in defense of theon greyjoy

[INCBlackbird]

Do you really think that hostages with stockholm syndrome have been subjected to other hormones in the brain than a victim of domestic abuse? That is the material point. The same thing occurs in the brain, that's why it's the same and has the same psychological effect. It doesn't make any difference to the processes in the brain whether it's a hostage taker, a sexual partner, a parent, a warden in a POW camp, a torturer.

but the same thing doesn't occur because it's a different situation. a simular thing may occur but this situation is not a black and white thing, it's different for everyone according to personality, situation, specific events, time period... you have to take all of that into account and domesitc violence is a different situation from hostage taking so you can't start with a different situation already. either you go from general stockholm syndrome or from stockholm syndrome in cases of prisoners of war and/or hostage situations (you'd need get stuff from those two situations I think) and relate it to theon...

[sweetsunray]

Sounds sarcastic but isn't question: could birth be regarded as a trauma-bond?

The components necessary for a trauma bond to form are a power differential, intermittent good/bad treatment, and high arousal and bonding periods.

and keep in mind that power differential actually means oppression differential

While this article will continue to utilize the phrase "power imbalance", it might be said that the problem in a family abuse situation isn't about power and control so much as it is about oppression and control. Power in and of itself is not a negative quality. The word comes from the Latin posse, which means, "to be able" [World Book Dictionary, 1977; p. 1633]. From observation, truly powerful people are indeed able and secure and generally empower others. Those who abuse power more than likely do so as a result of a reaction formation to their own basic insecurity and inadequacy which is reinforced by social permission for violence. Oppression would be a better term to utilize in these cases as its definition includes "cruel or unjust treatment" which more aptly describes violent relationships [World Book Dictionary, 1977; p. 1459].

Birth is a physical trauma, for the child and the mother. Is there by definition an oppressive power imbalance? No. Is there intermittent good and bad treatment of either the mother by the baby, or of the baby by the mother at birth? No. Is there high arousal bonding: for the mother there is... birthing starts with oxytocine release, which also helps to start the milk to flow (and women also get a great dosis of the same hormone when having an orgasm). Oxytocine is called the bonding/empathy hormone. The drug XTC tries to mimic oxytocine, which is why it's called the love/empathy drug.

So there is physical trauma, there is bonding, but no oppressive power balance and intermittent punishment-vs-reward treatment. So, no it's not a trauma bond.

[sweetsunray]

but the same thing doesn't occur because it's a different situation.

And that's where you're wrong: the same thing occurs biochemically in the brain, with the same psychological symptoms.

You're basically arguing (in analogy) that the PTSD of a soldier is different from an abuse victim, because it's born from a different situation, while it affects both in the exact same manner, with the same symptoms.

[Dragon88]

To me Theon is a confused person who didn't know what to do and end up doing stupid shit and paying for it. I think he payed a lot and should be given a chance to redeem himself.

[James Arryn]

and keep in mind that power differential actually means oppression differential

Birth is a physical trauma, for the child and the mother. Is there by definition an oppressive power imbalance? No. Is there intermittent good and bad treatment of either the mother by the baby, or of the baby by the mother at birth? No. Is there high arousal bonding: for the mother there is... birthing starts with oxytocine release, which also helps to start the milk to flow (and women also get a great dosis of the same hormone when having an orgasm). Oxytocine is called the bonding/empathy hormone. The drug XTC tries to mimic oxytocine, which is why it's called the love/empathy drug.

So there is physical trauma, there is bonding, but no oppressive power balance and intermittent punishment-vs-reward treatment. So, no it's not a trauma bond.

Is the experiential effect, esp. physiologically, contingent upon both parties seeing it as such? Like pre-suppose an abuser who thinks he is a prophet or divine being or any of a million scenarios where he does not view his actions as abuse, and therefore is not thinking in terms of reward/punishment, but rather teaching. Would the physiological aftershocks register any differently?

Edit: I don't even mean Skinner/Watson brand of teaching, either.

[sweetsunray]

Is the experiential effect, esp. physiologically, contingent upon both parties seeing it as such? Like pre-suppose an abuser who thinks he is a prophet or divine being or any of a million scenarios where he does not view his actions as abuse, and therefore is not thinking in terms of reward/punishment, but rather teaching. Would the physiological aftershocks register any differently?

You're describing the "guru" situation in sects. It's another example of stockholm syndrome/ trauma bonding. An abuser may believe himself not to be an abuser (just think of pedophiles who believe the child really wanted the attention, and some actually do believe that), but the abuse still takes place.

[James Arryn]

You're describing the "guru" situation in sects. It's another example of stockholm syndrome/ trauma bonding. An abuser may believe himself not to be an abuser (just think of pedophiles who believe the child really wanted the attention, and some actually do believe that), but the abuse still takes place.

Right, cool, getting there.

So, then for the birthed child which cannot distinguish from benign vs. malignant versions, the on-off waves of trauma, the disempowered terror and the chemical signatures coupled with a notable bond might be indistinguishable from a trauma-bond, no? Does it take definable cognition?

Edit: more productive: how early have the chemical signatures of t-b been found?

Edit 2: really appreciate your taking the time. My curiosity's been aroused.

[sweetsunray]

So, then for the birthed child which cannot distinguish from benign vs. malignant versions, the on-off waves of trauma, the disempowered terror and the chemical signatures coupled with a notable bond might be indistinguishable from a trauma-bond, no? Does it take definable cognition?

SS/trauma bonding occurs subconsciously. A victim has little or no control over it.

You might try to argue that, but there is the issue that the baby won't be cognitively self-deluding itself over the amount of control it has on the relationship (SS victims typically have no control, but build the empathic relationship in part to feel in control), nor will a baby display helping behaviour towards the mother or be empathic towards the mother. It's not going to stop crying to appease the mother when it needs a diaper change or is hungry or has stomach cramps.

The problem is that the psychological impact, modeling and cognitive processes are not present in the birthed baby case.

Edit: more productive: how early have the chemical signatures of t-b been found?

Not sure what exactly you mean with t-b.

[James Arryn]

SS/trauma bonding occurs subconsciously. A victim has little or no control over it.

You might try to argue that, but there is the issue that the baby won't be cognitively self-deluding itself over the amount of control it has on the relationship (SS victims typically have no control, but build the empathic relationship in part to feel in control), nor will a baby display helping behaviour towards the mother.

Not sure what exactly you mean with t-b.

T-b: trauma bonding. How young has it been detectable, physiologically?

Also, my dad's a shrink, emphasis on psychology over psychiatry, so I am behaving myself by emphasizing data. :)

[sweetsunray]

T-b: trauma bonding. How young has it been detectable, physiologically?

Also, my dad's a shrink, emphasis on psychology over psychiatry, so I am behaving myself by emphasizing data. :)

That I don't know. But children who've been submitted to abuse may display it, including toddlers.

I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I'm a survivor of mostly mental (drama, one crazy situation into the other, and sleep terrorizing) and financial abuse who thoroughly read up on what I needed to know to break the damaging bond, and to understand what the heck had been going on in my brain and was going on (low case of PTSD) so that eventually I could put my own contribution to it in a proper perspective. Not a chemist either. I'm an industrial designer, now going for my second major in physics, but taking biophysics as optional subjects.

[James Arryn]

That I don't know. But children who've been submitted to abuse may display it, including toddlers.

I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I'm a survivor of mostly mental (drama, one crazy situation into the other, and sleep terrorizing) and financial abuse who thoroughly read up on what I needed to know to break the damaging bond, and to understand it so that eventually I could put my own contribution to it in a proper perspective. Not a chemist either. I'm an industrial designer, now going for my second major in physics, but taking biophysics as optional subjects.

Oh, ok, cheers. Learning about something is a way of taking back the night, so to speak, so good luck.

Edit: I am seriously wondering about the mother-child/trauma-bond kinetic, now. Thanks for the push.

[sweetsunray]

Oh, been long over it. I share about it, because it's info that needs to get out there in general. There are too many misconceptions about it, and those don't help someone who is still right smack in the middle of it.

But to go back on the chemical signature itself:

Let's say you're on some adventure journey in some foreign country, somewhere were you could experience culture shock. The adventures along the way and the culture shock would contribute to biochemical hormones to be released in the brain that are similar to the trauma bond, and the people in the traveling group bond very fast. I used to be an adventure tourleader in Latin America. I would typically make the first few days quite intense. Within 3 days people have the feeling they've known each other for weeks already. The difference is that ultimately it is benign group relationship without actual abuse factors, and therefore people can let go after the trip far easier. Though it's pretty intense, an actual trauma bond is even chemically intenser than that.

Evolutionary wise you could argue that it makes sense that people bond easier during trauma than not: in storms, or threatened by a pride of lions, it helps to stick together and be cooperative with each other, and nature smooths the way through hormonal chemicals in the brain. The trauma bond (in its captor/abuser form) then is in that sense a side effect.

[INCBlackbird]

well, I said I would do some extensive research on the stockholm syndrome thing and I did! it took me a long time, i'm really slow when writing meta, but I finished it! I made a separate thread for it because it's pretty long and I think the subject deserves a thread of it's own, but I thought I'd post it here as well since this is where we had the argument first. so here's the link : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116980-does-theon-have-stockholm-syndrome/

[Chabwera]

- The starks were not his real family and they didn't treat him as a family member, except for robb.

Theon didn't betray the Starks. He betrayed Robb, the one Stark that created him as family. And he knows this, which is why he suffers from guilt.