Why do people say Doran is a good player?

[Jon of the Dead]

I'm sorry, but can somebody explain to me why Doran is a good plotter? I'm genuinely asking because I keep seeing people referring to him as a master player, and I wonder if I missed some hint of his schemes.

So far, the only plans I know of him was marrying Arianne to Viserys, which failed epically because he didn't contacted Dany and Viserys sooner when they were roaming around Essos, and then sending Quentyn to marry Dany, which also failed epically because Quentyn was so green he pissed grass.

Is there some secret scheme he is planning with Darkstar or something?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's a very brief but nonetheless compelling bit of foreshadowing that he's aware that Aegon is a Blackfyre. When he talks to Arianne about the plot, he's examining an onyx dragon cyvasse piece. A black dragon. There's also an idea that he's sending Arianne to meet with Aegon as a "test," to see if she can figure out who he really is. I'm also keen on the idea that Lemore is a Dornish plant in that operation, and that Taena is Doran's spy in the capital.

To put it another way: We're not privy to what's going on in Doran's mind. There's something he knows or something he's planning that, if we knew what it was, would give too much away. Same with Varys and Littlefinger. So something substantial is going on there.

[Light a wight tonight]

The opposite seems the case to me. I've never seen an explanation that was adequate. Mostly "he had these great plans but they never worked out because someone else screwed up". A good planner wouldn't send a screwup in the first place.

[Jon of the Dead]

There's a very brief but nonetheless compelling bit of foreshadowing that he's aware that Aegon is a Blackfyre. When he talks to Arianne about the plot, he's examining an onyx dragon cyvasse piece. A black dragon. There's also an idea that he's sending Arianne to meet with Aegon as a "test," to see if she can figure out who he really is. I'm also keen on the idea that Lemore is a Dornish plant in that operation, and that Taena is Doran's spy in the capital.

Ok, that's interesting, especially the onyx dragon part. But there's no solid evidence on the rest, right?

[Zell Holland]

Maybe he's not an amazing player in the league of Varys or Littlefinger but more it's unexpected that he actually has plans when everyone thinks him to be incredibly meek. Which is partly why I found his "Fire and blood" speech to be so awesome. But he has had success of sorts in not managing to get Dorne properly sucked into the dynastic war as of yet. But I do think Doran Martell has other plans up his sleeves, his character doesn't seem like the sort of person who puts too much risk into one plan.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ok, that's interesting, especially the onyx dragon part. But there's no solid evidence on the rest, right?

There's no "solid evidence" for a lot of things. But Doran obviously has spies close to Cersei (remember that he knew about the plot to kill Trystane) and Taena's obviously working for someone. And Lemore, even if she isn't Ashara, is obviously not just a septa.

[Jon of the Dead]

Yes, I'm hoping he has other plans and other spies, but what I meant is that his plans so far, like Arianne/Viserys and Quentyn/Dany have failed (apparently).

So, yes, I guess we all hope he has something else up his sleeve for the sake of the story, and certainly there are some interesting possibilities and lots of potential for a super scheme (my personal theory is that Darkstar was working for him and he was the one who revealed Arianne's plans). But from what we've seen so far his credentials are not exactly great, in my opinion.

[Drexyon7]

In my opinion he was severely over looked and then severely overrated.

When we are 1st introduced to Doran he doesn't seem like much of anything. An absentee prince, a cripple, not a real threat to anyone at this point in time.

Now remember we're getting used to GRRM's twists by now, so when he makes his "Fire and Blood" speech we are lead to the conclusion that this guy is some super schemer who has been plotting his revenge.

I believe the reality is somewhere in the middle. He is a player but he got way over-hyped. I do think Dorne will be the fall of some of the remaining Lannisters and there forces though. (sorry Tommen and Myrcella :frown5: )

[lorddemon]

He's too cautious to be in the same league as Varys or Littlefinger.

[Morienthar]

His advantage is being an unlooked for player.

Everyone knows to be vary of Varys and LF but this cripple from the other end of realm has more or less slipped everyone's mind and I think he's using that to his advantage.

His pawn's on the other hand are not particularly good.

[Jon of the Dead]

In my opinion he was severely over looked and then severely overrated.

When we are 1st introduced to Doran he doesn't seem like much of anything. An absentee prince, a cripple, not a real threat to anyone at this point in time.

Now remember we're getting used to GRRM's twists by now, so when he makes his "Fire and Blood" speech we are lead to the conclusion that this guy is some super schemer who has been plotting his revenge.

I believe the reality is somewhere in the middle. He is a player but he got way over-hyped. I do think Dorne will be the fall of some of the remaining Lannisters and there forces though. (sorry Tommen and Myrcella :frown5: )

Yes, I think his "Fire and Blood" speech was incredibly powerful, and it left me hyped for some revenge. I was expecting something awesome in aDwD from that speech. But then all he did was send Quentyn to a mission that was borderline impossible for a dashing warrior, let alone Quentyn, of all people.

Again, we still don't know if that was just Phase 1 of his masterplan, but it doesn't strike me as a good move.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He's too cautious to be in the same league as Varys or Littlefinger.

Being cautious is not the same as not being good. On the contrary, I think it's very possible to not be cautious enough and to overreach, which I expect to eventually happen to Baelish. While it's true that the Quentyn scheme didn't work out (in large part because of forces Doran couldn't have foreseen or controlled, like her already being betrothed), the Arianne-Aegon alliance looks fairly promising, and Dorne, by staying out of the war up to this point, has its entire military force intact, while most other major regions are in tatters. They also still have Myrcella as a hostage.

[Mad Monkey]

Doran is the ice to Oberyn's fire. I feel like together, they would be a formidable team since of them is impulsive to the point of suicidal while the other one is so cautious that it approaches torpor. It's when they are separated that their deficiencies become highlighted; Doran's plans have been so slow to unfold that almost all of his enemies have died of unrelated causes, and Oberyn when left on his own practically feeds himself to giant monster men for no good reason.

[Flig]

His advantage is being an unlooked for player.

Everyone knows to be vary of Varys and LF but this cripple from the other end of realm has more or less slipped everyone's mind and I think he's using that to his advantage.

His pawn's on the other hand are not particularly good.

Something to remember: While readers all know of LF's dastardlyness, most people in Westeros don't consider him a threat. He glides under the radar of most people, but still gets shit done.

Doran, as much as I love the guy, had been plotting Tywin's downfall for over 15 years, and accomplished nothing.

I'm all for playing the long-game, but Doran overdoes it.

[Jon of the Dead]

Something to remember: While readers all know of LF's dastardlyness, most people in Westeros don't consider him a threat. He glides under the radar of most people, but still gets shit done.

Doran, as much as I love the guy, had been plotting Tywin's downfall for over 15 years, and accomplished nothing.

I'm all for playing the long-game, but Doran overdoes it.

:agree:

So far Martin's done a lot of telling with Doran, but not a lot of showing. I still don't see why we should think he is such a good player.

He is like Darkstar, but without the one-liners

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

The more I reread, the more I appreciate the cautious characters like Doran and Sansa. Doran is still alive, unlike Robert, Ned, Tywin, Renly and Robb.

The big factor for me is that GRRM couldn't have possibly decided to devote all this time to the Dornish in AFFC and ADWD for no reason. The story is going somewhere. It drives me nuts when people whine about how pointless Dorne is.

ETA: I'm not claiming the OP is whining, I meant some if the people who hate AFFC.

[Petyr Patter]

Calling Doran a "master" is definitely an overstatement, but from what I can tell, he's better than some posters who dismiss him out right.

1. First off, realize he's not just playing the game of thrones, he's playing the game of "revenge." He doesn't want to "win" anything, he wants to destroy Tywin, his henchmen, and to a lesser degree Robert Baratheon for the murder of his sister, niece, and nephew.
   
2. He knows when not to act. This has to be the first rule of being a master player. Listening to the Sand Snake revenge plans is like watching a Saturday Night Live skit of "idiots with ideas." Let's sack Old Town, let's march on King's Landing, we just need to kill 4 people NOT responsible for our father's death. If the Game of Thrones must be played to be won, then there is a lot of value in caution over boldness. Its better to not play than to play and lose.
   
3. His plans are incredibly ambitious. He doesn't want Tywin dead, he wants the entire Lannister House "disinherited." No Lannister children on the throne, and no Lannisters holding Casterly Rock. Then he wanted to kill Tywin. Unfortunately, where is he going to find allies for such an endeavor? House Baratheon had effectively allied with the Stormlands, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the North. What is left is the completely unreliable Iron Islands, the traditional antagonist the Reach, and the Crownlands. Ah, but only the North and the Westerlands were united in supporting Robert, the remaining regions had numerous houses, some powerful, that sided with the Targaryan regime. Find the lost Targaryen heir, and this might be enough to get the Reach on the same side as the Dorne, along with much of the Crownlands. Now, victory seems plausible. Get the timing right, say when Robert manages to alienate one of his allies (conflict is bound to happen sooner or later), and hello new Targaryen and Dornish dynasty which invades and lays siege to Casterly Rock.
   
4. It is also worth mentioning, that no Dornishmen died in the War of Robert's Succession until Oberon put himself in harm's way and let his emotions get the better of prudence. Think about that. How many Lannisters died keeping Joffrey on the throne? And Joffrey goes and gets poisoned, and things aren't looking good for Tommen right now, what with his wife and mother both on trial for treason, two Targaryen pretenders buildings the forces to take Westeros. In the interim, he got a royal marriage for his third heir.
   
5. While its unclear who his informants are, he successfully interdicted Arianne's plans to "crown" Myrcella, and to attack and kill Trystane. That has to be worth something.
   

[Drexyon7]

The more I reread, the more I appreciate the cautious characters like Doran and Sansa. Doran is still alive, unlike Robert, Ned, Tywin, Renly and Robb.

The big factor for me is that GRRM couldn't have possibly decided to devote all this time to the Dornish in AFFC and ADWD for no reason. The story is going somewhere. It drives me nuts when people whine about how pointless Dorne is.

ETA: I'm not claiming the OP is whining, I meant some if the people who hate AFFC.

Letting the bloodthirsty Sand Snakes loose is about to move the Dornish story along. I'm convinced one of them will off Tommen and maybe a couple other big names. All you have to do is remember how freaked out Doran's maester was about Tyene hugging him to know the Snakes are gonna cause a huge ruckus in KL

[Jon Wolfwalker]

He is a ruler in the game.

He is still alive, even with the loss of his family. Hotah is his game changer.

[Max Berg]

I'm sorry, but can somebody explain to me why Doran is a good plotter? I'm genuinely asking because I keep seeing people referring to him as a master player, and I wonder if I missed some hint of his schemes.

So far, the only plans I know of him was marrying Arianne to Viserys, which failed epically because he didn't contacted Dany and Viserys sooner when they were roaming around Essos, and then sending Quentyn to marry Dany, which also failed epically because Quentyn was so green he pissed grass.

Is there some secret scheme he is planning with Darkstar or something?

He did not put his money only on a single stack, but rather he developed several plans in parallel and he is pursuing those plans since a very long time.