Does Theon have Stockholm syndrome?

[INCBlackbird]

I have had many arguments about this topic so I decided to do some research on what stockholm syndrome exactly is. I read about it in several books (I have the sources saved!) and wrote a summary of what they said about stockholm syndrome. then connected all that to Theon and his relationship with the Starks, or well Ned Stark in particular, since he was his captor.

I will go through all of Theon's a dance with dragons chapters and do the same with Ramsay, but I'm still working on that. I will post it here (or maybe make a new thread about it, depending on how things escalate on here). anyways, here's my full analysis:

The shame of the family:

It’s important to analyze Theon’s relationship with his family to better understand the effects of his later relationships with the Starks and Ramsay Bolton

Theon and Balon:

"My father," she told him. "Once you’re gone, he’ll punish me, milord. He’ll call me names and hit me.”

Theon swept his cloak off its peg and over his shoulders. “Fathers are like that,” he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp.

We don’t know much about Theon’s relationship to his father before he was taken to Winterfell, but we can make assumptions based on what Theon says about him. the above quote is from his first chapter in ACOK when he is on his way home, he is desperately trying to be “manly” and “iron born” (although he has a warped idea of what being Iron born means by now), to impress his family. The fact that he is trying to live up to his father’s standards tells me that he knows such a thing is not easy, we know he got beaten up by his brothers and his father did not stop those beatings, maybe he even encouraged them (“fathers are like that”), probably because his last son was a disappointment from the start, too “weak” (shy & meek) to be a true Greyjoy, and he probably hoped those beatings would make a harder man out of him.

Theon and his brothers

The few times Theon remembers his brothers he can only think off the abuse he suffered at their hands. He tells Patrek Mallister that he bears his father no enmity for slaying Rodrik, if he thinks he does it’s because “he never knew Rodrik”. Theon was a victim of his brothers bullying but there is another layer to their relationship. According to Asha “She remembered Theon as a boy, a shy child who lived in awe, and fear, of Rodrik and Maron.” Theon wasn’t just afraid of his brothers, he lived in awe of them. This is not surprising considering the fact that he grew up only getting the perspective of his father and possibly his mother (but she’s a woman so her opinion is not considered credible anyway) on who he was supposed to be. And his father was obsessed with the old ways, he considered his brothers to be his perfect sons, they were how true greyjoys were supposed to be and Theon was not. So despite the fact that they abused him, Theon wanted to be like his brothers, they were, in a way, his examples. He may have even tried to imitate them (and probably failed, because Theon is simply not like that.)

So even at a very young age Theon learns two important things:

1. He is the problem, he is the one who has to change, he doesn’t get accepted because he’s not the person he’s supposed to be. This will lead to his identity crisis
   
2. He learns to admire his abusers. This will lead to his Stockholm syndrome
   

The hostage

Stockholm syndrome

The term Stockholm syndrome derives from a specific hostage situation that took place in Stockholm in 1973 where a few people were held hostage threatened with death for 6 days during which they became attached to their captors, defended them and actively helped them in their cause.

What is Stockholm syndrome?

Stockholm syndrome is an unconscious psychological phenomenon in which a captive identifies and sympathizes with their captor as a defense mechanism.

What causes Stockholm syndrome?

Stockholm syndrome can develop in hostage situations, prisoners of war and domestic violence - when a person is under the complete control of someone who they believe has the ability to hurt them and believe will hurt them if the situation calls for it. They have no control over their lives anymore and as a way to reduce anxiety they start seeing their captors in the most positive light possible and therefore start sympathizing and even identifying with them. Because if you are afraid of someone, you can partially conquer that fear by becoming more like them.

Because hostage takers control the hostages’ well-being (their lives), hostages can become so psychologically dependent on their captors that they come to trust them to reduce the anxiety that is inherently attached to their feelings of dependence. The hostage strives to find reasons to trust their captor. As dependence increases, so will selective attention to information that confirms what the hostage wants to believe, therefore a lack of abuse will often be mistaken for an act of kindness (the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits said kindness in some form toward the hostage. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will subpress the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves). Stockholm syndrome is more likely to develop when the hostage is in a situation where they know they cannot escape, they only have access the perspective of their captors, is in close contact with said captors, when there is a lack of physical abuse from the captors but the hostage taker threatens to kill the victim and the hostage believes they are capable of doing so.

What are the effects of Stockholm syndrome?

The hostage is grateful to their captor. They view the perpetrator as giving life by not taking it, because they have the power to do so and the hostage was expecting the worst.

Stockholm syndrome is first and foremost an unconscious survival tactic, in trying to create a bond with the captor (though not as a rational decision), the person their life depends on.

Hostages have to concentrate on survival, requiring avoidance of direct, honest reactions to destructive treatment. They must become highly attuned to the pleasure and displeasure reactions of their captors. As a result, victims seem more concerned about the perpetrator’s feelings than their own.

The captive actively devises strategies for staying alive, including denial, attentiveness to the captor’s wants, fondness (and fear) of the perpetrator, apprehension toward interference by authorities, and adoption of the hostage taker’s perspective.

Theon the hostage of the Starks:

When looking at Theon’s specific situation we don’t have his thoughts to go on when he is still a hostage so we have to deduct our conclusions from what we know about him both from himself and others, what he and his situation are like seen through other people’s eyes, and Theon’s own thoughts after he has been freed.

Facts about Theon’s situation as a hostage:

• Theon was shipped off to Winterfell to live as a hostage of house stark at the age of 9 (8? 10?)
  
• He lived with the Starks for 10 years, under threat of death (and Theon believes Ned would do it)
  
• He was given the standard treatment of high born hostages: He was treated fairly, ate at a table with the Stark children, was given the same education, and was taught the same values…
  
• Ned Stark is Theon’s captor (not the stark children or the people of winterfell), but everyone in Winterfell is part of the Stark culture and they share the same ideas and are aware of Theon’s hostage status. (which is why I will mainly focus on Theon’s relationship with Ned Stark, rather than the Starks altogether)
  
• He knew he couldn’t escape (being pretty damn far from home and all)
  
• He got several thrashings at Winterfell (whether or not this treatment was equal to that of the Stark children is unclear)
  

What we know about Theon as a person:

We know through Asha that as a child he was shy and meek. Which is a stark contrast to what he is when we first meet him in a game of thrones. He made a serious change throughout those years in Winterfell. Theon acts arrogant, blunt, vain and he smiles at all the wrong things.

A logical assumption:

Theon was 9 years old when he watched his home burn. In a clash of kings Theon remembers having nightmares, so we know he must have witnessed some of the distruction. He learned that life is cruel and dangerous and that no one is safe, “boys believe nothing can hurt them, grown men know better”. He loses both his brothers in the war and the rest of his family when he is given to Ned Stark as a hostage. I think it’s a logical assumption that Theon expected all kinds of horrors at the hands of his father’s enemies, children simplify things so Theon probably assumed they were “evil” and it must have been a shock to find out that they weren’t, that they were, in fact, much more loving an accepting then his own family.

What we see of Theon the hostage through other people’s eyes:

His situation:

Smiling at Executions

One of the things that came with being taught the same values as the Stark children was to attend executions. I believe Ned Stark made Theon attend, and even be the carrier of his sword (“Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword.”) as a way to show him respect and make him feel included. But when looking at this from Theon’s perspective it’s not a stretch to understand this was very difficult for him (although he’d never admit it to anyone, not even himself). He had to witness an execution, knowing that if it ever came to that (and it very well could) it would be him on the execution block, getting his head chopped off with Ice.

“The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy’s feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.”

This smiling technique is something he must have taught himself throughout his time in Winterfell, to deal with his situation as a hostage. It is something that he does so prominently that it’s an aspect he is known for. (“Him. Can it be? The stark’s ward. Smiling, always smiling?”), but in particular his smiling gets mentioned when something happens in relation to his status as a hostage. Another occasion is in the first Catelyn chapter in ACOK, when Robb is explaining his conditions for Tywin Lannister, regarding the hostages he’s taken.

“”I shall release my own captives taken in the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps, save Jaime Lannister alone, who will remain my hostage for his father’s good behavior.” She studied Theon Greyjoy’s sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.

What it actually is, is a defense mechanism, a way for Theon to hide his fear (and probably his pain), he has to show one emotion to hide another, in order to appear strong and show his captors that he is not afraid. At the same time it’s also Theon trying to control said emotions, telling himself that the situation is not so serious.

“Theon made himself smile” (Theon VI, ACOK)

Robb (through the eyes of Bran and Catelyn):

The only time Ned Stark ever talks about Theon is when he tells his wife “I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.” It appears that he is seen as a tool, rather than a person by Ned (which goes along with Theon repeatedly thinking about how cold Eddard was to him). Catelyn appears to share her husband’s reasoning, when Robb wants to send Theon home to propose a collaboration because he has need of Balon’s fleet, she argues that Robb will “have them sooner if you keep his son a hostage” Robb insists that “he’s been a hostage half his life” and that he “fought bravely for them”. and Robb, who is known to value his mother’s insight gets angry when she tells him not to trust the situation. “Robb-” “I’m sending Theon. Good day, Mother. Grey Wind, come.” Robb walked off briskly, the direwolf padding beside him.

There is another event that illustrates how Theon was indeed disrespected in Winterfell. In Bran’s 5^th chapter in a game of thrones, Robb awkwardly tells him about Jory’s death and Ned’s injury, “Theon thinks I should call the banners” Robb said. “Blood for blood.” For once Greyjoy did not smile.” But Theon’s word is not enough for Bran, he invalidates his opinion, while he’s standing right there and asks Robb if Maester Luwin thinks he should call the banners as well, because “father always listened to his counsel,” Bran reminded his brother. “Mother too.” and Robb has to defend himself to his little brother “I listen to him,” Robb insisted. “I listen to everyone.” This all seems to come very natural to Bran, as if questioning Theon’s opinion because he is Theon is something that happens often.

All if this put together leads me to the conclusion that Robb has been told many times not to trust Theon/not to be friends with Theon, to the point he gets really frustrated when the subject is brought up. Add to that Cat not understanding (and disliking) Theon’s smile and Bran’s “Robb seemed to admire Theon and enjoy his company” (apparently it’s hard to understand why he does for Bran) Theon seems overall not very well liked, and we can safely assume that Bran’s outburst wasn’t a onetime thing. Theon didn’t even respond to it, he seems accustomed being treated this way, being talked about while he is present. Theon wasn’t only aware of the prejudices about him, he was used to them.

Patrek Mallister (an event seen through Theon’s eyes):

“Patrek Mallister was not too ill a fellow; they shared a taste for wenches, wine, and hawking. But when old Lord Jason saw his heir growing overly fond of Theon’s company, he had taken Patrek aside to remind him that Seagard had been built to defend the coast against reavers from the Iron islands, the Greyjoys of Pyke chief among them.”

Of course, this is not the Starks, but none the less, it definitely affected Theon (who wouldn’t be affected by such prejudices), and he probably assumed many northmen, including the starks, had the same opinion of him as Jason Mallister did (which, considering what we’ve seen through other characters eyes, is not far from the truth of the matter).

How does he deal with said Situation?

We witness Theon doing exactly what Ned Stark says, following his instructions eagerly in an attempt to try to please him. he later voices his feelings about Ned Stark “lord stark is like a second father to me, I do so swear” this is something that Theon wants, rather than the truth of the matter. But I’m sure Theon believes it in this moment, he’s deluded himself into thinking this.

I would also like to address the previously mentioned drastic change in personality he went through: Note that this change doesn’t just come out of nowhere, it can all be traced back to the root of insecurities his family burdened him with, and the prejudiced treatment he got at Winterfell, making them worse to the point where he attempts to hide them behind arrogance.

The point I want to make with all of this is that Theon did not have it good, this is a common misconception. He was prejudiced by the people of Winterfell and his relationship with Robb was not at all encouraged by Ned and Cat. The Starks gave him the standard treatment of a highborn hostage and Theon had no reason to be grateful for that, furthermore Theon’s Stockholm syndrome is just one amongst many defense mechanisms he develops throughout his time in Winterfell.

What his thoughts tell us:

Since Theon is a particularly unreliable narrator it’s important to look at the context to find out the truth behind the words. His exact words won’t be the truth, but there’s a meaning to be found in them, the truth is there, but it’s hidden (both the truth of what really happened and the truth of what these events meant for Theon emotionally). he will distort his real emotions/memories according to who he’s trying to be in the situation he’s in, sometimes he will manage to construct the perfect thought, but sometimes he’s too emotionally unstable and slips up, revealing the real him behind the mask.

““I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell. As a ward of Eddard Stark.” A ward in name, a hostage in truth. Half his days a hostage... but no longer. His life was his own again, and nowhere a Stark to be seen.”

At this point in Theon’s life he’s just been released of his captivity and he feels his newfound freedom very prominently while on his way home “This is the season, Theon thought, the season, the year, the day, and I am the man.” He is filled with great plans for the future (as usual, they are completely out of proportion, but considering the fact that he’s been a hostage for 10 years and just got the freedom to do what he wants again, this is not surprising) He is also very clearly trying to be the best possible Greyjoy he can be “The sea meant freedom to the men of the Iron Islands. He had forgotten that until the Myraham had raised sail at Seagard.” The sea doesn't mean freedom to him just because; it means freedom to him because it means freedom to the Ironborn. And he uses it to remind himself he's also an Ironborn and he MUST consider the sea as freedom. And so it does. (This is a perfect example of how Theon thinks about himself, he doesn’t begin with himself, he begins with “I am a Greyjoy” and then creates a person with certain aspects based on that simple fact, then applies those aspects to himself and tells himself that that’s who he is.) It is important for him to be a Greyjoy now because he is going home and he needs to please his family to get his romanticized plans, and those are some big plans he’s got “This was Theon’s hour-his plan, his glory, and in time his crown.”

““You warn a servant of the Drowned God, boy? You have forgotten more than you know. And you are a great fool if you believe your lord father will ever hand these holy islands over to a Stark.” So that is the way of it, he thought. As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.”

When his uncle Aeron straight-out calls Theon a Stark, and tells him he will not get his father’s crown (because he is a Stark) Theon remembers the worst things about being a hostage. I don’t think he made any of this up, maybe he exaggerated it, but I am convinced Theon specifically focusses on his fear of Ned Stark to convince himself he’s not attached to the Starks at all, and is most definitely still a Greyjoy. But, despite focusing on seeing Ned in a negative light he does mention how he “tried to play the father from time to time”, this line is interesting in particular because what would “playing the father” mean to Theon. we have seen before that he is not exactly fond of fathers when he told the captain’s daughter that hitting and calling you names is “what father’s do.” I do not think Theon associates fathers with affection, but rather with a figure of authority who teaches you “how to be a man”. And I think that’s exactly what Ned Stark did, he included Theon among his own children to teach him the same values. Maybe he even focusses on Theon in particular at moments in order to “gentle” him (as Maester Lewin told Bran he did), I’m sure he treated Theon with respect (probably more respect than a lot of other people in Winterfell gave him) but Theon could never forget that he was his hostage, not his child, there was no real love between them, none the less Theon is grateful for the effort and probably did convince himself there was some love between them when he was still his hostage. After all, he said he was “like a second father to him”.

“That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warharnmer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse.”

I don’t doubt that Theon had nightmares about the Greyjoy’s rebellion, he saw his home burn and was then shipped off to go live the same people who were responsible for said burning. It’s very convenient to remind himself of this, while he’s on his way to meet his father whom he has to impress with his very non Starkishness.

A slight change can be seen when his father doesn’t even come out to greet him upon his arrival at Pyke.

“And I thought Ned Stark cold.”

Theon directly compares his father to Ned Stark here, and apparently concludes that his farther is “colder” then Ned Stark was. He was making excuses for Ned's coldness towards him by comparing him to someone worse, thus trying to put Ned in a positive light and ignoring the fact that Ned wasn't very nice either.

“Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower... but Stark would have done for them just as quick had the tide of battle chanced to sweep them together.”

Theon doesn’t seem to blame Ned Stark for the deaths of his brothers (even though he would have), like his father does, for someone who was held hostage under threat of death, he shows very little resentment (although, he’s definitely trying in this passage), probably because he feels grateful to his captor, because he never appears to see any reason to be resentful to Ned. While, I would think that’s a logical reaction from Theon’s (as the captive) point of view.

When Theon has to actually act upon the personality (of a Greyjoy) he’s taken on, the first cracks in this constructed personality appear and it’s clear for the first time that Theon definitely identifies with Ned Stark, although he’s desperately trying to see him in a bad light due to his attempts to be the person he believes he’s supposed to be (a hard, violent, manly Greyjoy who cares less than nothing for the Starks)

“Gevin Harlaw knelt on a dead man’s chest, sawing off his finger to get at a ring. Paying the iron price. My lord father would approve. Theon thought of seeking out the bodies of the two men he’d slain himself to see if they had any jewelry worth the taking, but the notion left a bitter taste in his mouth. He could imagine what Eddard Stark would have said. Yet that thought made him angry too. Stark is dead and rotting, and naught to me, he reminded himself.”

This quote clearly shows Theon’s conflict when it comes to Ned Stark, we have seen before that he rationally knows Ned was his captor and yet he has to remind himself, that Ned is not of importance, that he is not supposed to identify with him, that he is supposed to be a Greyjoy, who does Greyjoy things. But he can’t even bring himself to take part in what is the core of their culture: to steal from the people he’s killed (“we do not sow”)

“Theon, the Boy Wolf is your friend, and these Starks had you for ten years.” “I am no Stark.” Lord Eddard saw to that. “I am a Greyjoy, and I mean to be my father’s heir. How can I do that unless I prove myself with some great deed? “

And again, when being accused of being a Stark (sort off) Theon responds partially the same as he last time this happened. He is not a Stark, Ned Stark made sure of that. Obviously this statement needs to be taken with a big grain of salt, whenever someone accuses Theon of being a Stark, he immediately responds with annoyance and sudden resentment towards Ned Stark that he didn’t really show before. Theon is probably a case of Theon being resentful towards Ned because his family won’t respect him as one of their own, and neither would the Starks.

“He [Dagmer] gave me more smiles than my father and Eddard Stark together.”

Theon cares about the smiles he didn’t get from Ned, he craved his approval, just like he craved his father’s. Another interesting thing about this line is how he equates Ned to his father by putting them next to each other, he connects them.

“Theon told himself he must be as cold and deliberate as Lord Eddard.”

Theon very clearly tells himself to be like Ned Stark, taking him as an example rather than his own father, even though he made it pretty clear he’s trying to be a Greyjoy. I think along the way he forgot who he was trying to be.

“There had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark’s own bed.”

This is the closest we ever get to Theon taking revenge, because despite his resentful thoughts about Ned and how he got treated by the inhabitants of Winterfell, he never goes back to Winterfell to take revenge. He goes back because he cannot let go, he still wants it to be his home. And it’s remarkable that this first sign of spite only appears after the taking of winterfell was a success, but the inhabitants didn’t quite react the way Theon wanted them to and he can’t seem to feel like Winterfell is indeed his home now “You ought to be drunk with joy. You took Winterfell with fewer than thirty men, a feat to sing of.”

“He only wished he had killed him cleaner. Ned Stark had never needed more than a single blow to take a man’s head.“

This is another instance of Theon directly identifying with Ned Stark, whishing he could have done it like him.

““I am a Greyjoy of Pyke,” Theon reminded him. “The cloak my father swaddled me in bore a kraken, not a direwolf.” “For ten years you have been a ward of Stark.”

“Hostage and prisoner, I call it.” […] “This is craven,” Ser Rodrik said. “To use a child so... this is despicable.” “Oh, I know,” said Theon. “It’s a dish I tasted myself, or have you forgotten? I was ten when I was taken from my father’s house, to make certain he would raise no more rebellions.”

“It is not the same!” Theon’s face was impassive. “The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, that’s true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw.” He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them.”

I think this is the closest to the truth Theon ever comes, at this moment he knows he is doomed, he’s tried to be a stark and failed, he’s tried to be a Greyjoy and failed, he’s tried to be a stark and a Greyjoy at the same time and dug himself a hole so deep that he can’t get out of it anymore. And now he is directly being blamed for his mistakes, specifically the use of a child as a hostage, and his reaction to that is a direct emotional reaction, one that he’s been hiding for most of his life but now that “the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them”, this is a realization that comes after having said what he said, not a controlled thought based on whether or not he is a Stark or a Greyjoy. At this point, he acknowledges that he did indeed suffer from his status as a hostage. And obviously anyone would but Theon has failed time and time again to acknowledge that. When it came to the Starks (Ned in particular) he avoided thinking about how he got affected but rather thought about what they did to him (good and bad). Regardless of what happened, this is the truth of how Theon was affected by it.

“A brother of the Night’s Watch. It meant no crown, no sons, no wife... but it meant life, and life with honor. Ned Stark’s own brother had chosen the Watch, and Jon Snow as well.“

When thinking about joining the nights watch he doesn’t question whether or not his father would approve, that thought doesn’t even come to mind, he thinks about how Ned Stark would approve of it. That is the opinion that matters to him, even if he won’t admit it to himself.

Another instant where it becomes clear, Theon cares about the stark’s values (whereas he doesn’t seem to care much about the Greyjoy’s values, he can tell himself he should, but last time “the thought left him with a bitter taste in his mouth”) is when Maester Lewin wants to have the corpses of the miller’s boys rested in the crypts beneath Winterfell, Theon promptly refuses, because he knows they are not Bran and Rickon.

Conclusion:

Theon’s situation fits all the requirements to get Stockholm syndrome. And when taking into account his home situation, it’d be easy for Theon to see the Starks in a more positive light then if he’d come from a loving carefree home. (Furthermore, his family laid the foundation for most of Theon’s personal issues.) Since he’s got enough bad memories to compare to the Starks, and it’s therefore easier to reason in their favor.

Despite Ned Stark’s apparent coldness, Theon attempts to please him. Even beyond his death, Ned’s approval and values are important to him. He directly identifies with him when he tries to be a good leader “like Ned Stark” in Winterfell. Even when he is trying to be a good Greyjoy he can’t help but hold the Starks ethics in higher regard then the Greyjoy ones.

It’s also important to note that out of all the Starks, Ned is the one Theon can’t help thinking about, he thinks about him even more than about Robb (that’s probably because he was avoiding thinking about him as much as possible because of guilt, guilt that becomes apparent in his dreams). Out of all the Starks, the one Theon identifies with, it is the one who he has most to fear from, the one who ultimately decides whether he lives or dies, the one who would be the one to kill him.

[TemtnF8]

Holy wall of text batman...

The subject alone, with a link to the wiki article of stockholm syndrome, would've been enough to get an answer. The answer is "Yes. Yes he does."

[TrueOrFalse]

I really enjoyed reading this, you made a lot of excellent points here! And I agree that Theon did indeed have Stockholm Syndrome with the Starks. :)

[Lion of the West]

Most likely yes, he did have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

With the starks? No.

With ramsay? Nope.

[INCBlackbird]

With the starks? No.

With ramsay? Nope.

can you defend those claims? I defended mine, it's only fair that if you claim I'm wrong that you at least give a reason why...

[INCBlackbird]

I really enjoyed reading this, you made a lot of excellent points here! And I agree that Theon did indeed have Stockholm Syndrome with the Starks. :)

thanks :) I'm glad you enjoyed it :) and yeah, it's pretty clear to me, always has been!

[INCBlackbird]

Holy wall of text batman...

The subject alone, with a link to the wiki article of stockholm syndrome, would've been enough to get an answer. The answer is "Yes. Yes he does."

well, like I said I argued about it many times before and the argument was never ending because people would come up with different articles about stockholm syndrome that said different things. so I decided to go and find the info in a lot of different books, that seems like the most reliable way to deal with this.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I am sorry but I do not think one can apply such syndrome to kids in such manner.

Otherwise, one can conclude that every adopted child has a Stockholm syndrome.

Imho it's something applies to adults and usually does not require years to develop, but days or hours from the kidnapping moment.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

With the starks? No.

With ramsay? Nope.

I am sorry but I do not think one can apply such syndrome to kids in such manner.

Otherwise, one can conclude that every adopted child has a Stockholm syndrome.

Imho it's something applies to adults and usually does not require years to develop, but days or hours from the kidnapping moment.

Those.

As far as I know Balon gave his son to the Royalists, so technically he made his son a hostage.

[The Wolves]

Theon was not disrespected at Winterfell.

[LordStoneheart]

Pretty sure GRRM is neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, so no.

[fuem]

Pretty sure GRRM is neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, so no.

Lmao

[INCBlackbird]

I am sorry but I do not think one can apply such syndrome to kids in such manner.

Otherwise, one can conclude that every adopted child has a Stockholm syndrome.

Imho it's something applies to adults and usually does not require years to develop, but days or hours from the kidnapping moment.

why do you think it can't apply to kids? I haven't seen that stated anywhere... and then what about steven stayner and shawn hornbeck? both children who got kidnapped and grew up with their captors... both got stockholm syndrome.

Theon is not an adopted child, he's a hostage...

[INCBlackbird]

Theon was not disrespected at Winterfell.

source?

[Lord Reaver]

As far as I know Balon gave his son to the Royalists, so technically he made his son a hostage.

Bull. If I threaten you at gunpoint to give me your car, is that not me stealing your car ?

Ridiculous, as usual.

[The Wolves]

source?

Where's your source?

Cause that Bran example doesn't do it. Bran was not dismissing Theon he was just following Ned's example of asking Maester Luwin's advice. Ned taught his sons to listen to others advice, it's only natural that Bran asked about Maester Luwin's advice because he's the one giving counsel.

Plus Bran probably wanted to hear all opinions on the matter.

[jon stark I]

Well the real question is Balon was a selfish man and he didn't care about the results of hisactions.First of all he rebelled against a united kingdom which had the power of 6 Kingdoms and when he failed in his attempt to crown himself he blames Robert and Ned.It never occurs to him that noone would want a rapist kingdom near their home.

If you ask me Theon understood that he was treated with more affection then even his own family showed to him and after Boltons he understands that Starks were really better then Greyjoy family.

[INCBlackbird]

Where's your source?

Cause that Bran example doesn't do it. Bran was not dismissing Theon he was just following Ned's example of asking Maester Luwin's advice. Ned taught his sons to listen to others advice, it's only natural that Bran asked about Maester Luwin's advice because he's the one giving counsel.

Plus Bran probably wanted to hear all opinions on the matter.

well everything is in the above text but let's list them shall we :

- maester Luwin about Ned having to "gentle" Theon because he came from the iron islands

- "the whole castle knew he was a hostage to his father's good behavior and treated him accordingly"

- the patrick Mallister Incident (even if you believe Ned and the starks didn't do that, you don't believe that the other northmen were all above that right? we have at least one example of someone that wasn't... northmen are not the perfect angels some men believe them to be)

- Ned's only mention of Theon EVER being about using him as the political tool that he was

and that is if you don't believe in my Bran and robb examples....

now, do you have any source that confirms the oppeside otherwise that's just wishfull thinking on your part...

[INCBlackbird]

Well the real question is Balon was a selfish man and he didn't care about the results of hisactions.First of all he rebelled against a united kingdom which had the power of 6 Kingdoms and when he failed in his attempt to crown himself he blames Robert and Ned.It never occurs to him that noone would want a rapist kingdom near their home.

If you ask me Theon understood that he was treated with more affection then even his own family showed to him and after Boltons he understands that Starks were really better then Greyjoy family.

weither the starks were better then the greyjoys is not the issue... what is your reasoning for believing that Theon was treated with affection in winterfell? the only one that even liked him was Robb...

and if he didn't have stockholm syndrome then why did he identify with Ned of all people? he had no reason to identify with him...