Brotherhood without Banners and their cave....

[Starks Among Us]

This has probably already been discussed, but as I'm re-reading SoS, I noticed this passage that I did not take fully into consideration upon my first read-through.

This is from Arya's POV in SoS....

"When Harwin pulled the hood off her head, the ruddy glare inside the hollow hill made Arya blink like some stupid owl.

A huge firepit had been dug in the center of the earthen floor, and its flames rose swirling and crackling toward the smoke-stained ceiling. The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes. People were emerging from between those roots as she watched, edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides. In one place on the far side of the fire the roots formed a kind of stairway up to a hollow in the earth where a man sat almost lost in the tangle of weirwood.

Lem unhooded Gendry. 'what is this place?' he asked.

'An old place, deep and secret. A refuge where neither wolves nor lions come prowling.'

Neither wolves nor lions. Arya's skin prickled. She remembered the dream she'd had, and the taste of blood when she tore the man's arm from his shoulder.

...

The voice came from the weirwood roots halfway up the wall"

Ok, so on my second read-through I guess I had a few questions ....

1) is this a cave that used to belong to CotF?

2) if this is a weirwood and a cave used by CotF at one point, then how do the old God's feel about the fire God being worshipped in their cave?

3) Does this passage hold more significance/meaning? Is it foreshadowing of something else, is it just introducing the reader to the weirwood caves?

4) Is Beric sitting in a weirwood throne?

5) The second to last line where Arya's skin prickled and she remembers the dream and the taste of blood...is she really remembering her dream? Or is the "blood" she tastes not blood she tasted as Nymeria but blood she tastes because she is in the cave of an old weirwood? Similar to Bran when he tastes the blood in ADwD?

Just curious on any thoughts....Sorry if this topic has already been discussed....

[King Blackfyre]

I always thought the Brotherhood without Banners were hiding on the Isle of Faces. Due to proximity to their area of operations, the occurence of weirwood roots, and its otherwise isolated nature.

If that is the case, then 1) It could very well be a old CotH cave.

2) So far the Old Gods seem more tolerant than the red priests.

3) Perhaps it never was R'hllor who resurected Dondarrion, but simple sorcery strengthened through the weirwoods and the Old Gods?

4) Could be, but probably a coincidence. There doesn't seem to be lot of options for sitting down.

5) I do not know, but I like your train of thought!

[The Chequered Raven]

There is no mention of using a boat, so it's unelikely that the cave is at the isle of faces.

I think it's an old cave of the children. The andals have burned the weirwoods, but it seems their roots go deep, and lacking hydraulic shovels, they have been obviously to lazy to dig out the roots with spades...

Arya's taste of blood - I think this is just her memory of a wolf-dream. Arya is just a warg, Bran is a greenseer, and even he has required training and the weirwood-paste bevore he was able to connect with the tree.

[Starks Among Us]

I think it's odd that she should remember her wolf dream just because she's in the cave, it just seems like an out of place statement, why would being in the cave trigger her wolf dream? Granted it could simply be because they mentioned "no wolves or lions" and that triggered it, but I still feel like it's a slightly out of place thought. Perhaps it's because their wolves were given to the Stark kids by the old Gods,and when she's in the cave of the old Gods that gave her the wolf it brings up some sort of connection that she is unaware of? I could be reading too much into it, I just think the thought seems a little out of place.

As far as location, I was thinking it was underneath of the hill where they meet the little old woman...where the circle of weirwoods are that have been cut down? I forget the name of the hill or the old woman's name but I just thought it might have been there, I did not even think of the isle of faces, though that's an interesting thought.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I always thought the Brotherhood without Banners were hiding on the Isle of Faces. Due to proximity to their area of operations, the occurence of weirwood roots, and its otherwise isolated nature.

If that is the case, then 1) It could very well be a old CotH cave.

2) So far the Old Gods seem more tolerant than the red priests.

3) Perhaps it never was R'hllor who resurected Dondarrion, but simple sorcery strengthened through the weirwoods and the Old Gods?

SNIP...

2. I don't know about that so much... We really don't know much about the old gods and what we do know suggests they were given blood sacrifices. You may see Thoros as a nice red priest but I offer him as an exception to the rule. Mel burning people alive is pretty sadistic...

3. Def a "kiss of fire" that resurrected Beric and Cat, it's R'hllor and has nothing to do w/ trees.

I think it's odd that she should remember her wolf dream just because she's in the cave, it just seems like an out of place statement, why would being in the cave trigger her wolf dream? Granted it could simply be because they mentioned "no wolves or lions" and that triggered it, but I still feel like it's a slightly out of place thought. Perhaps it's because their wolves were given to the Stark kids by the old Gods,and when she's in the cave of the old Gods that gave her the wolf it brings up some sort of connection that she is unaware of? I could be reading too much into it, I just think the thought seems a little out of place.

As far as location, I was thinking it was underneath of the hill where they meet the little old woman...where the circle of weirwoods are that have been cut down? I forget the name of the hill or the old woman's name but I just thought it might have been there, I did not even think of the isle of faces, though that's an interesting thought.

I think it is possibly just the mention of wolves and lions that harkens back to her recent "wolf dream" as she was a wolf eating lions (not really sure what her wolf dream was before this incident if anyone can elaborate).

Good topic, glad we can discuss this as there may be some significance to a BWB HQ in the weirwood roots.

BTW IIRC the ring of weirwood stumps you were mentioning where the old hermit lady lives is called "High Hill".

[Starks Among Us]

2. I don't know about that so much... We really don't know much about the old gods and what we do know suggests they were given blood sacrifices. You may see Thoros as a nice red priest but I offer him as an exception to the rule. Mel burning people alive is pretty sadistic...

3. Def a "kiss of fire" that resurrected Beric and Cat, it's R'hllor and has nothing to do w/ trees.

I think it is possibly just the mention of wolves and lions that harkens back to her recent "wolf dream" as she was a wolf eating lions (not really sure what her wolf dream was before this incident if anyone can elaborate).

Good topic, glad we can discuss this as there may be some significance to a BWB HQ in the weirwood roots.

BTW IIRC the ring of weirwood stumps you were mentioning where the old hermit lady lives is called "High Hill".

- at first I thought that too, that the mention of wolves and lions recalled her dream, but then I started thinking further into it and thought perhaps that it still sounded a bit out of place.

- yes, I think you're right, "High Hill" sounds correct- is the lair under High Hill?

-there has been some speculation on other threads that perhaps BWB is getting assistance from the Neck or Crannogmen...do we think BWB just stumbled accross this spot or did they have help in finding it? If they stumbled accross it, chances are, someone else would too. If they had help, who would have given it to them? Crannogmen? If that's the case, how would they feel (as they worship the old gods) that BWB is worshipping the red god?

This is all very perplexing and I think I am puttin way too much thought into it.

I would still be interested in knowing what the significance of the BWB HQ is, I mean, obviously it is the place of the old gods, possibly CotF, GRRM (i don't think) would have just put them their in a cave of the old gods and possibly CotF if it wasn't supposed to have any further meaning....? I am expressing my thoughts poorly.

[Black Crow]

The big hill (probably inspired by Silbury) was High Heart, but judging by their wanderings the cave where the the Brotherhood were hanging out was a different Sidhe hill - definitely not on the Island of Faces though. Nobody used a boat to get there and nobody, including Sandor, used a boat to leave

[Starks Among Us]

The big hill (probably inspired by Silbury) was High Heart, but judging by their wanderings the cave where the the Brotherhood were hanging out was a different Sidhe hill - definitely not on the Island of Faces though. Nobody used a boat to get there and nobody, including Sandor, used a boat to leave

One of the other interesting oberservation that Arya makes is that the offshoots of the cave could go 2 feet or 2 miles....so it makes you wonder just how far do these caves go and where do they go to? Do they connect to other caves? Or.....could it be at the isle of faces "on old place" ? They are in a cave after all, perhaps the cave runs under the water , hence not needing a boat...? We don't know how long they walked in that cave before removing Arya's blindfold....sheer speculation.

Black Crow- do you think there is any significance to the BWB having a cave where the old Gods are, or do you think it's sheer coincidence and they do not really know what they stumbled upon? Do you have any answer as to what purpose GRRM could have by using a cave of the old gods as the HQ for BWB? Wouldn't the old gods view it as sort of a slap in the face that red god worshippers are there?

[VaramyrSixchins]

It's not the High Heart hill, the party travels there a couple chapters later and gets the Ghosts dreams related to them, the same chapter where Ned Dayne and Arya speak.

There are some interesting parallels between the appearance of Dondarrion and Bloodraven, though. Both make a first appearance in a cave, seated on weirwood roots, both are missing an eye, both have a distinguishing black mark (BR w birthmark, Beric w long black scar tissue on his neck), both wear remnants of black cloaks, and both, of course, immortal. I like the parallels of the old God immortal mentor in BR w Bran and the Lord of Light immortal eventually going to Cat, who is not only a Stark by marriage, but daughter of the Liege lord of BR's house, the only one in the riverlands that keeps the old gods.

[Starks Among Us]

It's not the High Heart hill, the party travels there a couple chapters later and gets the Ghosts dreams related to them, the same chapter where Ned Dayne and Arya speak.

There are some interesting parallels between the appearance of Dondarrion and Bloodraven, though. Both make a first appearance in a cave, seated on weirwood roots, both are missing an eye, both have a distinguishing black mark (BR w birthmark, Beric w long black scar tissue on his neck), both wear remnants of black cloaks, and both, of course, immortal. I like the parallels of the old God immortal mentor in BR w Bran and the Lord of Light immortal eventually going to Cat, who is not only a Stark by marriage, but daughter of the Liege lord of BR's house, the only one in the riverlands that keeps the old gods.

but that would put cat and bran on opposite sides of the coming war......

nice parallels!!

[The Great Cornholio!]

If the cave is on the Isle of Faces then where are the Green Men? Aren't they the guardians of the Isle?

I think all magic is the same. Just practiced by people who call it different stuff. I say this because even Mel notes here increase in magic ability on the wall.

[Starks Among Us]

If the cave is on the Isle of Faces then where are the Green Men? Aren't they the guardians of the Isle?

I think all magic is the same. Just practiced by people who call it different stuff. I say this because even Mel notes here increase in magic ability on the wall.

So do you think they are all worshipping the same god only by different names/ methods?

[The Great Cornholio!]

Pretty much. I think theres just magic. How you arrive at it is just a method.

[Nelapsi]

If the cave is on the Isle of Faces then where are the Green Men? Aren't they the guardians of the Isle?

I think all magic is the same. Just practiced by people who call it different stuff. I say this because even Mel notes here increase in magic ability on the wall.

I've been thinking this for a while now, but with a slightly differnt approach : I imagine all the gods are real, but they all depend on magic itself as a kind of "fuel", you know? And maybe the gods influence mankind in order to prove who is the most powerful. crackpot ofc