Lightbringer/Nissa Nissa [Theory]

[House Of Wolves]

Not sure if this has been discussed but this is an idea i have been thinking about regarding lightbringer and nissa nissa. I am convinced that Catelyn Stark is nissa nissa and will be the one Jon Snow (AAR) sacrifices in order to bring forth lightbringer.

Now We all know the story of lightbringer. Azor Ahai forges a sword that he drives into his wife Nissa Nissas chest , her soul combines with the steel of the sword, creating lightbringer.

I think most people when thinking about lightbringer focus to much on the power of the sword that Azor Ahai forges and don't see that the power of lightbringer didnt come from the sword but it is a power that was within nissa nissa. The sword itself only needed to be able to withstand the power of the light inside of nissa nissa. The power of lightbringer comes from nissa nissa and the one who is able to capture that power is Azor Ahai

So why do i think that Catelyn is Nissa Nissa? Well we have already seen the power of lightbringer (nissa nissa) when Beric uses a flaming sword. The power of nissa nissa started with Thoros then was passed to Beric who passed it to Catelyn.

Thoros is a changed man, no longer a fat priest with a fake flaming sword, saying, "I am not the false priest you knew. The Lord of Light has woken in my soul. Many powers long asleep are waking and there are forces moving in the land."

The light/powers in his soul Thoros is talking about is the light/power of lightbringer and he passed this onto Beric when he resurrected him.

Thoros says a prayer to R'hllor, and then Dondarrion cuts open his palm with his sword, causing the blade to take fire.

This is the exact thing described in the creation of lightbringer. Nissa Nissas blood was what created the flames of lightbringer. Berics version is just a weaker/incomplete version then the the real lightbringer because his sacrifice wasn't significant enough. Beric then passes this power onto Catelyn when he gives his own life in order to resurrect her as Thoros did for him.

So now do I think just any one can stab Catelyn through the heart and get lightbringer? No I think there are certain circumstances of who can bring forth lightbringer. Most people think that Azor Ahai and Nissa need to be in love but i don't think these are the terms needed for the sacrifice of lightbringer. At this point it would only be speculation as to what is needed for the sacrifice .We do know Jon and Cat both have unbelievably strong emotions towards one another. It could also be nissa nissa just has to give here life willingly or the people them selves could be whats important. Again what ever it is its just speculation. There are many and more scenarios in which i could see happening when Jon and Cat create lightbringer.

This is another idea i thought of when thinking about this theory. Melisandre and her visions of a dragon waking from stone and its importance towards Azor Ahai.

Dragon= Jon Waking= lightbringer stone= lady stoneheart

Not sure if I am just trying to stretch things but If You try to see what she might have seen A dragon breaking through stone unleashing a bunch of fire , then its not to much of a stretch. People are often seen in such ways in the flames. Just one example of this is marquo seeing eruon as a one eyed kraken. So I think its is possible Jon could be seen as a dragon and catelyns heart would be shown as stone/ i mean she is called stoneheart after all . Jon (the dragon) stabs catelyns heart (stone) waking lightingbringer. This shouldn't be seen as evidence towards my original theory but i just thought it was an interesting idea.

Just to recap I think Catelyn (Nissa Nissa) is the one with the power of lightbringer and Jon (Azor Aha) Is the one who will claim this power.

Thoughts?

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

Sounds pretty good.

I particulary like

"Dragon= Jon Waking= lightbringer stone= lady stoneheart"

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Nice theory but I disagree.

If Lady Stone heart is killed to support another character I would be disappointed.

[Snowisnobastard]

I have actually proposed this theory in a few comments on some random threads as well and it has been overlooked or ridiculed. That being said it is quite possible my friend.

[Snowisnobastard]

Generally the ones who speak truth are looked upon as illogical fools until the truth is proven. (See all of the known history of our modern society) although we may be wrong ;)

I refuse to stop believing this theory because of the sheer poetics. (Cats hatred for Jon from book one.) it would be so beautiful if she would "sacrifice" herself for the "son" she hated to make him truly realize his purpose.

Go ahead and ridicule me, I can take it.

(Edit) I did not propose the "dragon, stone, and fire" part before and I very much like your take on that part of the prophesy

[Lord A.Reyne]

I think I missed something in the books. Why does everyone assume UnCat wants to help Jon ?

[Snowisnobastard]

I think I missed something in the books. Why does everyone assume UnCat wants to help Jon ?

She thinks he is the only part of Ned left alive that she can reach at this point, if you don't understand that you're in need of a re-read. Although she may have no contact with him ast this point, the bwb knows quite a bit about the realm.

She had not been a POV for two books now, there's no telling what truths she knows

Call it crackpot or not, it's plausible at this point

[Jon of the Dead]

I like it, and I think there's some forshadowing for this:

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

The Mother gives the gift of life, and watches over every wife.

Her gentle smile ends all strife, and she loves her little children.

I do agree that Lightbringer is not a specific sword, originally, but I think a sword will become LB after it is used to kill Lady S

Sounds pretty good.

I particulary like

"Dragon= Jon Waking= lightbringer stone= lady stoneheart"

Yeah, me too. Very good catch, OP

[Lord A.Reyne]

She thinks he is the only part of Ned left alive that she can reach at this point, if you don't understand that you're in need of a re-read. Although she may have no contact with him ast this point, the bwb knows quite a bit about the realm.

She had not been a POV for two books now, there's no telling what truths she knows

Call it crackpot or not, it's plausible at this point

Thank you, I also find it plausible. Grrm didn't bring Cat back for nothing.

Yet it would imply that Jon finds the BwB, because it's unlikely for UnCat to go to the wall.

[Jon of the Dead]

Thank you, I also find it plausible. Grrm didn't bring Cat back for nothing.

Yet it would imply that Jon finds the BwB, because it's unlikely for UnCat to go to the wall.

Or they can meet halfway, at the Neck. More especifically, at Greywater Watch. I think both Cat and Jon would find some enlightening information there...

[House Of Wolves]

Generally the ones who speak truth are looked upon as illogical fools until the truth is proven. (See all of the known history of our modern society) although we may be wrong ;) I refuse to stop believing this theory because of the sheer poetics. (Cats hatred for Jon from book one.) it would be so beautiful if she would "sacrifice" herself for the "son" she hated to make him truly realize his purpose. Go ahead and ridicule me, I can take it. (Edit) I did not propose the "dragon, stone, and fire" part before and I very much like your take on that part of the prophesy

Glad to see some one else can see the truth thats right in front of them. the fact that beric was able to create something so similar to lightbringer is way better then any other evidence of the creation of lightbringer so i dont get why people ridicule this idea. As for how the sacrifice will actually happen like i said there could be many different ways . If I had to guess how this happens Jon and Cat wouldn't know there actually creating lightbringer unlike the original AA/Nissa. But again its all speculation at that point

[Snowisnobastard]

I like it, and I think there's some forshadowing for this:

I do agree that Lightbringer is not a specific sword, originally, but I think a sword will become LB after it is used to kill Lady S

Yeah, me too. Very good catch, OP

Jon's sword longclaw is pointed out to have an unusually comfortable leather grip in his burned hand in the chapter in aGoT where mormount presents jorahs refurbished sword to him... Just saying ;)

[Jon of the Dead]

Jon's sword longclaw is pointed out to have an unusually comfortable leather grip in his burned hand in the chapter in aGoT where mormount presents jorahs refurbished sword to him... Just saying ;)

Nice catch! Longclaw could be moving ahead of Oathkeeper on my list of Lighbringer candidates

[Snowisnobastard]

Nice catch! Longclaw could be moving ahead of Oathkeeper on my list of Lighbringer candidates

Thank you sir! I could be reaching but I believe George hides his truths subtly in the plain text early on in the novels that most would overlook.

[House Of Wolves]

I like it, and I think there's some forshadowing for this:

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

Nice one. That is about as good as forshadowing as you can get

[Lord A.Reyne]

Or they can meet halfway, at the Neck. More especifically, at Greywater Watch. I think both Cat and Jon would find some enlightening information there...

If A+H=M&J , Jon must definetely go there.

[Jon of the Dead]

If A+H=M&J , Jon must definetely go there.

And even if it isn't, as long as Howland spill the beans to Jon and Cat would be priceless. I can just see them both going "well, that explains a lot"

[Natasi]

I think this is great and the most logical theory for Lightbringer that I've read yet.

And UnCat doesn't have to want to help Jon, they could create it through powerful emotions of hurt, distrust, and betrayal.

Lady Stoneheart being killed to support another character: The way I see it, she could have supported Jon as a mother or positive leadership figure a long time ago; she chose not to. She dedicated her life to supporting her trueborn children and look where that got her. She died thinking all her children were lost to her. Now as an undead being, she has the opportunity to give Jon a second chance. Wouldn't this ease her grief and satisfy her hunger for revenge if she could play such a crucial role in the triumph of the North over its enemies? I guess I don't see it as a marginalization of her role. It feels like this is the path she's on and isn't much different if she died helping Sansa or Arya instead. She arguably has more of an impact if she supports Jon instead as per this theory.

[Snowisnobastard]

If A+H=M&J , Jon must definetely go there.

And I so hope he does. I believe George "killed" Jon to dissuade those who figured out his parentage early on in the novels as well as to relieve him from his duties in the NW. Who besides us freaky folk in the forum would be theorizing about Jon still being alive after aDwD, much less Becoming AA? The general reader will not see it coming (especially considering he had traveled less than any other POV character that we have been with this far) {just look at the character travel maps} (not to mention being a bastard in the NW and giving up whatever birthrights a bastard of a lord would have to begin with) to me it seems from the beginning that he is the least likely to have a lasting impact, which makes me think that Jon will eventually rule, or at very least save the realm of men (or have an impact on the fate if westeros) again I could be totally off base, this is just where my mind leads me.

[Lord A.Reyne]

And I so hope he does. I believe George "killed" Jon to dissuade those who figured out his parentage early on in the novels as well as to relieve him from his duties in the NW. Who besides us freaky folk in the forum would be theorizing about Jon still being alive after aDwD, much less Becoming AA? The general reader will not see it coming (especially considering he had traveled less than any other POV character that we have been with this far) {just look at the character travel maps} (not to mention being a bastard in the NW and giving up whatever birthrights a bastard of a lord would have to begin with) to me it seems from the beginning that he is the least likely to have a lasting impact, which makes me think that Jon will eventually rule, or at very least save the realm of men (or have an impact on the fate if westeros) again I could be totally off base, this is just where my mind leads me.

I think you have it right. Martin has declared that we mustn't assume Jon is dead, so I believe many people out here are aware we're not yet done with the shy bastard. Yet that shy bastard happens to be the true heir to the IT, and we'll see him considering this option before the end.