Orys Baratheon

[joluoto]

Maybe Baratheon was his mother's family name.

[Toccs]

Maybe Baratheon was his mother's family name.

I'm still betting it's a Valyrian god. It sounds similar to Balerion and since all 3 of his siblings got a dragon named after a god maybe taking the name of one for his own was Orys' way of compensating.

[History of Westeros]

I don't know about being kings, but Elio mentions in another thread that the Tullys were a very minor house in past time, and something happened that made them powerful by Aegon's Conquest that they were chosen as the new river rulers. And that something we'll learn in the World of Ice and Fire.

As for upjumped houses, none strikes me harder than house Whent. Seventh house to hold Harrenhal after AL, couldn't have held the castle for more than 200 years, probably not even close to that much. No one talks about the ancient hold of the Whents, if they even had one at all, and in a matter of a century or two they went from nobodies to lords of the biggest castle in Westeros, to putting a member of the family in the Kingsguard, to absolute ruin again.

The Whents held Harrenhal for no more than ~65 years, but likely less than that.

The Lothstons and Strongs held it the longest. I favor the timeline that has Strong holding it from ~48 (end of the War vs. Faith) to 130 (supporting Rhaenyra in the Dance). Lothston would have it from 130 til about 235-250. They likely lost it by supporting the 3rd or 4th Blackfyre Rebellion. The Whents got it, and I'm guessing they were Lothston kin of some sort due to the extreme similarity in their sigils. Lothston = one bat on silver/gold, Whent = 9 bats on the exact same gold.

[History of Westeros]

No, the Baratheon line only mixed with the Durrendons when Orys married the Storm Queen, but Ned reads in the first book that Orys himself had black hair.

This is from the TV show, right? It's certainly not in the books.

[Lord Varys]

Harrenhal was held by Houses Qoherys, Towers, Harroway, Strong, Lothston, and Whent. Qoherys was the first house, Strong held it - most likely - from a certain time during the reign of Jaehaerys I until the Dance. My theory about House Strong being an offshoot of House Targaryen - made up from the fact that Rhaenyra's first husband was supposed to be Lord Lyonel Strong of Harrenhal (source was the RPG sourcebook) - is most likely wrong since Rhaenyra no longer was married to Lord Lyonel Strong. But the Strongs still do feature prominently during the Dance. And Rhaenyra still has two husbands, but the first is no longer a Strong. The second - father of Aegon III and Viserys II - is apparently some sort of Targaryen wonder.

According to the same RPG sourcebook Harrenhal passed from Qoherys to Towers to Harroway to Strong to Lothston to Whent (followed by Houses Slynt and Baelish). I'm not yet sure if this is going to turn out to be the last word on the matter. But I'd be surprised if the Lothstons really hold Harrenhal from the end of the Dance to the death of Maekar I. The common theory is that the rebel lord who killed King Maekar was the then ruling Lord Lothston of Harrenhal. GRRM already confirmed that said lord was no Blackfyre pretender.

[History of Westeros]

Harrenhal was held by Houses Qoherys, Towers, Harroway, Strong, Lothston, and Whent. Qoherys was the first house, Strong held it - most likely - from a certain time during the reign of Jaehaerys I until the Dance. My theory about House Strong being an offshoot of House Targaryen - made up from the fact that Rhaenyra's first husband was supposed to be Lord Lyonel Strong of Harrenhal (source was the RPG sourcebook) - is most likely wrong since Rhaenyra no longer was married to Lord Lyonel Strong. But the Strongs still do feature prominently during the Dance. And Rhaenyra still has two husbands, but the first is no longer a Strong. The second - father of Aegon III and Viserys II - is apparently some sort of Targaryen wonder.

According to the same RPG sourcebook Harrenhal passed from Qoherys to Towers to Harroway to Strong to Lothston to Whent (followed by Houses Slynt and Baelish). I'm not yet sure if this is going to turn out to be the last word on the matter. But I'd be surprised if the Lothstons really hold Harrenhal from the end of the Dance to the death of Maekar I. The common theory is that the rebel lord who killed King Maekar was the then ruling Lord Lothston of Harrenhal. GRRM already confirmed that said lord was no Blackfyre pretender.

I agree that Lord Lothston could easily be responsible for Maekar, but they could've lost Harrenhal to the 3rd or 4th BF rebellions as well. I'm starting to think Maekar fits better but we really have no idea when BF3 or 4 were, so I am neutral.

Why would it be strange for the Lothstons to rule from 131-233?

I suspect the Strongs held it from ~48-131, which is a similar length of time. There's not much wiggle room unless the Strongs didn't actually lose it to the Dance. Ben Blackthumb's age can't be stretched that much, I think. I am already a bit uncomfortable with making him more than a little over 70.

I am guessing the Harroways entered the War vs. the Faith on the side of the Faith after Maegor executed Alys Harroway. We don't know that Alys Harroway was Maegor's wife nor do we know that he executed her, but she was with him very early in his reign and we know he executed many of his wives. Losing Harrenhal after the end of the war, or during, seems reasonable.

I have been working on the Harrenhal timelines quite a bit lately. The Whents are really tricky to figure out. It appears that at least one character has given us false information.

[Don Roberto]

I have been working on the Harrenhal timelines quite a bit lately. The Whents are really tricky to figure out. It appears that at least one character has given us false information.

Which character would that be, out of curiosity?

[History of Westeros]

Which character would that be, out of curiosity?

Gendry tells Arya that Ben Blackthumb served Lady Whent, *her father*, his father and the last Lord Lothston. That makes Lady Whent a Whent by birth.

However, Barristan Selmy recalls that Oswell Whent's brother was Lord Whent at the same time. So Lady Whent's husband is also a Whent by birth. While this is possible, it's extremely unlikely. Cousin marriages can happen, and there are several examples of such. But the Whents only had Harrenhal for around ~60 years... it's hard for a cadet branch to emerge and then re-marry into the main branch in such a short time.

It's possible there was a cadet Whent branch existing prior to Lady Whent's side ascending to the Lordship of Harrenhal. It's also possible Gendry misspoke, or that Barristan remembers Oswell as a brother when in fact he was a cousin or nephew.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I always think Orys' mother "marked" him with magic; showing everyone who he is, where he belong to and come from. :dunno:

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

Gendry tells Arya that Ben Blackthumb served Lady Whent, *her father*, his father and the last Lord Lothston. That makes Lady Whent a Whent by birth.

However, Barristan Selmy recalls that Oswell Whent's brother was Lord Whent at the same time. So Lady Whent's husband is also a Whent by birth. While this is possible, it's extremely unlikely. Cousin marriages can happen, and there are several examples of such. But the Whents only had Harrenhal for around ~60 years... it's hard for a cadet branch to emerge and then re-marry into the main branch in such a short time.

It's possible there was a cadet Whent branch existing prior to Lady Whent's side ascending to the Lordship of Harrenhal. It's also possible Gendry misspoke, or that Barristan remembers Oswell as a brother when in fact he was a cousin or nephew.

Are we sure that Lady Whent was wife of that Lord Whent? Couldn't she be a sister, or even a daughter, cousin or aunt?

[History of Westeros]

Are we sure that Lady Whent was wife of that Lord Whent? Couldn't she be a sister, or even a daughter, cousin or aunt?

Lady Whent's father was Lord of Harrenhal, and she was very old when she died, so she can't be that Lord Whent's daughter. Lord Whent was old at that time, so her being an aunt is almost certainly impossible as well. Cousin was already suggested as a possibility, though the Lord would have to be the cousin of the main branch, since *her* father was Lord, not his.

Sister is actually possible, I think. We know that Lord Whent died and one of his sons inherited, but that that son had no heirs other than Shella, who was the last Whent.

[Lord Varys]

On the Whents:

The best way of explaining the Whent thing would be that all male heirs of Lord Whent (brother to Oswell Whent) and perhaps he himself died during the Rebellion. This made Lady Shella Whent the Lady of Harrenhal.

On Harrenhal:

House Qoherys could have simply died out during Aegon's reign. Perhaps the first Lord Qoherys had no children at all, and the Crown decided to give Harrenhal to House Towers. They may have lost it during the Faith Militant Uprising The Harroways seem to have been a prominent noble house of the Riverlands due to the fact that there is still Lord Harroway's Town in the Riverlands. Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway - if she was one of his wives - may be connected to the fact that her family eventually got Harrenhal.

We have to keep in mind that we have yet no clue whether the page from the Worldbook depicting the outbreak of the Faith Militant Uprising happened early in Maegor's reign. It may be the case, especially since a very old Visenya was still alive and pulling the strings, but the whole incident has nothing to do with Maegor's coronation but with his recovery from a severe illness/accident/assassination attempt, but it has yet to be confirmed if this happened in the beginning of Maegor's rule.

We do know that Maegor executed some of his wives, but not all of them. Alys and this Pentoshi sorcerer woman could have been among the wives who stayed with him until the very end. I'd not surprised if Maegor did have one or two queens he actually loved. If that's the case, House Harroway could have lost Harrenhal when Jaehaerys took the Iron Throne.

Since the stuff about Rhaenyra Targaryen and Lord Lyonel Strong was changed, it's possible that the Strongs lost Harrenhal not during the Dance.

As to the Blackfyre Rebellions:

My guess is that most of those events took place during the reign of Aerys I. Bittersteel and Bloodraven hated each other. Maekar most likely gave also some inducement - to get rid of the last son of Daeron Falseborn or something like that - but things should have cooled down considerably during his reign (or as soon as Bloodraven no longer served as Hand).

[History of Westeros]

On the Whents:

The best way of explaining the Whent thing would be that all male heirs of Lord Whent (brother to Oswell Whent) and perhaps he himself died during the Rebellion. This made Lady Shella Whent the Lady of Harrenhal.

As I explained, that still leaves us with at least one contradiction. Re-read the quote by Gendry, it indicates Shella was a Whent by *birth*. Do you not find it peculiar that the books seem to indicate two blood-Whents were married?

On Harrenhal:

House Qoherys could have simply died out during Aegon's reign. Perhaps the first Lord Qoherys had no children at all, and the Crown decided to give Harrenhal to House Towers. They may have lost it during the Faith Militant Uprising.

I have similar suspicions. I expect House Qoherys never "got off the ground" so to speak, though I think we need to leave room for mysterious/odd deaths to fuel the curse rumors. I attribute the largest share (perhaps the majority) of the "curserumoring" to the Lothstons, but the Qoherys sigil is so ominous and dark I'd guess there's a very good chance a Qoherys (or two) met a dark-ish end.

House Towers' sigil clearly refers to the 5 towers of Harrenhal I would think, but they seem to be the hardest to make guesses about.

The Harroways seem to have been a prominent noble house of the Riverlands due to the fact that there is still Lord Harroway's Town in the Riverlands. Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway - if she was one of his wives - may be connected to the fact that her family eventually got Harrenhal.

We have to keep in mind that we have yet no clue whether the page from the Worldbook depicting the outbreak of the Faith Militant Uprising happened early in Maegor's reign. It may be the case, especially since a very old Visenya was still alive and pulling the strings, but the whole incident has nothing to do with Maegor's coronation but with his recovery from a severe illness/accident/assassination attempt, but it has yet to be confirmed if this happened in the beginning of Maegor's rule.

We do know that Maegor executed some of his wives, but not all of them. Alys and this Pentoshi sorcerer woman could have been among the wives who stayed with him until the very end. I'd not surprised if Maegor did have one or two queens he actually loved. If that's the case, House Harroway could have lost Harrenhal when Jaehaerys took the Iron Throne.

I guess I can see the Harroways acquiring Harrenhal after the WatF, but I see a problem. I am doubting Alys Harroway would be high enough rank to marry if she wasn't a scion of an already established major house. As you know, typically Kings and Great Lords etc. marry into power *especially during a war*. This is mitigated by the fact that Maegor was not limited to one wife, to be fair. Like you suggest, Maegor could've genuinely loved her, or as we both postulate... perhaps she wasn't even his wife.

Since the stuff about Rhaenyra Targaryen and Lord Lyonel Strong was changed, it's possible that the Strongs lost Harrenhal not during the Dance.

I don't use the RPG as a source for anything except maybe sigils. :) It's been wrong way too often, and badly wrong in some places (Raymun Redbeard comes to mind). The Dance was extremely bloody and Harrenhal is close to the capital and very likely a huge part of the "action". It's simply the most likely event that might've caused a major house to go extinct, so that's why I favor that guess. But either way you slice it, the Strongs or the Lothstons were the two longest tenured as Lords of Harrenhal. I don't think there's a way around that.

As to the Blackfyre Rebellions:

My guess is that most of those events took place during the reign of Aerys I. Bittersteel and Bloodraven hated each other. Maekar most likely gave also some inducement - to get rid of the last son of Daeron Falseborn or something like that - but things should have cooled down considerably during his reign (or as soon as Bloodraven no longer served as Hand).

I don't disagree with any of this, and in fact I'd say it makes more sense for Daemon's sons to be put forth as contenders when they were in their 20's rather than late in their respective lives.

That said, Bittersteel probably hated Maekar quite a bit as well. He seemed to have plenty of hate to go around, and Maekar obviously played a major role at the Redgrass field. Also he seemed haughty and proud, just the type to look down on legitimized bastards.

I do agree though, that earlier is more likely than later for the BF3 and 4.

[Lord Varys]

On the Harroways:

It's easily possible that the Harroways were already a very wealthy and powerful house before they were given Harrenhal. We know little and less about the Riverlands pre-Conquest, and considering that Harren the Black ruled his kingdom from the mainland, not the Iron Islands, it would not be all that surprising if the Harroways were originally Ironborn who moved permanently to the Riverlands. Or at least a house who grew to wealth and prominence under House Hoare.

My guess is that most of the lords who were given Harrenhal were already wealthy and powerful. The whole Slynt thing seems to be an exception, not the rule. Littlefinger, on the other hand, can afford Harrenhal. He should be one of the wealthiest men in Westeros by now.

[History of Westeros]

I like this possibility. Certainly there *should* be a good bit of Ironborn blood in the Riverlands. The Riverlords may have hated the rule of House Hoare but it appears that they were held rather firmly, which implies intermarrying.

3 generations is a decent length of time to get established. There must be a lot of Ironborn blood in the Riverlands. I suspect the Pipers might have some Ironborn blood. I find it peculiar that Quellon Greyjoy married a Piper. Perhaps we should be keeping our eyes peeled when re-reading descriptions of certain Riverlanders to see if they have traces of Ironborn genetics (black eyes and hair are very common there, for one).

No thoughts on the House Whent conundrum? At this point I think we have to assume Gendry misspoke, but I'm hoping someone figures out something that I missed.

[Don Roberto]

No thoughts on the House Whent conundrum? At this point I think we have to assume Gendry misspoke, but I'm hoping someone figures out something that I missed.

It confuses me somewhat this whole ordeal of Lords and Ladies. If a couple is married, are they both Lord and Lady of their castle at the same time? Lysa is acknowledged Lady of the Vale, but was that so before Jon Arryn's death? Is there any precedent of this in the series?

Assuming there is not, couldn't Oswell Whent's brother have been Lady Whent's father, instead of her husband? Taking the Frey family tree as a parameter, it wouldn't be impossible for Lord Whent to have a much younger brother in Oswell, as young (or close so) as his own daughter. This way, the first Lord Whent had two sons (one being Oswell, the other the second Lord Whent), the second Lord Whent being the one to organize the tourney of Harrenhal, dieing shortly after and leaving the household to his daughter Shella, who becomes Lady Whent.

Unless there's a mistake I'm not seeing, this would validate both Gendry's and Barristan's statements.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure where the conundrum is. Lady Whent was a Whent by birth, not by marriage, that much seems to be the case. As a born Whent she would have come very late/last in the line of succession. Oswell Whent's brother - the Lord Whent who hosted the Tourney of Harrenhal - could have been her brother, too. It has never been said that Lady Whent's husband was a born Whent as well, has it?

Shella Whent would have become the Lady of Harrenhal only very late in her life, after her brother, the Lord of Harrenhal during the time of Aerys, his children, and all her elder siblings died. It was never stated that Shella Whent was the daughter of Oswell Whent's brother, the Lord Whent of Harrenhal.

In fact, Shella could have been the aunt of Oswell Whent and his brother if she really died of old age. She could have been the last surviving member of House Whent from an elder branch of House Whent. Minisa Whent Tullys elder sister, for example.

That way, the stuff about Ben Blackthumb could still make sense, if both her father and grandfather were Lords of Harrenhal for a very short period of time. If the Whents are a cadet branch of House Lothston (and the bat arms seem to indicate as much), Shella's grandfather could have been already very old when Harrenhal was given to him.

[protar]

On the Harroways:

It's easily possible that the Harroways were already a very wealthy and powerful house before they were given Harrenhal. We know little and less about the Riverlands pre-Conquest, and considering that Harren the Black ruled his kingdom from the mainland, not the Iron Islands, it would not be all that surprising if the Harroways were originally Ironborn who moved permanently to the Riverlands. Or at least a house who grew to wealth and prominence under House Hoare.

My guess is that most of the lords who were given Harrenhal were already wealthy and powerful. The whole Slynt thing seems to be an exception, not the rule. Littlefinger, on the other hand, can afford Harrenhal. He should be one of the wealthiest men in Westeros by now.

I tend to think that house Harroway was deliberately set up to rule Harrenhal, mainly because of the name. It seems weird to me that a house with the Harr prefix would just happen to exist prior to ruling Harrenhal. Although a house connected with Harren would also cut it I suppose.

My theory is that after a couple houses died holding Harrenhal in quick sucession people started to get suspicious and tried giving it to a house specifically raised up to take the blow.

[Lord Varys]

The thing with the Riverlords is that as of yet they seem to the ones which change on a much more regular basis then the Lords of the other regions. The only other kingdom similar in that fashion to the Riverlands seems to the Reach (where at least the Manderlys, Osgreys, and Florents fell from grace during the centuries).

But the Riverlands has had a family like the Butterwells who rose from nothing to the peak of the Realm only to disappear once again. And since the Riverlands were ruled by outsiders for centuries - first the Stormkings, then the Ironborn - I'm quite sure that at least some of the prominent Riverlords from various ages don't have their roots in the Riverlands but on the Iron Islands and the Stormlands (just as the Lords on the Western Shore of the West and the Reach could be related to the Ironborn).

I'd not be surprised at all if the Freys were originally not from the Riverlands as well.

The three houses in the Riverlands which have been there for centuries seem to be the Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Mallisters. The Tullys may be as old as the Mallisters, but they apparently were not that wealthy before Aegon raised them up.

I'd be surprised if the Darrys, Mootons, Pipers, and others would be as old as the Bracken/Blackwoods.

[protar]

My current theories on the Harrenhal Houses:

House Qoherys: According to the wiki it was founded by a battle companion of Aegon. From the name we can take it that he was valyrian (Perhaps Qohor from the Qoh prefix?) and from his sigil (the skulls of Harren and his sons) we can take it this was not a house prior to Aegon's conquest. I'm guessing they ruled Harrenhal for the entirety of Aegon's reign before being wiped out during the Faith Militant Uprising.

House Towers: As with House Qoherys we can surmise from the sigil and name that it was created for the explicit purpose of ruling Harrenhal. Just throwing this out there, could the Faith Militant have taken control of Harrenhal and named one of their knights as Lord? Aenys would have been weak enough to let this happen, but Maegor would quickly have crushed them.

House Harroway: The sigil and the Harr prefix again suggest some direct connection to Harrenhal however that does not necessarily indicate it was specifically raised up to rule the castle. Possibly House Harroway was formed after Aegon's Conquest. Harroway's Town (on the way to Harrenhal hence the name) may have been founded before the Harroways took charge of Harrenhal, I'm thinking by rich merchants. I'm unsure how the Harroways would be wiped out. Possibly in the Faith Uprising again, or possibly the riverlords rebelled at having some upjumped merchants in charge of Harrenhal.

House Strong: From their simplistic name we can infer they were a First Men house, old and powerful - the perfect counter to the low born Harroways (assuming I'm right.). We know Rhaenyra Targaryen had Lyonel Strong has one of her consorts, which may have played a part in being chosen. It's easy to guess that they were wiped out during the DWD when they sided with Rhaenyra.

House Lothston: No evidence for this but my pet theory has always been that they were an offshoot branch of the Targaryens. It would at least explain their propensity for madness and sorcery. Whether they were or weren't they were a house known for causing trouble and by this time people would have caught on about the curse. So they name the Lothstons to Harrenhal in an attempt to get rid of them. We know roughly when they were wiped out and the Last Lothston may have been the rebel lord who killed Maekar Targaryen.

House Whent: Obviously from their sigil it seems they were originally a cadet branch of House Lothston, distant cousins to escape the curse originally. If my idea about Lothston being targ relatives is true this also means that the Stark kids can distantly trace their lineage back to the Targaryens.