Black Crow

Nice piece on Casterley Rock in GRRM's notablog - and an ominous hint that Winds of Winter may still have a way to go.

We’ve been discussing the Song of Ice and Fire for some time [years and years] now of course and with no sign yet of another book have rather run out of material and so that some have turned to a variety of other [generally TV related] things. With Christmas coming up I’d like to raise some ASOIAF questions about where people might think that this is going, and possibly the whys and wherefores of this. The first thing to bear in mind of course is the question of time. GRRM has been writing this story for a long time, a very long time. According to Wikipedia – and who am I to doubt it – he began writing ASOIAF in 1991, publishing the first book in what was intended to be a trilogy in 1996. We’re now just over thirty years on from that beginning and so much has changed over the years. The world itself has changed. As I’ve pointed out before, GRRM began writing this story in the shadow of the collapse of the Iron Curtain or to we Europeans die Mauer – the Wall – on the night of 9 November 1989. The basic concept of the Wall and its ultimate fall was there from the very beginning – and so too was the question of which side the good guys are really on – die Mauer was built as a defence against the West[eros], not the other way around. Leaving aside those awkward questions of good and bad, from the very beginning we were introduced to and have followed the Stark family, whose story is unfortunate but who are undoubtedly tied to the Wall and its ultimate fate. Now many years ago GRRM firmly stated that he wouldn’t change the ending because somebody had figured it out. The Faithful of course loudly took this as confirmation that they were right in proclaiming Jon Snow/Stark to be the secret son of Rhaegar Targaryen! Or did he mean something else ? Consider the Dragons. We know from GRRM that they were a late addition to the story. Obviously they do figure, at least tentatively, by the time the first book was published, but presumably he was persuaded or inspired to include them at some point during the five years it took him to write it and that initially at least he began by writing a story about Westeros and die Mauer which did not include the Dragons or the Targaryens and may have contemplated an ending which did not require their intervention – ok an alternative is that he got himself stuck with the contemplated ending until it occurred to him that dragons were the answer, but somehow I doubt it. The point is that the story, by which I specifically mean the Song of Ice and Fire, as written so far is about the Starks rather than the Targaryens. And now he, as an author has written and become involved in, a story about the Targaryens. So… How are the two related - really ? Can we expect GRRM to continue to the end his 30+ year task of writing the Song of Ice and Fire and Starks, as would seem to be implied by his warnings about a bittersweet end, or has it changed into a Song of Ice [Starks] and Fire [Targaryens], using the House of the Dragon to add in a necessary part of the story that he didn’t contemplate at the outset and which hasn’t so far covered in the primary [for want of a better word] book ?

Danaerys the Dragonlord doesn't come into it. The original synopsis linked Jon and Arya although some of us reckoned on Heresy that as written GRRM was going to substitute Sansa for Arya instead as being closer in age. All that the mummers' version has done is confirm this.

Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. [GRRM 1993]

Agreed. While death may no longer be what it once was, having died is bound to knock Jon sideways. Now that being said, I have a suspicion as to where this is going. In the book, when Mance Rayder is about to attack Castle Black Jon is called upon to take command, but is reluctant until Aegon Targaryen proclaims "You are a son of Winterfell. It must be you or no-one!" It is such a splendid line I was surprised and puzzled that the mummers didn't use it. Instead, however, we know from the trailer that Sansa is going to succeed in getting herself an army but we've also seen the reservations about her on the one hand and about "Lord Snow" on the other. Therefore I can easily see the line being used by Sansa to rouse Jon and get the army to follow him as a son of Winterfell.

Inevitably we're now into two different texts given that the master one hasn't been completed far less published, but the mummers are aware of the milestones and as I've just said on the main thread I'll be interested to see how long the dam lasts before the milestones are "released" for discussion, given that they are already all over the internet.

I wouldn't necessarily get too excited. There are three possible outcomes. We could learn the truth of R+L=J although I think this unlikely, its not explicit in the book so there would have to be a major change. Secondly we could learn that Jon's father is Ser Arthur Dayne, who appears to feature very prominently in the trailers. Either is possible, but without delving into the relative merits of either it doesn't feel like the right time. Jon is far far away and has a lot of other stuff on his mind, including perhaps a battle for Winterfell as the season finale. On the whole I'm very much more inclined to think that the vision may largely revolve around Meera's father saving Bran's father from Ser Arthur, which would fit well with Bran's current story-line

As I recall, in the last season there was a walk on appearance by Master Benero - as a woman. I suspect that the one in the previews might be called [or at least filling in for] Moqorro

No need to skim; the Heresy OP always includes a link.

Its more a matter of knowing or not knowing the individual personally.

... in the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions

Very useful, Wolfmaid. For those who haven't yet gone there Heresy 6 is an absolute must as it contains a complete transcript of all of Old Nan's tales.

Ah, no, Edinburgh Castle is called Edinburgh Castle. We do sometimes refer to the castle rock but only in the sense of the rock on which Edinburgh Castle sits. Mind you, there is a very popular kind of candy, which I loved when I was a kid, called Edinburgh Castle Rock. :cool4:

Bran is Bran the Blessed, from the Mabinogion.

As I've suggested before I have a suspicion that a mummers's dragon (a real one) may be involved.

Just a subversive little thought; while its plausibly suggested the tunnels and caverns provide a refuge from the cold, they are also places of darkness and might serve equally well as a refuge from light and fire.

A very proper response to such a daring coup :cool4: Just by the by, the hay wain trick wasn't a replay of the Trojan Horse. They jammed it under the portcullis long enough for everybody else to break cover and dash in through the open gate.

Possibly, but very effective if Aegon and his men were/are pretending to be Mummers - it worked for the Black Douglas and it fits the prophecy in a turn around and bite you on the bum sort of way

Had a happy thought while I was reading this one as to how this utterly impregnable castle was taken so swiftly - it was a dragon, a mummer's dragon made of cloth held up with poles as already described by GRRM in prophecy. Yes, really - with young Griff and some of his men inside. Leaving aside obvious precedents like that wooden horse at Troy, GRRM prides himself on a good working knowledge of mediaeval military history and the Scottish Wars of Independence and will therefore be pretty familiar with Douglas taking Roxburgh by moving up his men hidden under bits of cloth to look like cattle in the twilight, and there was another one (I forget which) where they pulled the old trick of the hay wain stuffed full of soldiers. Never mind the metaphysical prophecies, Storms End was (or rather will be) "liberated" by a mummers' cloth dragon on poles :cool4: