When was Sansa ever "cruel" or "mean" to Jon

[Raksha the Demon]

We have gone over this before and we are not going to agree. Nothing suggest Sansa ever had anything against Jon personally. Being referred to as her half brother ALL the time is what he thinks off. Not Sansa's love for sewing and songs. Jon himself loves songs and the heroes of old too. The fault is not that Sansa did not get along well with Jon, but that she was a snob and looked down on people lower down the social ladder.

Sansa may have observed and respected the gulf between people of different classes; but she did not look down on all people who were of lower social station. Her best friend and companion, Jeyne Poole, was the daughter of her father's steward; and definitely Sansa's social 'inferior'. Sansa tried to be courteous to Ilyn Payne; she would have known, to look at him, that he was not exactly a lord; and she touched the Hound, despite his being quite surly and rather scary to her.

I will grant that Sansa looked down on Mycah. If I were an 11-year-old girl whose father was the high lord of the North, I probably would have looked down on a butcher's son who tended to smell badly and not bathe frequently; though I certainly would have been polite to the lad if I saw him; and would have valued him as one of my own smallfolk/staff if he was part of Winterfell (which poor Mycah was not).

To expect all the Westerosi lords and their children to have the egalitarian attitudes of our own time is a bit much, I think. There is a range of tolerance and respect that the powerful lords/ladies have towards social inferiors - the Lannisters are probably the most arrogant (with the possible exception of Tyrion), Ned Stark probably the least arrogant (and listens to the concerns of all his retainers, tries to get to know them, and seems to care about the welfare of smallfolk). But even Arya has her own prejudices - where her sister wants to hang out with people of the highest rank, Arya usually scorns them; and is quite disdainful of young Tommen Lannister (who is a perfectly nice kid) because he's "fat". Jon is shocked that he's being mocked by newly recruited lawbreakers in the Night's Watch until he gets a reality check (from Noye, I think).

[mormont]

I was actually admitting I didn't have TEXTUAL evidence up front because when I posted this I was at work and didn't have the books in front of me. And now that I'm home I frankly don't see the point of digging through a novel in an attempt to prove some point that seems to only be questionable to a small few. So if it makes you feel any better you WIN. Congratulations!

It doesn't make me feel any better and I have no interest in 'winning'. We're not involved in a contest here. But it does irk me when people use an appeal to authority, citing the text (or the author) in the vaguest of terms, and then try to build an argument on that without providing the evidence. You, for example, said:

I think its stated that she pretty much ignored him. I'm not sure where but I'm confident Sansa didn't pay Jon much attention. Again is this cruel? That's debatable.

Nothing in there indicates anything less than the stated 'confidence' that you are right about what the text says. Yet you don't cite any evidence to back that claim up. (It annoys me equally when people say things like 'I'm sure GRRM said somewhere that X is true' and then go on to build their argument on this, without looking for the quote.)

The fact is, the point is debatable to numerous people on both sides, as this thread clearly indicates. This is precisely the sort of area where we do need to go look at the text and what it says. I'm not demanding that you, in particular, do so; there are numerous good reasons why a person might not want to or be able to. I'm saying that it's pointless for you to make appeals to textual evidence if you can't or won't check them or back them up.

I place the blame on the distance between Sansa on Jon on Sansa' shoulders, because she is the one, who sets up block between Jon and the rest of her siblings.

This sort of thing is also pretty pointless. You're allocating blame for something that we have no evidence even happened!

What 'distance' was there between Jon and Sansa? What 'block' did she set up between him and the rest of his siblings? Where is the evidence for these things? All the evidence shows that Jon got on pretty well with all of his siblings, including Sansa. There was no block. There was no distance.

[Dove]

The only 'evidence' I can think of was Sansa correcting Arya about Jon being a bastard and not trueborn, but that's flimsy. They weren't as close as Jon and Arya, by any means, but they still think of each other warmly on occasion and don't reflect on any unpleasantness. I never got any impression of any feuding or coldness between the two, personally, and especially not of Sansa going out of her way to isolate him from the rest of the kids.

I remember two specific instants of them thinking of each other in a friendly manner, and none in any kind of negative way: When Sansa is reflecting on her identity as Alayne Stone she thinks of Jon and how much she'd like to see him again, and when Jon is remembering all the siblings that are lost to him after he gets the pink letter in ADWD Sansa's right there in his thoughts.

Jon reflects on Cat's treatment of him, so it stands to reason that he would of Sansa too if her coldness was in any way comparable. He doesn't, unless I'm completely blanking something

Didn't you know? Sansa worst person in Westeros.

also this is my favorite thread holy moly

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

I always got the impression Sansa cared for and about Jon, she just didnt have a deeper bond with him like Arya, Robb, or Bran.

[Daphne23]

The only 'evidence' I can think of was Sansa correcting Arya about Jon being a bastard and not trueborn, but that's flimsy.

I agree, and I also think this quotation has to be read in the context of the conversation, which isn't about Jon:

She [sansa] looked at Arya. "What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He's very gallant, don't you think?"

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

"He's our brother," Arya said, much too loudly... Septa Mordane raised her eyes... "What are you talking about, children?"

"Our half brother," Sansa corrected, soft and precise.

I think this particular conversation tells us more about Sansa and Arya's relationship than about Jon and Sansa's. Sansa is clearly annoyed at Arya's repetition of Jon's comment about Joff, and gives what is actually a fairly accurate explanation of Jon's reasons for making that comment, to deny it validity. Arya reacts to Sansa's use of the term 'bastard', even though it's not meant to be pejorative, only descriptive. Sansa then notes that 'bastard' is an accurate way to describe Jon, and I think that her final comment comes across as a dig at Arya, and/or a desire to get in the last word before the septa interrupts them, rather than driven by a desire to belittle Jon. So sisterly squabbling, rather than evidence of a gulf between Jon and Sansa.

Jon does remember that Sansa always called him 'half-brother', but I think there's another clue about that in this conversation; Sansa is 'precise' about the term, which implies that she's interested in things being done the 'correct' way, rather than deliberately using the term to exclude Jon from the family. The use of the term may have upset Jon, and I don't think anybody is arguing that Jon and Sansa were incredibly close, but Jon is extremely sensitive about being a bastard, and I don't think Sansa intended to upset him.

[messem]

Sansa may have observed and respected the gulf between people of different classes; but she did not look down on all people who were of lower social station. Her best friend and companion, Jeyne Poole, was the daughter of her father's steward; and definitely Sansa's social 'inferior'.

I truly never received the impression that Jeyne was her friend. Companion, yes. They have the same age, Jeyne lives in Winterfell and that's it. I think she "respected" the gulf between people of different classes too much to befriend Jeyne.

[Sansa_Stark]

I recall Sansa looking down at Arya because "she talked to everyone" including the various servants of Winterfell.

[Direwolfsigil]

I recall Sansa looking down at Arya because "she talked to everyone" including the various servants of Winterfell.

"Arya would make friends with anyone."

( italics in the text, not my personal emphasis)

then she names a bunch of lowborn titles, it's not a harsh view but she definitely separates them from her family and other lords.