon might be a warg is the one when he says to Bran and Osha that he saw his father walking in the crypts of Winterfell just before they got word that Ned was killed. He had the same dream as Bran about it. Perhaps Bran and Rickon sensed something through their wolves who somehow sensed Ned's death?

<snip for length>

Great post Elba! As the series has gone on, the symbolism around Sansa's character has been steadily growing closer to the North and Winter.

Her physical description of ivory skin and red hair sounds like Ghost or the Wierwood trees. During her forced marriage to Tyrion, he thinks that her cold courtesy armor is like the wall that he once visited. She wears colors associated with the North and Starks on many occassions, including at key points in the series. Her snow castle scene is a religious moment, it's a communion and a baptism in snow rather than holy water. Her wolf Lady is in the lynchyard of WF, helping Sansa to maintain a physical connection to her home. She models her identity of Alayne after Jon (I would refer everyone to tze's excellent post on this).

[Rawien]

In some of the later books when they are talking about Sixskins they talk about warging using other animals. Sansa clearly can't use her direwolf Lady and chances are she won't be coming across another one. She's constantly being referred to ask "Little Bird" by several characters in the books. Could she be a warg for another animal, possibly birds? She has moved to the eyrie, which refers to the nest of a bird and the house symbol is a lark or swallow isn't it? I could definitely see her using birds in the future. It seems to suit her. She does have different characteristics to the other stark children, being more trusting and refined than a wolf and lacking the pack instincts.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

She didn´t warged into her beast:"Lady".

So- I suspect- :idea:

She will do so with certain "Human": .... ^_^

[ValentineNaomi]

I don't think that warging is something that Sansa would be interested in. The source of her strength lies in her experiences at court, her true power will be making bad-ass schemes that surpass even those of Littlefinger!

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

I was thinking Lyanna was a warg, furthermore my idea was, that she must had warged (subconciously or at least had wolf dreams about) the direwolf mother that was found dead by Jon and Robb. It's a bit streched theory since it would mean the direwolf would have to be at least 15 years old, but we don't know much about direwolves anyway. If a normal dog can live up to 15, a direwolf could surely live longer and still be fertile at that age.

Noone has seen a direwolf south of the Wall for two hundred years, and now there comes one so far south as Winterfell. I think she just somehow knew where to come (but don't ask me how she came across the Wall). And she was struggling with a deer and was killed by him.

:idea: I LOVE this theory. Brilliant.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Highly likely

Trout- Tully

:huh: :laugh: :lol: :rofl:

[Kittykatknits]

In some of the later books when they are talking about Sixskins they talk about warging using other animals. Sansa clearly can't use her direwolf Lady and chances are she won't be coming across another one. She's constantly being referred to ask "Little Bird" by several characters in the books. Could she be a warg for another animal, possibly birds? She has moved to the eyrie, which refers to the nest of a bird and the house symbol is a lark or swallow isn't it? I could definitely see her using birds in the future. It seems to suit her. She does have different characteristics to the other stark children, being more trusting and refined than a wolf and lacking the pack instincts.

There have been many threads debating whether Sansa will ever warg another animal or not. The general belief is that if Sansa does it is likely to be a bird of some sort, largely based upon the little bird and the bird imagery that surrounds her character. Also, the House sigil for the Arryns is a hawk which is the family I think you are referring to, right?

I'd disagree though on the lacking pack instincts and being more trusting. I think all the Stark kids started out more trusting in the first book, Sansa was most certainly naive. But, she's now moved to the opposite end of the spectrum, she's not willing to put her trust in anyone. As to the pack instinct, I'd refer you to the snow WF scene. It pretty clearly aligns her with the North and winter. All her thoughts of her family are loving ones as well. Despite the naive behavior in Game, the pack instincts are there, it will just looks a little different. Same with all of the Stark kids.

[Silverin]

1. The wolves act as a sort of danger signal, though because of the SSSSS (Sudden Suicadial Stark Stupidity Syndrome, don'T remember who came up with it, but the person was a genious) these are constantly overlooked. So I guess it means she lost that.

2. GRRM said all Stark kids are wargs, so yeah Sansa as well. It is an another question wether it will ever shown. I think if it will ever happpen it will be a bird, (or a dragon and the she will become th legendary Wargmaester Sanserion).

3. While I do think Sansa is emphatic, I don't think it is necesserily because of her warg abilities. But the night of the Blackwater, is strange especially with Sansa's memory of a kiss that according to Sandor did not happen. But I for one don'T want her to warg people. From Varamyr we know that is one of the biggest taboo, even Bran kows what he is doing to Hodor is not okay, Hodor don'T understands but whemently went against it at first, and later he is hiding in a corner of his mind while Bran is there. Warging people is like mindrape, not okay. Bran is getting really creepy. So no, Sansa warging Sandor is not romantic. Not to mention warging humans is harder than animals. So I doubt Sansa would start with that, though Sandor being compeletly drunk might would have made it easier if it ever happened.

And if she indeed warged Sandor, she basically kissed herself...

4. When Lady died, I thought she will be the Stark kid that dies. But Rbbb had his wolf yet he still died, so now I don't think so. Now what I think is maybe she will never return to the Sansa Stark life, maybe she will stay as Alayne, I actually think she would be happier if Sansa Stark would be "dead", and she would stop being a prize.

5. To say that she is not a wolf is not true. If anything she is actually more of a wolf in later books, than she was in the first one when she still had her wolf. The rebuilding of Winterfell is one of the most beutiful and emotional scenes, her thinking about WF so much, going to the Old Gods and praying to them, thinking she will have a daughter like Arya ( :crying: ...all the people who critising her because of her catfights with Arya, she wants a daghter like her... :crying: ) etc...

6. And talking about symbolism, exactly because of the rebuilding of Winterfell from snow I think she will have a big role in rebuilding it. Maybe actually that what it can represent, Lady's corpse is in WInterfell, her wolf although not alive but is there, while the others are scattered. Anyway it can be interpreted a lot of different ways, but Sansa does think of WF a lot, she thinks of her siblings, and she wants to be back as well.

7.If anything her roots to Winterfell, to the North are getting stronger and stronger so far with each passing books.

[Kittykatknits]

And if she indeed warged Sandor, she basically kissed herself...

LOL, I've never thought aobut it this way before. I've never been a fan of the theory that she warged him that night but this settles it for me and now I firmly believe it didn't happen.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

She will fly, but not warging.