The Dragon has three heads Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Haha I proposed something similar sometime ago, but it was more about the fact that nissa, whomever she may have been was "dead" ie resurrected when AA took his sword and plunged it through her heart.In this regard it can only be cat and Mel who can pass on the...gift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 AA would be Brienne so.Geographically, would make more sense.Stoneheart could never go to the wall with her small posse of outlaws. And she's freakin dead, she will froze in the north no ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 well for cat to give her un-life up for Jon by giving him the kiss of life could be a great sacrifice.. no? It would be very interesting if that did happen, It seems to me that the prophecy will probably play out a bit differently the second time around, while still drawing strong parallels to the first. But ya never know with George, TWoW needs to come out soon damnit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 I've always felt that in order for there to be a new Lightbringer, then there needs to be a similar sacrifice that Nissa Nissa was for the original Azor Ahai - it needs to be something or someone you loved above all else. I'm doubtful if Cat would be applicable as such a sacrifice, since she's hardly even alive at this point - she does not eat nor sleep - so she doesn't seem such a valuable sacrifice. The only people who might sacrifice Cat as the one thing they love best could be Arya and Sansa (maybe even Blackfish), but Jon... not really, no love between those two. Even if we accept the fact that Cat might see Jon as the last remaining piece of Ned on Earth, we have no evidence whatsoever that Cat is no longer able to have any kind of warm feelings about anyone, her life (existence is perhaps a better word for this) is centered around revenge. If she ever happened to come face to face with Jon, I'm more inclined to believe Cat would have him hanged in all her bitterness. I was also pondering about the flaming swords and Stannis' alledged Lightbringer. Remember what Aemon thought about it when Stannis showed it to him and Sam. I don't think anyone expects Lightbringer to go up in flames, but Aemon did assume that there should be warmth eminating from the blade. Just like Melisandre is always warm, even at the Wall. If there's one possible Lightbringer scenario that I could come up with these ingredients, it's something that I've mentioned before added with a little twist. I've had this fear that one day Arya and Cat will meet again. This will be one of the bittersweet things that we are to expect from GRRM. UnCat will get some peace knowing that at least one of her children is alive, and Arya will give her mother the gift of mercy. Remember, that during their adventures in the Riverlands, the Hound specifically asked Arya if she remembered where the heart is. If what I described above would happen, there's only one blade that Arya would press through her mother's heart, and that's where I'd put my money on... Needle becoming the Lightbringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 AA would be Brienne so. Geographically, would make more sense. Stoneheart could never go to the wall with her small posse of outlaws. And she's freakin dead, she will froze in the north no ? See, that's what I thought for a long time, and it makes a lot of sense She has Oathkeeper, which is a fine candidate for being AA, and the original AA killed a lion (Jaime) after he forged LB Plus, she almost got killed by Biter near Saltpans (salt), I think, and the Mummers had set the place on fire (smoke) And in Jaime's dream she has a flaming sword BUT...according to the prophecy of the Ghost of HH, the PtwP (assuming it is the same as AA) will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So Brienne, as far as we know, doesn't live up to that particular requirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anizzle Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Or they can meet halfway, at the Neck. More especifically, at Greywater Watch. I think both Cat and Jon would find some enlightening information there... I kinda hate the idea of Cat finding out about Jon in the context of this theory. I think it would be considerably more powerful, storywise, if unCat was Nissa Nissa'd by Jon without knowing the truth of his parentage. Under that circumstance, the sacrifice is so much more selfless than if Cat knew Jon wasn't actually Ned's son because both characters would be forced to examine their relationship in a way never explored in the books. Cat would have to give her life to she's never cared for/respected/loved/has resented their very presence in the world, and has to overcome all these feelings to make Lightbringer happen. Also, it feels too predictable and easy for Cat to learn about R+L=J or whatever theory, and then offer her self in sacrifice for the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 This theory is plausible but IMO unlikely. Catelyn is all about her children and Ned. She might be reconciled towards Jon eventually because he's Ned's son. But if she finds out he's not Ned's son, saving him will in no way be part of saving Ned. She wouldn't do it willingly for Jon. Second, the whole part of the NN death was that it was the person AA loved most, as he was all too well aware: The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer.[2] --without that bond, the sacrifice is cheapened, for it is AA;s sacrifice too. Jon loves Sam, maybe Val and Arya. Also, he has a weird bond with Melisandre, so let's throw her in too. If he's going to do a Nissa Nissa on someone, it should be one of them, not Cat. Besides, if Cat is all about her children, I think she should die in the presence of or at the loving hand of one of her kids. Arya is indeed the most likely, but Sansa's not impossible. Even she could screw her courage to the sticking post and gently kill her undead mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Not sure if this has been discussed but this is an idea i have been thinking about regarding lightbringer and nissa nissa. I am convinced that Catelyn Stark is nissa nissa and will be the one Jon Snow (AAR) sacrifices in order to bring forth lightbringer. Now We all know the story of lightbringer. Azor Ahai forges a sword that he drives into his wife Nissa Nissas chest , her soul combines with the steel of the sword, creating lightbringer. I think most people when thinking about lightbringer focus to much on the power of the sword that Azor Ahai forges and don't see that the power of lightbringer didnt come from the sword but it is a power that was within nissa nissa. The sword itself only needed to be able to withstand the power of the light inside of nissa nissa. The power of lightbringer comes from nissa nissa and the one who is able to capture that power is Azor Ahai So why do i think that Catelyn is Nissa Nissa? Well we have already seen the power of lightbringer (nissa nissa) when Beric uses a flaming sword. The power of nissa nissa started with Thoros then was passed to Beric who passed it to Catelyn. Thoros is a changed man, no longer a fat priest with a fake flaming sword, saying, "I am not the false priest you knew. The Lord of Light has woken in my soul. Many powers long asleep are waking and there are forces moving in the land." The light/powers in his soul Thoros is talking about is the light/power of lightbringer and he passed this onto Beric when he resurrected him. Thoros says a prayer to R'hllor, and then Dondarrion cuts open his palm with his sword, causing the blade to take fire. This is the exact thing described in the creation of lightbringer. Nissa Nissas blood was what created the flames of lightbringer. Berics version is just a weaker/incomplete version then the the real lightbringer because his sacrifice wasn't significant enough. Beric then passes this power onto Catelyn when he gives his own life in order to resurrect her as Thoros did for him. So now do I think just any one can stab Catelyn through the heart and get lightbringer? No I think there are certain circumstances of who can bring forth lightbringer. Most people think that Azor Ahai and Nissa need to be in love but i don't think these are the terms needed for the sacrifice of lightbringer. At this point it would only be speculation as to what is needed for the sacrifice .We do know Jon and Cat both have unbelievably strong emotions towards one another. It could also be nissa nissa just has to give here life willingly or the people them selves could be whats important. Again what ever it is its just speculation. There are many and more scenarios in which i could see happening when Jon and Cat create lightbringer. This is another idea i thought of when thinking about this theory. Melisandre and her visions of a dragon waking from stone and its importance towards Azor Ahai. Dragon= Jon Waking= lightbringer stone= lady stoneheart Not sure if I am just trying to stretch things but If You try to see what she might have seen A dragon breaking through stone unleashing a bunch of fire , then its not to much of a stretch. People are often seen in such ways in the flames. Just one example of this is marquo seeing eruon as a one eyed kraken. So I think its is possible Jon could be seen as a dragon and catelyns heart would be shown as stone/ i mean she is called stoneheart after all . Jon (the dragon) stabs catelyns heart (stone) waking lightingbringer. This shouldn't be seen as evidence towards my original theory but i just thought it was an interesting idea. Just to recap I think Catelyn (Nissa Nissa) is the one with the power of lightbringer and Jon (Azor Aha) Is the one who will claim this power. Thoughts? I am a believer of the “Ice is the original Lightbringer” theory, and Ice was split into widows wail and Oathkeeper - and Brienne or Jaime is likely about to stab Stoneheart in the stone heart, and yes, I agree that that will bring the blade to catch fire. Cause how is Jon going to stab Stoneheart? I mean, logistically? Theyre arent close to each other. But Oathkeeper is IN THE SAME ROOM as Stoneheart, right now. Recall Jamies dream of being under Casterly Rock - he and Brienne hold flaming swords. Not sure if this igniting will be the final igniting or forging of LB, but I bet it does take flame - waking from stone. I think that if Ice is original Lightbringer, then it needs to be forged back together. But who knows. Maybe it is meant to be used in two pieces, by two manifestations of AA or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 This theory is plausible but IMO unlikely. Catelyn is all about her children and Ned. She might be reconciled towards Jon eventually because he's Ned's son. But if she finds out he's not Ned's son, saving him will in no way be part of saving Ned. She wouldn't do it willingly for Jon. Second, the whole part of the NN death was that it was the person AA loved most, as he was all too well aware: The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer.[2] --without that bond, the sacrifice is cheapened, for it is AA;s sacrifice too. Jon loves Sam, maybe Val and Arya. Also, he has a weird bond with Melisandre, so let's throw her in too. If he's going to do a Nissa Nissa on someone, it should be one of them, not Cat. Besides, if Cat is all about her children, I think she should die in the presence of or at the loving hand of one of her kids. Arya is indeed the most likely, but Sansa's not impossible. Even she could screw her courage to the sticking post and gently kill her undead mother. See my above comment - if you are looking for the stabbing of Catelyn to be sacrificial on the part of the sword weilder, Brienne is the lady for the job. And she is holding half of Ice, original Lightbringer (IMO). When stoneheart orders her to kill Jaime, as get gave her oath to do, she’s going to perhaps break her oath ( a betrayal) and stab Stoneheart. That will be a blood betrayal to wake dragons from stone. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Crystal Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 An even more crackpot scenario could suggest that Jaime will be the "dragon". If you subscribe to the whole A+J=J+C theory. Plus he's a lot closer to LS in the books right now than Jon is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Could Stoneheart & Beric be carrying the ingredients for creating Nissa-Nissa & Lightbringer? If this curse/second life was passed to someone Jon Loves, lets say Arya for example, could Jon releasing her from this second life via stabbing her through the Heart with a sword beyond any other, lets say Dawn for example, be the way to reforge Lightbringer? I personally think Lightbringer is Drogon & the Watch & both Jon &Dany are AA, but Berics Fire-blood could be a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Of Wolves Posted July 20, 2015 Author Share Posted July 20, 2015 I am a believer of the “Ice is the original Lightbringer” theory, and Ice was split into widows wail and Oathkeeper - and Brienne or Jaime is likely about to stab Stoneheart in the stone heart, and yes, I agree that that will bring the blade to catch fire. Cause how is Jon going to stab Stoneheart? I mean, logistically? Theyre arent close to each other. But Oathkeeper is IN THE SAME ROOM as Stoneheart, right now. Recall Jamies dream of being under Casterly Rock - he and Brienne hold flaming swords. Not sure if this igniting will be the final igniting or forging of LB, but I bet it does take flame - waking from stone. I think that if Ice is original Lightbringer, then it needs to be forged back together. But who knows. Maybe it is meant to be used in two pieces, by two manifestations of AA or something like that. I actually realy like the theory of oath keeper being light bringer a lot. I just Think that Azor Ahai will be the one too bring forth light bringer and I just don't see Brienne or Jamie being AA . As for Jon Not being currently close to Cat I don't think that means they wont be in the future .Its not like lightbringer must be forged at the start of winds of winter. People have traveled much greater distances in half a book and they are 2 people instead of one person that could potentially meet somewhere in the middle of there current location like the neck for instance. As to Jamie's dream maybe It just means both Jamie and Brienne both carry the sword that will one day become light bringer not that they them selves will be the ones to forge it. Although I am not saying its impossible for them to I just think it will be Jon who brings forth light bringer from lady stone heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avlonnic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Very nice post, House of Wolves. I like the way you laid this out. Below are links to a few of the discussions about SH = NN. You may find more backup for the theory in one of them. Some of these are threads dedicated to the topic while others are threads in which the topic arises in the comments. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125403-catelyn-tully-will-be-the-nissa-nissa-to-someones-azor-ahai/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99216-lightbringernissa-nissa-theory/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117080-flaming-swords-comets-nissa-nissa-ned-stark-khal-drog-jon-snow/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94494-possibly-crackpot-theory-of-lightbringerazor-ahai/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132064-wht-happens/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112873-is-jon-lightbringer/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83466-could-stoneheart-save-jon/ http://newscentral.exsees.com/item/3a7a74b340f237b0ce3182a9466c259c-940d5a6ec59c6d9b4289edab0c617f82 http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-point-in-bringing-back-Catelyn-as-Lady-Stoneheart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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