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Crackpot: Tommen's gold shroud = Baratheon wedding cloak


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#1 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:59 PM

Hello everyone. It is my crackpot time. While reading the books, one character grew so much to my heart that I can’t stand when people say that he will eventually die. I am talking about Tommen. This sweet boy King with desire to outlaw the beets and heart as big as Joffrey’s ego has been basically sentenced to death by the prophecy his mother heard when she was a child by Maggy the Frog:

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”
That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she’d cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.
The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

(Cersei VIII, AFfC)


That Maggy’s prophecy has partially come to truth, there is no doubt. Robert had so many bastards, while Cersei got three children out of her incestuous relationship with Jaime. At this moment, two of those children – first Joffrey and now Tommen have been crowned Kings, and one of them, Joffrey, died. At the end, the most common interpretation is that Cersei will live up to see all her children’s deaths.

And this is where this theory, crackpot as it is, enters. My idea is that Tommen won’t die before Cersei. Maggy the Frog said nothing explicitly about children’s death. She was talking about golden shrouds. The adjective shrouded derived from the word shroud has been mentioned throughout the series, having various meanings:


The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.

(Sansa II, AGoT)



Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. “Send his armor home to the Vale. The mother will want to have it.”

(Eddard VII, AGoT)


She opened her eyes and stared up blind at the black that shrouded her, her dream already fading.

(The Blind Girl, ADwD)


Linguistic morphology has indeed taught us that derived words can have another meaning from their original. Shrouded is used as synonym for covered, or cloaked. And given that both cloak and shroud are pieces of cloth, I am interested in that meaning. For this theory supposes that Tommen’s golden shroud is nothing more than his Baratheon wedding cloak, he had at his wedding with Margaery:

When it was time for the changing of the cloaks, the bride sank gracefully to her knees and Tommen covered her with the heavy cloth-of-gold monstrosity that Robert had cloaked Cersei in on their own wedding day, with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon its back in beads of onyx. Cersei had wanted to use the fine red silk cloak Joffrey had used.

(Cersei III, AFfC)


Unlike Joffrey who had Lannister read as his wedding cloak, Tommen got the Baratheon golden one. It was his cloak as the prophecy says “gold (shall be) their shrouds” Could we interpret that Tommen already got his “shroud” in form of his golden wedding cloak?

I am not sure whether anyone has thought of this, but I wasn’t been able to find it. As all relatively good crackpot theories, this one is also not built on some great textual proofs, and I will be the first one to admit that theory has the holes, but, heck, if that is what it needs for Tommen to survive, let it be… /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#2 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:17 PM

Are you suggesting that Tommen will not die? That the word shroud, which in all of the quoted text above signifies death or misery somehow, to say that in Tommen's case misery was well, just wedding is very inappropriate.

Also, what plot purpose would Tommen living on serve? Can you build more along this? Until then this pot didn't crack for me Mladen, sorry. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

Edited by Arya kiddin', 20 September 2013 - 01:19 PM.


#3 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:25 PM

Are you suggesting that Tommen will not die? That the word shroud, which in all of the quoted text above signifies death or misery somehow, to say that in Tommen's case misery was well, just wedding is very inappropriate.


The word shrouded in those cases is also used as cloaked. That is where the equality of cloak and shroud came from. It means that Tommen already got his shroud, and that Maggy's prophecy regarding him has been fulfilled.

Also, what plot purpose would Tommen living on serve? Can you build more along this? Until then this pot didn't crack for me Mladen, sorry. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />


Well, we have enough to suspect that Cersei will meet her end soon. That leaves Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion will fight for Casterly Rock, but at the end, due to his inability to produce an heir (all those years with whores and no bastards), Tommen would become his heir. Something like Dance of dragons, when Aegon III, nephew of Aegon II inherited the Throne. Only, this would be Lion edition /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

P.S. No need for apologies... I am just having fun in finding ways for sweet boy to survive...

Edited by Mladen, 20 September 2013 - 01:25 PM.


#4 Little Balerion

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

Shroud -> burial cloth

And the gold and black wedding cloak is something Tommen puts on Margaery. I don't think he gets covered by that cloak. So not buying it.

#5 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:29 PM

And the gold and black wedding cloak is something Tommen puts on Margaery. I don't think he gets covered by that cloak. So not buying it.


He doesn't. But also, Maggy said only "gold shall be their shrouds", not that they will be covered by one...

#6 LadyClaudys

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:30 PM

well, I certainly hope you are right (another Tommen lover in here /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> ) but chances for that are very small. Myrcella still may live but I am afraid poor Tommen is pretty much dead already. I think his death serves more to the development of the plot than his survival. First of all, his death can bring Cersei´s madnnes to the highest level and as well bring Jaime to fulfill the valonqar prophecy. If he lives, he can only serve as a heir to casterly rock - i highly doubt Tyrion will have children of his own, and even if Jaime survives untill the end (most probably not) i doubt he will have kids with brienne.

#7 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

As you said, crackpot.

Every passage you quoted refers to death, violence or hidden danger. Connecting that to the joy and live a wedding is (should be), that's a stretch. Especially as Margaery is the one cloaked here.

Furthermore, Tommen has pretty much no chance to survive. If somebody else takes the Iron Throne, he'll have to have him killed. If the Iron Throne ceases to exist, he's dead as well. For good or ill, the poor lad has his fortune welded to that ugly chair, but he's damn unlikely to keep it.

#8 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:32 PM

well, I certainly hope you are right (another Tommen lover in here /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> ) but chances for that are very small. Myrcella still may live but I am afraid poor Tommen is pretty much dead already. I think his death serves more to the development of the plot than his survival. First of all, his death can bring Cersei´s madnnes to the highest level and as well bring Jaime to fulfill the valonqar prophecy. If he lives, he can only serve as a heir to casterly rock - i highly doubt Tyrion will have children of his own, and even if Jaime survives untill the end (most probably not) i doubt he will have kids with brienne.


Welcome LacyClaudys to the forum... /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' /> . May you have great time here...

Yes, I know, chances are small, and this is just a crackpot of Tommen lover /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />... I don't want to see kids dying, that's all...

Edited by Mladen, 20 September 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#9 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:37 PM

The word shrouded in those cases is also used as cloaked. That is where the equality of cloak and shroud came from. It means that Tommen already got his shroud, and that Maggy's prophecy regarding him has been fulfilled.



Well, we have enough to suspect that Cersei will meet her end soon. That leaves Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion will fight for Casterly Rock, but at the end, due to his inability to produce an heir (all those years with whores and no bastards), Tommen would become his heir. Something like Dance of dragons, when Aegon III, nephew of Aegon II inherited the Throne. Only, this would be Lion edition /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

P.S. No need for apologies... I am just having fun in finding ways for sweet boy to survive...


The thing is, Joffrey died, Myrcella will likely die or has been killed by He-who-is-of-the-night(no proofs, just speculation), then only Tommen surviving would break the rhythm. The prophecy meaning death for two people, while meaning only a literal shroud to the other, is not something I can see happening.

The Tyrion argument you present is feasible actually, but not likely. The Lannisters is a line I don't see ending when the series ends, but it will survive through Tyrion. Tyrion lies with whores, who know the when and how of moon-tea. We do not know for certainty that he can't get a child on someone. On the contrary, he quite confidently asserts to Tywin that he is fully capable of getting Sansa with child (Might've been empty talk, but I believe otherwise).

No one wants that sweet boy to die, but the chances are slim. /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' />

(You should petition to Bloodraven that Balerion the Cat should save him perchance some ill befalls this child /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' /> )

#10 LadyClaudys

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

Furthermore, Tommen has pretty much no chance to survive. If somebody else takes the Iron Throne, he'll have to have him killed. If the Iron Throne ceases to exist, he's dead as well. For good or ill, the poor lad has his fortune welded to that ugly chair, but he's damn unlikely to keep it.


well, my thoughts are if Dany takes the throne with Tyrion by her side, Tommen will survive. She is not the type to kill 8 year old kid, no matter who his parents are, and i believe Tyrion will do everything to protect him - after all, he is very fond of myrcella and tommen. On the other side, if Aegon and Connington get there first, boy is doomed for good. Margarey and Tyrells will not move their finger to save him, Cersei will not be able to protect him, Jaime is far away....that boy has no one on his side and he is dead. Arianne may try to save him but I doubt she would risk anything for a Lannister boy.

@Mladen - thank you /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#11 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

As you said, crackpot.

Every passage you quoted refers to death, violence or hidden danger. Connecting that to the joy and live a wedding is (should be), that's a stretch. Especially as Margaery is the one cloaked here.


Yes, it is crackpot... I usually don't theorize a lot, but this seemed like we would have some fun...

Since when the weddings in ASOIAF are symbol of joy... Death and weddings have been so tightly connected that shroud=wedding cloak actually makes sense...

Furthermore, Tommen has pretty much no chance to survive. If somebody else takes the Iron Throne, he'll have to have him killed. If the Iron Throne ceases to exist, he's dead as well. For good or ill, the poor lad has his fortune welded to that ugly chair, but he's damn unlikely to keep it.


Doesn't have to be. We might see Aegon taking the Throne, and Cersei running away with Tommen to Casterly Rock...

The Tyrion argument you present is feasible actually, but not likely. The Lannisters is a line I don't see ending when the series ends, but it will survive through Tyrion. Tyrion lies with whores, who know the when and how of moon-tea. We do not know for certainty that he can't get a child on someone. On the contrary, he quite confidently asserts to Tywin that he is fully capable of getting Sansa with child (Might've been empty talk, but I believe otherwise).


Well, we know that Brandon Stark had bastards, we know all of Robert's bastards, and somehow Tyrion got none. Yes, it is possible, but also we should consider the fact that he is infertile... Such model of prowess in battle and shooting blanks /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />... As I said, here nothing is certain, I just allowed my love for sweet chubby kids lead me through mysterious waters of crackpottism /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

(You should petition to Bloodraven that Balerion the Cat should save him perchance some ill befalls this child /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' /> )


If I add Balerion and Ser Pounce here, everything would be possible /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#12 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

I am just having fun in finding ways for sweet boy to survive...

I usually don't theorize a lot, but this seemed like we would have some fun...


That's twice you did that. You do it once more, punctuation or no, and the corn code will be invoked and the poor boy will die /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Yes I actually did that.

#13 juanml82

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

I think the biggest hole is the fact that several other people will sit in the Iron Throne before the end. Of course, instead of killing Tommen they might force him to take the Black but, given how merciful Westerosi warlords are turning regarding their enemies, I don't think many would care enough to dispatch a ship with Tommen and a heavy escort to Eastwatch.

Now, of course Tommen and Myrcella will die eventually and the Cersei tears of the prophecy might not be caused by their premature death, but it looks far fetched.
OTOH, an easy to interpret prophecy without twists isn't fun, so maybe there is something unexpected in Cersei's (and Tommen's) future.

#14 King of Winters

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:05 PM

It's a nice thought (even though I've heard you say it over and over again /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />) but I don't see Cersei drowning in her tears unless both Tommen and Myrcella die.

Edited by King of the Starks, 20 September 2013 - 02:05 PM.


#15 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:05 PM

That's twice you did that. You do it once more, punctuation or no, and the corn code will be invoked and the poor boy will die /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Yes I actually did that.


/lmao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lmao:' /> /lmao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lmao:' /> /lmao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lmao:' /> ... I am still trying(almost give up) to figure what the hell Corn code is, but in the meantime let we have some... joy in crackpot theories...


Sorry, no Corn code...

well, my thoughts are if Dany takes the throne with Tyrion by her side, Tommen will survive. She is not the type to kill 8 year old kid, no matter who his parents are, and i believe Tyrion will do everything to protect him - after all, he is very fond of myrcella and tommen. On the other side, if Aegon and Connington get there first, boy is doomed for good. Margarey and Tyrells will not move their finger to save him, Cersei will not be able to protect him, Jaime is far away....that boy has no one on his side and he is dead. Arianne may try to save him but I doubt she would risk anything for a Lannister boy.

@Mladen - thank you /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />


You welcome...

I am not so certain that Tyrells would betray Tommen so easily. I mean, Aegon will most likely marry Arianne, closing the doors for Tyrells. They also have the highest positions in the court, so all in all, they could only loose by siding with Aegon.

#16 Mladen

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:08 PM

It's a nice thought (even though I've heard you say it over and over again /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />) but I don't see Cersei drowning in her tears unless both Tommen and Myrcella die.


Ah, you sweet summer, forever young child... I thought I might turn it into a thread... Well, Cersei might drown in her tears if Joffrey and Myrcella are dead, Tommen taken from her... And Jaime rejects her... Catelyn Stark gone mad because she thought all her children are dead, and we know 4 of them are alive...

#17 King Robert's Warhammer

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:13 PM

Tommen is gonna be eaten by a Wighted Ser Pounce.

#18 King of Winters

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

Ah, you sweet summer, forever young child... I thought I might turn it into a thread... Well, Cersei might drown in her tears if Joffrey and Myrcella are dead, Tommen taken from her... And Jaime rejects her... Catelyn Stark gone mad because she thought all her children are dead, and we know 4 of them are alive...

Cat thought her children were dead but Cersei would know at least one of her children is alive.



#19 LittleDragon8

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:16 PM

I like it, and I very much want it to be true! Following your line of though, will we see Myrcella married as well if we go along with the interpretation of the wedding cloak as a shroud?

#20 Maxpey

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:24 PM

Hello everyone. It is my crackpot time. While reading the books, one character grew so much to my heart that I can’t stand when people say that he will eventually die. I am talking about Tommen. This sweet boy King with desire to outlaw the beets and heart as big as Joffrey’s ego has been basically sentenced to death by the prophecy his mother heard when she was a child by Maggy the Frog:



That Maggy’s prophecy has partially come to truth, there is no doubt. Robert had so many bastards, while Cersei got three children out of her incestuous relationship with Jaime. At this moment, two of those children – first Joffrey and now Tommen have been crowned Kings, and one of them, Joffrey, died. At the end, the most common interpretation is that Cersei will live up to see all her children’s deaths.

And this is where this theory, crackpot as it is, enters. My idea is that Tommen won’t die before Cersei. Maggy the Frog said nothing explicitly about children’s death. She was talking about golden shrouds. The adjective shrouded derived from the word shroud has been mentioned throughout the series, having various meanings:








Linguistic morphology has indeed taught us that derived words can have another meaning from their original. Shrouded is used as synonym for covered, or cloaked. And given that both cloak and shroud are pieces of cloth, I am interested in that meaning. For this theory supposes that Tommen’s golden shroud is nothing more than his Baratheon wedding cloak, he had at his wedding with Margaery:



Unlike Joffrey who had Lannister read as his wedding cloak, Tommen got the Baratheon golden one. It was his cloak as the prophecy says “gold (shall be) their shrouds” Could we interpret that Tommen already got his “shroud” in form of his golden wedding cloak?

I am not sure whether anyone has thought of this, but I wasn’t been able to find it. As all relatively good crackpot theories, this one is also not built on some great textual proofs, and I will be the first one to admit that theory has the holes, but, heck, if that is what it needs for Tommen to survive, let it be… /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


As a charter member, I would like to formally welcome you to the Land of Crackpottery. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />
Like you, I find Tommen very sympathetic and hope that he is not murdered.
Unfortunately, the word shroud has a specific meaning that we are all too familiar with that just makes too much sense in this context.

If I may add my own piece of crackpottery in an attempt to make both of us feel better, it's not clear from the wording of the prophecy that Cersei will actually be alive when Tommen dies and is covered in his shroud of gold. Maybe Tommen is still alive when Stannis . . . I mean, the Valanquar strangles her. /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />