Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory 3 - Storm God vs Drowned God

[David C. Hunter]

First Two Assessments

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73356-ice-and-fire-assessmenttheory-long-read/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75928-ice-and-fire-assessmenttheory-2-greyjoys-long-read/page__st__20

What I do want to point out though is that I am being very simplistic in the whole 'Ice vs Fire' theme, because it is more complicated than that, but this is just what I feel is the overall arc. Its not so much the story is Team Ice vs Team Fire. In fact it maybe more accurate to say Light vs Darkness. I mean R'hillor is called the 'Lord of Light', The Storm God hides in 'Darkness', Bloodraven tells Bran that 'Darkness' is his ally. In the end there maybe two overall sides in the final conflict, but each faction on either side has their own interpretation. The Ironborn have a different interpretation then the Red Priests, the Red Priests have a different interpretation than the Valyrians, even if they do all end up on the same side.

However I do see it like this. If the Ironborn culture is based on the remnants of a past civilization that was based in the magic of Flame/Light, Dragons, etc than they have longed forgotten it, just like every other culture on the planet of Westeros and Essos. However, I believe history will repeat itself. It is no coincidence that Victarion Greyjoy, the Ironborn Captain is heading straight for Danearys Targaryan. It is also no coincidence that Moqorro just happened to come across Victarion Greyjoy on his way to Dany. This is deliberate and the timing screams of destiny and inevitability. It is also no coincidence that Victarion Greyjoy has basically adopted the religion of the Red Priests as his own and is even sacrificing to the Lord of Light....this is no small matter, this is huge. However, he also continues to give soauls to the Drowned God as well, which to me can be interpreted as the Lord of Light and the Drowned God are different interpretations of the same force front.

Victarion, the Ironborn, who will further adopt the Lord of Light if the battle of fire goes well is headed for Dany, the Queen Champion of the Magic of Flame front. This is why I don't agree with assessments that 'Oh Dany is going to kill Victarion, Moqorro is leading him to his death, yadda yadda, yadda.' That doesn't make sense to me. Why would Dany kill him? She needs him. Who else can sail all across the seas? Selmy? They need each other and Moqorro is leading them to that front where I promise you one way or another Both Team Dany and Team Victarion will unite beneath the Banner of the Lord of Light. Again though, that doesn't mean there will be no conflict. I'm sure Jorah, Selmy, and Tyrion will have their reservations, but the important part is that the Representatives of the Magic of Flame front will be set and they will sail to Westeros. I expect the Dothraki and Unsullied to both come as well. This is called the Battle of Fire for a reason. Why? Because this is where 'Team Fire' comes together(Even though I hate calling it that) There will be many conflicting beliefs, but this is the Fire Front.

I also do not believe that Euron Greyjoy will get a Dragon. I could be wrong about this, but if Moqorro would bind the horn to Victarion only to have the Dragons fly to Euron then this will mark the first time he is wrong and Victarion will skin him alive. No, no....if the other front gets a Dragon it will be through Jon/Bran and no other.

Euron Greyjoy

By far one of the most layered, mysterious and interesting characters in the series and I will explain all of the symbolism.

It is said that the Storm God killed Balon Greyjoy:

-Very telling. The Storm God for all intents and purposes is the Darkness front and is the same character as the Old Gods, Ice Magic front. The woods witch also states through symbolism that Euron Greyjoy had something to do with Balon's death. One story says Euron, the other says Storm God. Is there a difference? Mentioning Euron along with the Storm God in any way hints at Euron's allegiance.

It is said that Euron gave a blood sacrifice to the Storm God as to sail further west than anyone, thus allowing the attack on the Reach to be a surprise:

Blood sacrifice again? To the Storm God? Blood to any God in this series means binding. If this is true, I doubt this was the first time Euron has ever given a sacrifice to the Storm God. Its a strange rumor, given that Euron claims to not be religious whatsoever...or rather he claims to be the most religious man in the world.

If the Storm God is with Euron then it is pretty obvious what his allegiance is, whether he is religious or not.

There was another Ironborn who 'gave himself' to a God: The Grey King who gave himself to the Drowned God in order to 'slay' a Dragon, only to have everything he built destroyed by the Storm God after his passing. As I mentioned in Part 2, the way the story of the Grey King is worded to me it seems that the Grey King and the Drowned God didn't join forces to kill the Dragon, Nagga, but rather to 'conquer' the Dragon in much of the same way the Valyrians did in Essos ages later. The fact that the Grey King's hall was built out of Nagga's bones and the hall was 'lit' by her flames is very telling. Not to repeat my entire analogy from part 2, but whenever interpreting old fabled stories you have to look at the symbolism behind the elements in the story in order for them to make any sense. You cant read it literally.

Questions arise like, why didn't the Grey King give the Dragon to the sea? Instead he built a Great Hall made of the Dragon and her flames lit it. In other words he used the magic of flame to build and light the Great Hall. (More of this in part 2)

The point of that is that the Drowned God(Fire Front) joined forces with the Grey King to conquer the magic of flame. However, when the Grey King died, the Storm God(Darkness front) came and destroyed the hall and snuffed out the flame of Nagga and probably gave it back to the Darkness. Coincidentally, Victarion, who is already devout to the Drowned God, must now give himself to the Lord of Light(Same Fire front) in order to conquer the magic of flame(Binding Dragons to himself). It will require Blood sacrifice of course(Blood sacrifice of those three who will blow the horn and the blood sacrifice that will bind the horn to Victarion)

Euron Greyjoy has given himself to the Storm God, whether he has realized it or not. He has allegedly already given a blood sacrifice to the Storm God. He is trying to get the Dragons, but he will not(IMO) because that is not his role in this song.

Euron's coat of arms is a red eye, with a black pupil beneath an iron crown held up by two crows:

Also, Euron Greyjoy's nickname is Crow's Eye. More subtle hints at showing his hidden/unknown allegiance. Whenever I think of Red eyes with Black birds I think of Bloodraven. Crows are different than Ravens, but the symbolism is too much to be just a coincidence. Well we all know what side Bloodraven is on. Also the Storm God himself has Ravens as pets.

Euron is very unpredictable, plays vicious mind games, psychological warfare. He is also a skilled warrior, manipulator, cunning, shrewd and ruthless: In other words, he is smart, experienced and plans ahead. He wouldn't attack the Reach for just the hell of it, whether he is anticipating Dragons or not. He knows that Victarion will probably try and betray him, which is why he left out the details that whoever blows the horn will die. This points to a theory that the horn is already binded to Euron.

He claims to have raped and pillaged all over the world, even Valyria, Asshai: Well, it has to be true to a degree because he has goods from all over Essos. What this means is that Euron probably knows more about the current situation of events better than anyone. Its how he knows about Dany. He has a lot of information at his disposal, which no doubt has helped him plan his overall scheme. Maybe he knows of the Battle of Ice and Fire? Hmmm...

He claims to have had a Dragon Egg, but then decided to throw it overboard when he was in a bad mood: I love this line because of its symbolism....Euron Greyjoy, the master manipulator and planner...throws a Dragon Egg overboard because he was in a foul mood? Right. I personally believe that this is GRRM giving the reader a foreshadowing hint. Why would Euron, who seems to covet Dragons, throw and Egg overboard? Even if the guy couldn't awaken the egg within a year, I do not believe that Euron would simply throw the Egg overboard. And honestly, even if he did it still shows the same symbolism. Euron, the Storm God's servant, throw the Dragon Egg into the Sea. He gives to the Drowned God that in which he was seeking all along. After all, it is the Drowned God that will join forces with the Dragon on the flame front. It also foreshadows that Euron is not going to get a Dragon, or maybe doesn't even want it. Maybe it also shows his turn away from the Drowned God and thus the Magic of Flame side. He is of the Storm God. Victarion is of the Drowned God. That is their roles in this song.

The way I see it, Euron Greyjoy knows that Victarion is going to die when he blows the horn. That takes care of one problem. Second, there is a chance that he already binded himself to the horn, which means when/if Victarion blows the horn then the Dragons will go to Euron and you can kiss the reach goodbye. That takes care of two problems and now Euron can conquer the world. He probably doesnt give a shit whatsoever about Dany. However, there is one thing that he did not forsee. Moqorro, who has already saved Victarion from the treachery. Had Euron not joined the Storm God and had he had the balls to travel to Slaver's Bay himself, he would've met Moqorro. However, this is destiny in a song and his fate was sealed the moment he turned to the Darkness. Unbeknownst to him, he gave Victarion more power and a bigger role than he could ever imagine.

The Storm God vs The Droned God:

In this song, Euron Greyjoy is the Storm God

In this song, Victarion Greyjoy is the Drowned God.

Check out this description of the Storm God: He is the eternal enemy of the Drowned God. He lives in cloudy halls and ravens are his creatures. He sets snares to lure the Ironborn to their destruction and send storms at sea. It is said that Storm God's wrath plucked Balon Greyjoy down.(The wood's witch said it was Euron who killed Balon)

Euron is the eternal enemy of Victarion. Crows are his creatures. He has lured the Ironborn to their own demise(Sends Iron Fleet on a perilous journey, in which many have died and will die at the battle of Fire, for his own gain. Another example is how he led the Ironborn into Stannis' trap to the Greyjoy rebellion). And as the Storm God, he killed Balon Greyjoy.

Victarion is the epitome of Ironborn culture. He is the Reaver and he is a harsh deity and believes in the Old Ways. It is what he was born to do. Who knows what would've happened had he been crowned King of the Iron Islands.

History repeats itself. Remember, it was the Storm God that snuffed out the power of the Dragons(Nagga) in ancient times. I wouldn't be surprised if the Storm God had something to do with the Grey King's death as well.

Victarion and Euron will clash. It is their destiny. However, there is one more thing I didn't mentioned. The story points to Victarion joining with Dany and Team Red, but the story points to Euron joining the other side.

Could Euron Greyjoy and the eventual Northern army join sides through convenience or military opportunity? That will fall in line with the whole there is no team good vs team bad. It seems like this is a distinct possibility and hell, the Ironborn are already doing the Northerners a favor by attacking the Reach. Asha Greyjoy becomes invaluable now. Maybe Theon too, if he survives.

The North, Riverlands, Vale and Iron Islands on one side? Wow. Scary to even think that Euron would join any side, but I do not believe Euron's Ironborn will stay independent for long. Eventually the Redwyne Fleet will come. Not getting Dragons will also throw a wrench in Euron's plans.

In The Winds of Winter I predict there will be a parallel between Team Ice and Team Fire.

The beginning will have the battle of Ice: Stannis, Manderlys, Northmen clans vs Freys and Ramsay.. the book will conclude with the travel and Siege of Winterfell where I expect Team Ice to include: Stannis and Southron Men, Northmen Clans, Manderlys, turncloak Northmen inside Winterfell, Glover's Men, Umbers, Jon Snow and Widling horde, Rickon, Osha and the Skagos horde. They will defeat the remaing enemies, including Roose Bolton and reclaim Winterfell in the name of House Stark and get rid of the mummer's joke of fake Arya.

The beginning will have the battle of Fire: Dany, Dothraki, Unsullied, Barristan and his knights, Tyrion Jorah and the Second Sons, The Tattered Prince and his sellswords, Victarion and the Iron Fleet and Marwyn vs the Harpy, Yunaki and Team Green Grace. They will defeat Team Green Grace and then they will travel to King's Landing where they will defeat or ally with Aegon and his army and they will get rid of the mummer's joke of fake Aegon. Joining them will be many Houses of the Reach, Stormlords and possibly Dorne(Though I am not sold on this).

More parallels:

1.) Mummers joke in the North - Fake Arya; Mummer's joke in the South - Fake Aegon

2.) Jon is away from the battle that he MUST be a part of. Dany is away from the battle that she MUST be a part of.

Stannis and Victarion - More evidence of the eternal Ice and Fire struggle.

Victarion was overlooked by his older brother. Victarion is a believer in the Drowned God. He has been sacrificing to him. However, he is slowly turn to the side of Fire and R'hillor. He is going to fight in a battle(Battle of Fire) in order to reclaim the throne for Danearys Targaryan. Victarion must make a sacrifice in order to bind the Dragons to himself.

Stannis was overlooked by his older brother. Stannis is a believer in R'hillor. He has been sacrificing to him. However, he is slowly turning to the side of Ice and the Old Gods. He is going to fight in a battle(Battle of Ice) in order to reclaim the throne(Winterfell) for the Starks. Stannis must make a sacrifice before a heart tree in order to bind the Old Gods and thus the Northmen to himself.

So the Front of Fire loses a vessel, yet gains a new one and the Front of Ice loses a vessel, but gains one in return as well.

Many have written off Victarion and Stannis as 'soon to be dead' however I believe they are just getting started.

[Adam Carmack]

This is just amazing

[armidil0]

My only problem with the Drowned God being apart of 'Team Fire' (I hate that term, too), is that in practice it doesn't have anything to do with fire. Drowning is the major part of the religion, they drown to be baptized, they drown to be sacrificed. When you die you go to a Hall under the sea, with mermaids ect. Nothing screams fire, besides the Grey King casting fire from the Sea, and that the Storm King resembles the Old Gods.

I love all of these assessments, but this is the only thing that still irks me.

[The Mother of Dragons]

I am amazed at your prowess! These are wonderful and they've really opened my eyes to a load of things I haven't noticed about the gods of Westeros and Essos. I can't wait for more.

[The Mother of Dragons]

Sorry for double posting, but have you thought that maybe the Storm God is a not only a symbol of the Old Gods, but for the customs of the rest of the First Men that the Ironmen shunned?

[Warg of Dragons]

Derailment:

I like alot of this! you're references to their "destiny to clash" made me think of something I hit on my re-read. Here it is.

“Will it come to war between them?” asked the maester.

“Ironborn must not spill the blood of ironborn.”

“A pious sentiment, Damphair,” said Goodbrother, “but not one that your brother shares. He

had Sawane Botley drowned for saying that the Seastone Chair by rights belonged to Theon.”

“If he was drowned, no blood was shed,” said Aeron.It

It makes me wonder if aeron will be on hand when one of them get's drowned (witch I am convinced will happen) Will he breathe life back into him? He makes alot of references to him being useless untill he was drowned and returned to the shore in that chapter.

first chapter "The prophet" affc

[David C. Hunter]

My only problem with the Drowned God being apart of 'Team Fire' (I hate that term, too), is that in practice it doesn't have anything to do with fire. Drowning is the major part of the religion, they drown to be baptized, they drown to be sacrificed. When you die you go to a Hall under the sea, with mermaids ect. Nothing screams fire, besides the Grey King casting fire from the Sea, and that the Storm King resembles the Old Gods.

I love all of these assessments, but this is the only thing that still irks me.

I understand what you mean. When I think Ironborn, I never think 'Fire' in any way, but Im not sure that it is supposed to scream fire. My terminology of Ice vs Fire is a gross simpification of everything, so that I could organize all my thoughts. The Ironborn's culture is based on the Sea and Wind, They are Islanders. Thus, their Gods have to do with Wind and Sea. However, it seems that their Gods are basically describing the same Gods of the other religions, except in a context that is based on their society.

Like I said before, I believe all interpretations of religion and magic are all based upon the same force that has a duality with itself. Call it Ice and Fire, Light and Darkness, Summer and Winter, they are all a part of the same force. However , just because one fights on a side does not mean that they are even remotely aware of their role in the song. Did Euron 100% make a blood sacrifice to the Storm God? Whether he did or did not he is acting out on behalf of that force. Victarion is working on behalf of the other force.

I have my own personally theory that the Ironborn myths, legends, religion and lore was based on the remnants of a culture that was on the Iron Islands before them. Here's an example. Many people claim that characters in the Bible saw UFOs. However they realized that the people of that time were too primitive to understand what they were seeing, so they created elaborate symbolism, stories, etc to help themselves and others understand what they were seeing a lot better. Through oral tradition those stories become more and more exaggerated and the truth becomes hard to find.

So, if the Ironborn came across the remnants of a culture long forgotten, they probably could not quite understand what they were seeing. Like in many cultures around the world, we tend to view a more advanced extinct civilization as Gods. (eg - Egypt comparison in Asses. 2)Now did the Ironborn know about the power of flame magic at that time? Probably not, but they knew about the seas. So they took what they perceived to be as the work of Gods and made it into something of their own based off of what they knew, the sea and wind. IWho knows what they saw back then, but Im sure it was more than just a Seastone chair. However, even if they made it their own, it is still tainted with the remnants of their predecessors. Of course this is all just speculation, lol.

However, just to add to this. here is a little background info on the Rhoynar before they fled to Westeros: The Rhoynar were rover dwellers who based their Gods on the river Rhoyne. There was Mother River, who was the primary God and the personification of the River itself. Then there were two lesser Gods, the Old Man of the River and his adversary the Crab King. (One overall force, with a duality amongst itself). Also, despite the Rhoynar being river dwellers with River Gods, their sigil was the Sun, which I think is very important.

I am amazed at your prowess! These are wonderful and they've really opened my eyes to a load of things I haven't noticed about the gods of Westeros and Essos. I can't wait for more.

Thanks!

Sorry for double posting, but have you thought that maybe the Storm God is a not only a symbol of the Old Gods, but for the customs of the rest of the First Men that the Ironmen shunned?

I never though of it. You have any examples?

Derailment:

I like alot of this! you're references to their "destiny to clash" made me think of something I hit on my re-read. Here it is.

“Will it come to war between them?” asked the maester.

“Ironborn must not spill the blood of ironborn.”

“A pious sentiment, Damphair,” said Goodbrother, “but not one that your brother shares. He

had Sawane Botley drowned for saying that the Seastone Chair by rights belonged to Theon.”

“If he was drowned, no blood was shed,” said Aeron.It

It makes me wonder if aeron will be on hand when one of them get's drowned (witch I am convinced will happen) Will he breathe life back into him? He makes alot of references to him being useless untill he was drowned and returned to the shore in that chapter.

first chapter "The prophet" affc

Damphair is a wildcard and I purposefully left him out for that reason. It is a good theory that you have though. I may have to re-read his chapters to see what he is up to, but I have my suspicions.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I've been thinking quite a lot myself about the relation between the important religions, and recently a lot about the Faith. It seems to be the one religion with little importance, but I don't think it is. Reading your assessments I came to the conclusion that it might be the 'in between' religion that brings Ice and Fire together.

The Seven are seven aspects of one god who according to Tyrion once walked through Essos. This could mean that there was one person who had all seven aspects, or seven people who worked together trying to bring peace between Ice and Fire, maybe they made a pact. This could be a reason why the Andals crossed the Narrow Sea..

Jon mentions somewhere, or maybe a few times that on a sunny day the wall is beautiful. When the (sun)light (light/fire) shines on the wall (Ice/darkness), you see little rainbows. The Faith uses crystals (Ice?) and sunlight (Fire?) to create rainbows.

Now assuming that the seven were seven people working together to bring peace, they might be born again too. This could mean several things:

1. Both teams will have the seven on there side, so there are actually 14, to bring them together. That seems a bit unlikely, and confusing.

2. There will be seven in the middle, for team Andals.

3. Both teams will have 3 of the seven, and one will be in the middle playing the part of the one who unites.

4. The Seven aren't seven, but one having all the aspects..

I think 2 and 3 are the most likely.

Assuming 2 is true, all the seven will be Andals, without warging or fire powers, or prophetic abilities. We have:

1.Brienne, who is a Maiden

2.Sam and Tyrion could be the Crone; they both read a lot, and know a lot, especially Sam is training to be an adviser, and have you noticed how he left the Wall on the Ice side to walk right into Marwyn on the Fire side, but now he's in Oldtown and he could change to the neutral side. He also mighyt have the horn of Joramun.

3.Jaime and the Blackfish could both be the Warrior, and especially Jaime seems to be changing into someone who's working on peace.

4.Gendry is a Smith, but I think the Smith doesn't really have to be a smith (septon Meribald)

5.Jaqen is the Stranger, a FM, the bringer of death (PEACE according to the temple of Black and White), there's a statue of the Stranger in this very temple, and Catelyn describes the stranger as not really having features/a face. Arya is a warg, and a Stark so she can't really be neutral.

I'm not sure who could fulfill the roles of Mother and Father on the Andal front, because there are many examples of mothers and fathers, and little that truly stand out. The Father could be LF though, because he GAVE HIMSELF the role of Sansa's (creepy) father. We also don't know his true intentions, it might be he's working 'for the good of the realm' like Varys, which could make Varys the Mother, he's not really male, even dresses up as a woman sometimes, and his little birds are all children, that he uses, but also takes care of, and saves them from the streets. We don't know his true intentions either, he seems to be helping Targs, but claims to hate magic as well.

Now assuming 1 or 3 are true, we have a lot of people on both sides who could play a part. Note that all Dany's prophecies come in three which could mean the Ice needs everything in 3 as well, so 3 of the seven on both sides makes sense.

1. The Maiden could be Sansa (Ice side, probably, although she has lost her wolf) or Brienne (neutral atm) or both in case of 1 where there's one of each on both sides. Note that LF is planning on taking Sansa back to Winferfell, which would get her North.

2. The Crone: Well there are a lot of people who could pass for wise people. On the Ice side we have: Bran, BR (and Jojen?), On the Andal/possibly neutral side we have: Sam and Tyrion, note how they've both been on the Wall, and are going towards Fire, so they might end up in the middle, on the Fire side there's Quaithe, Melissandre and Moqorro. Melissandre is now presenting Fire on the Wall...

3. Jon could definitely pass for the Warrior on the Ice side, Victarion or Barristan could be fire warriors.. In the middle is Jaime.

4. The Smith is more vague, on the neutral or Fire side could be Gendry, he adopted R'hllor, so he could be moving towards Fire. If we look at tthe Snith as more of a labourer/one that makes the path (the cobbler), Crow's Eye could be the one on the Ice side; he seems to be working on clearing the path for Ice.

5.The Stranger; Arya and Jaqen are possible candidates, the stranger would be either neutral, or there is to be one on both sides Jaqen mentions that Arya has stolen souls from R'hllor, which could mean he presents Fire, Arya is a wolf girl, which would mean she's on the Ice side. Jaqen could be neutral.

6. The Mother; Dany would be the Mother on the Fire side, I don't know who could fulfill that role for Ice

7. The father: Not a clue on either side, too little, and too many options.

And last, option 4, there's one person with all capacities. It's hard to find that person though, I think it might be Brienne;

1. She's a Maiden

2. She's looking for Sansa to take care of her, she's playing the role of a Mother

3. She wants to protect Sansa, and also protects Jaime (although we don't know what's going to happen now), and Podrick; she's playing the role of a Father.

4. She's a Warrior (no doubt about that)

5. She could be a Smith (hard worker)

The Crone and the Stranger don't seem to be in her though. She has killed people, but not as a gift of mercy. The stranger/Many Faced God brings death/PEACE to all, on both sides, without judgement. Brienne only killed when threatened. She doesn't seem to be very wise or smart either, so not very much a crone, but who knows. I don't think it's a coincident she pan into septon Meribald, and that he told het about how the Smith can be interpreted as every form of labour, and that they ran into 'a maiden, a mother, and a crone' too.

Well those are my thoughts, I might be completely off, but I'm sure the Faith is more important than it seems. I also know there are many more people who could be any of them, but the ones I mentioned seem the most likely to me.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

On second thought, Sam could be the Seven in one as well. He Started as one of the Faith, took his vows before the Old Gods, and now Ran into the Fire team. That makes him neutral basically. He also like Brienne has male and female characteristics.

1. The Maiden: He likes singing, dancing, and pretty things, and had a certain innocence.

2. The Mother: he's becoming a maester; someone who heals and takes care of people. He also took care of Gilly and her baby.

3. The Father: He saved and protected Gilly and her baby, he's also planning on telling his family the baby is his.

4. The Smith: This one is vague, but Maester is more a job/ labourer than a title. He has to learn to become one. He also was a steward, and served Maester Aemon. And Maesters in general SERVE, they don't RULE.

5. The Warrior: he's not the traditional idea of a warrior, but he's called Sam the Slayer, and he fought when necessary.

6. The Crone: Well Maesters are wise aren't they? They advise the ones they serve. They give council, the characteristics of the crone.

7. The Stranger: A maester has both the power to heal and kill.

[armidil0]

@Amber Eyes, I don';t think we'll see real personificagions of the Sven, but one single champion, maybe.

I (sort of) subscribe to the theory that Davos is the Champion of the Seven.

I'm trying to find a hardcover version of GoT so I can start my rereads, I'll post something if I find anything interesting about the seven.

But I also don't think that there are any gods, but just magic being interpreted in a dualistic way. And the people, like the ironborn, take what they 'remember' from the previous culture, and mash it with there own to make there religion (if you agree with David). Having aspects of Fire, and Water/Wind (which would normally be opposites) against Ice. (simpliefied, bu still sort of true).

[The Lord's Kiss]

This is so awesome. I didn't realize we would be getting a third assessment so soon. I think your interpretation of Victarion as the Drowned God and Euron as the Storm God is spot on. And I definitely agree that Stannis needs to sacrifice someone at the heart-tree. I just hope it is not Theon, I enjoy reading his chapters far too much. I hope it's someone like Karstark or Clayton Suggs.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

@Amber Eyes, I don';t think we'll see real personificagions of the Sven, but one single champion, maybe.

I (sort of) subscribe to the theory that Davos is the Champion of the Seven.

I'm trying to find a hardcover version of GoT so I can start my rereads, I'll post something if I find anything interesting about the seven.

But I also don't think that there are any gods, but just magic being interpreted in a dualistic way. And the people, like the ironborn, take what they 'remember' from the previous culture, and mash it with there own to make there religion (if you agree with David). Having aspects of Fire, and Water/Wind (which would normally be opposites) against Ice. (simpliefied, bu still sort of true).

I'm starting to lean towards one champion as well, I'm leaning towards Sam at the moment, although the Maiden in him might be a bit far fetched, I look for it in his relative innocence, and love for music and dancing. I looked up the Song of the Seven he sang to Gilly;

The Father's face is stern and strong, he sits and judges right from wrong.

He weighs our lives, the short and long, and loves the little children

I think the children are important in this song. He judged Craster, and took action to protect Gilly and her baby, even though it's not in his nature to do brave things. The stern and strong face sounds very northern, which seems to be an Ice (darkness) aspect.

The Mother gives the gift of life, and watches over every wife.

Her gentle smile ends all strife, and she loves her little children

By saving Gilly, he gave her baby the gift of life, and he watched over Gilly (the wife). The Mother is always represented as being gentle, in every song (Gente mother, blabla of mercy..)

The Warrior stands before the foe, protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow, he guards the little children.

Although Sam isn't much of a warrior, he did have it in him when it really mattered. To slay an Other, and to protect (guard) Gilly and her baby from the wights.

The Crone is very wise and old, and sees our fates as they unfold.

She lifts her lamp of shining gold, to lead the little children.

Sam is someone with a lot of knowledge, and at the point of gaining a lot more. He could be the one to lead the path. He has to forge his chain pretty quickly though. Apparently the very quick novice (forgot the name) in AFFC prologue forged 3 in a year, and 1 a year was normal.. how much quicker can Sam be? Both prophetic powers and light are mentioned, Prophecy appears both on Ice and Fire side (greensight, and flames), she has a light, to light the path.

The Smith, he labors day and night, to put the world of men to right.

With hammer, plow, and fire bright, he builds for little children

I'm not too convinced of this one, but at least he's reading day and night, and the maesters are a serving order, as I said before. Fire is mentioned which supports that the Seven combine Ice and Fire.

The Maiden dances through the sky, she lives in every lover's sigh.

Her smiles teach the birds to fly, and gives dreams to little children.

Hehe Sam as every lover;s wet dream... But dancing=Sam. Teaching birds to fly=ravens? Giving dreams to children, weirwoods? That would support my theory that the Faith combines both Ice and Fire.

The Seven Gods who made us all, are listening if we should call.

So close your eyes, you shall not fall, they see you, little children.

This sounds much like weirwood, and Ice, and very much like Bran's story..

So half of this is to support Sam as the Seven's champion, and the other half to support the uniting powers of the Faith. It's just a theory, and I'm not entirely convinced myself, but the religions seem so important, that I can't imagine that the Faith won't play an important part as well, and by important I don't mean the Sparrows taking over power in KL, just for the sake of making people more religious for a religion that has no true purpose at all.

I'd like to hear why you think Davos would be their champion. I know he's still a man of the Faith, but I don't see many of the seven aspects in him.

[armidil0]

I'd like to hear why you think Davos would be their champion. I know he's still a man of the Faith, but I don't see many of the seven aspects in him.

There was a really short lived thread once about it. It had to deal with Davos surviving after the Blackwater, and having Saan find him (lucky him, it was an ally, not one of the thousands of enemies Stannis has), and he heard the Mother whisper to him that he needs to do more for his religion, and not take such a backseat to Mel when burning the effigies of the Seven.

Like I said, when I get a new GoT book I'll go through and reread paying perticular attention to the Seven. I know there was specific evidence for it at one point, I'll just find it again.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

There was a really short lived thread once about it. It had to deal with Davos surviving after the Blackwater, and having Saan find him (lucky him, it was an ally, not one of the thousands of enemies Stannis has), and he heard the Mother whisper to him that he needs to do more for his religion, and not take such a backseat to Mel when burning the effigies of the Seven.

Like I said, when I get a new GoT book I'll go through and reread paying perticular attention to the Seven. I know there was specific evidence for it at one point, I'll just find it again.

Ah thanks, I just started a new re-re-reread doing exactly that, but I just started reading AGOT again, so it'll be a while before I get there. I never paid much attention to the Faith on my previous reads, there's so much to pay attention to!

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Very interesting thoughts, though I would make one general point. You WILL walk straight into walls if you try to make everything fit perfectly. Even the best symbolism model can have some holes in it (at least for the moment), it is better to make no connection than a weak (or literal one). For example, Amber Eyes brings up:

The Maiden dances through the sky, she lives in every lover's sigh.

Her smiles teach the birds to fly, and gives dreams to little children.

Hehe Sam as every lover;s wet dream... But dancing=Sam. Teaching birds to fly=ravens? Giving dreams to children, weirwoods? That would support my theory that the Faith combines both Ice and Fire.

The bold parts seem rather to point to someone who inspires positive thoughts in people, than someone who literally teaches birds to fly. ;)

So, general point, rather than make everything fit, take a step back and dare to leave some gaps. It takes some courage, I know ;). (And maybe, no offense, try to cut back on repetition in description, short arguments are better liked ;)).

I got one special remark while reading through the texts.

He claims to have had a Dragon Egg, but then decided to throw it overboard when he was in a bad mood: I love this line because of its symbolism....Euron Greyjoy, the master manipulator and planner...throws a Dragon Egg overboard because he was in a foul mood? Right. I personally believe that this is GRRM giving the reader a foreshadowing hint. Why would Euron, who seems to covet Dragons, throw and Egg overboard? Even if the guy couldn't awaken the egg within a year, I do not believe that Euron would simply throw the Egg overboard.

What if that is one part of waking a "sea dragon"/kraken? Throwing a dragon egg into the sea (and maybe sacrificing someone at the same time). Where exactly is that described though? I can't really remember that from the books ;)

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

You're right Peasant Rebel Leader, I was a bit repetitive. I like to hear myself talk. Now I re-read what I said it makes a bit less sense than before, staring too long at possible connections makes you see things that aren't really there. However I do believe Sam might be a likely champion for the Seven.

[jarl the climber]

I'm starting to lean towards one champion as well, I'm leaning towards Sam at the moment, although the Maiden in him might be a bit far fetched, I look for it in his relative innocence, and love for music and dancing. I looked up the Song of the Seven he sang to Gilly;

The Father's face is stern and strong, he sits and judges right from wrong.

He weighs our lives, the short and long, and loves the little children

I think the children are important in this song. He judged Craster, and took action to protect Gilly and her baby, even though it's not in his nature to do brave things. The stern and strong face sounds very northern, which seems to be an Ice (darkness) aspect.

The Mother gives the gift of life, and watches over every wife.

Her gentle smile ends all strife, and she loves her little children

By saving Gilly, he gave her baby the gift of life, and he watched over Gilly (the wife). The Mother is always represented as being gentle, in every song (Gente mother, blabla of mercy..)

The Warrior stands before the foe, protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow, he guards the little children.

Although Sam isn't much of a warrior, he did have it in him when it really mattered. To slay an Other, and to protect (guard) Gilly and her baby from the wights.

The Crone is very wise and old, and sees our fates as they unfold.

She lifts her lamp of shining gold, to lead the little children.

Sam is someone with a lot of knowledge, and at the point of gaining a lot more. He could be the one to lead the path. He has to forge his chain pretty quickly though. Apparently the very quick novice (forgot the name) in AFFC prologue forged 3 in a year, and 1 a year was normal.. how much quicker can Sam be? Both prophetic powers and light are mentioned, Prophecy appears both on Ice and Fire side (greensight, and flames), she has a light, to light the path.

The Smith, he labors day and night, to put the world of men to right.

With hammer, plow, and fire bright, he builds for little children

I'm not too convinced of this one, but at least he's reading day and night, and the maesters are a serving order, as I said before. Fire is mentioned which supports that the Seven combine Ice and Fire.

The Maiden dances through the sky, she lives in every lover's sigh.

Her smiles teach the birds to fly, and gives dreams to little children.

Hehe Sam as every lover;s wet dream... But dancing=Sam. Teaching birds to fly=ravens? Giving dreams to children, weirwoods? That would support my theory that the Faith combines both Ice and Fire.

The Seven Gods who made us all, are listening if we should call.

So close your eyes, you shall not fall, they see you, little children.

This sounds much like weirwood, and Ice, and very much like Bran's story..

So half of this is to support Sam as the Seven's champion, and the other half to support the uniting powers of the Faith. It's just a theory, and I'm not entirely convinced myself, but the religions seem so important, that I can't imagine that the Faith won't play an important part as well, and by important I don't mean the Sparrows taking over power in KL, just for the sake of making people more religious for a religion that has no true purpose at all.

I'd like to hear why you think Davos would be their champion. I know he's still a man of the Faith, but I don't see many of the seven aspects in him.

Yet Sam swore his oath to a heart tree. Its hard to see the Faiths champion doing that. Sam is also the only character I can think of who prayed to the Gods for intervention and actually received it. He prayed to the heart tree in the same chapter and asked the Old Gods for aid. Coldhands and his ravens showed up and drove off the wights and guided Sam to the Wall. I think he does refer to them as Jons Gods, however.

As far as Davos goes. I agree with the idea of him being a champion of the Faith. One of 7.

[Hustle]

Patchface prophacy:

“We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

“Under the sea, men marry fishes.” Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. “They do, they do, they do.”

So, in the sea and out again, sounds kind of like the drownded men, right.

Aside, I LOVE this. Stannis and Victorian are two characters who are so different, yet alike. It is perfect.

[Fragon]

Stannis and Victarion - More evidence of the eternal Ice and Fire struggle.

Victarion was overlooked by his older brother. Victarion is a believer in the Drowned God. He has been sacrificing to him. However, he is slowly turn to the side of Fire and R'hillor. He is going to fight in a battle(Battle of Fire) in order to reclaim the throne for Danearys Targaryan. Victarion must make a sacrifice in order to bind the Dragons to himself.

Stannis was overlooked by his older brother. Stannis is a believer in R'hillor. He has been sacrificing to him. However, he is slowly turning to the side of Ice and the Old Gods. He is going to fight in a battle(Battle of Ice) in order to reclaim the throne(Winterfell) for the Starks. Stannis must make a sacrifice before a heart tree in order to bind the Old Gods and thus the Northmen to himself.

So the Front of Fire loses a vessel, yet gains a new one and the Front of Ice loses a vessel, but gains one in return as well.

Many have written off Victarion and Stannis as 'soon to be dead' however I believe they are just getting started.

Isn't Drowned God already on the side of Fire? It seems a bit misfit to me :/

Otherwise, I love your analysis in these assessments, they're very interesting to read ;)

[David C. Hunter]

Isn't Drowned God already on the side of Fire? It seems a bit misfit to me :/

Otherwise, I love your analysis in these assessments, they're very interesting to read ;)

Yea, I realized after I wrote it that Victarion was always on the Fire side, lol. My bad