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Lion of the West

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  1. Just curious but how old was Jamie at the time of this event?
  2. In addition to this I would like to point out that the current queen is from House Lannister and Robert's heir when the book started had great favoritism towards the Lannisters. Thus a marriage with House Lannister should, reasonably, be very beneficient for the Redwynes and secure them a place at the table with King Joffrey.
  3. The fact that Roose risked an offensive battle and got away, even with losses, means that he totally had the men to risk that. Problem is that since Roose was doing a night march, he would only have realized that when very close to the Lannister army. And that means that he would have to try and wheel his army around, formed up and march away right infront of Tywin's army. That could easily have turned out even worse than the actual battle. If we're going to handwave things we don't like or can easily explain according to our pleasure as "necessary for the plot" or something like that. What is the purpose of this forum? Found this little gem on Roose's actions so far. I don't promise anything but I'll try to return with another and longer quote from the council when Robb settles on the matter. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Roose_Bolton So why are we even discussing this at all then? What's the purpose of discussing character motivation when they only become relevant in the story if the author decides that they are relevant. Shouldn't the fact that we won't have a solid quote one way or another mean that Roose's options, orders etc. are entirely irrelevant?
  4. The problem with this is that Roose becomes passive and relies on Tywin to do what Roose wants while Roose has no way to force Tywin do what Roose wants. Finding defensive terrain is good, if Tywin comes after Roose. If Tywin however is comfortable with his own position he will just sit tight and there will be no battle between them. In fact it will offer Tywin the oppertunity to scout out Roose's position, very possibly find out that most of the heavy horse is gone and send a bird to Jaime to tell him that Robb's horse is not facing Tywin. Do you see the problem with this defensive and passive approach in relation to what Robb's need to distract Tywin and at the same time keep Jaime in the dark about Robb's plan to march on the siege of Riverrun?
  5. Unless I recall Roose followed the orders he had been given by his boss, which was to engage Tywin to keeping Tywin occupied while Robb struck at Jaime at Riverrun. If the battle was unnecessary, Robb should either have left Roose with more clear orders or removed Roose from his command after the battle. The fact that neither happened hints strongly to me that Robb was totally ok with Roose engaging Tywin to keep Tywin's mind and focus away from what Robb was doing. If you want I can try to dig up some quotes for this.
  6. Forgive me, but how isn't this Roose's caution? Roose was in command and he fought the battle cautiously and so could retreat in order. He didn't fall into Tywin's trap with a weak, I think it was the left flank, left flank used as a bait which Tywin hoped an inexperienced Robb bite at.
  7. You do realize that Tywin in the books was given a rather unique oppertunity and being in a pretty unique mindset with his father having turned fully on him? Earlier Tyrion would not have the same chance or felt so abandoned by his father.
  8. But Roose Bolton has been at war before and he is a cautious and careful man who don't seem like a gambler sort of person. So I think that the fact that so much of the Northern army escaped north has more to do with Roose's caution than with anything else. Also note that Tywin isn't very reckless in battle to my knowledge and thus both sides might have played it a bit more cautious than, say, Jaime or Robb would have done in the same situation, hence no dedicated chance for destruction or attempt at finishing off the retreating Northmen.
  9. EDITED: It added nothing tothe discussion. So I remove it. My bad for posting it from the start. Mind if I file this under "Whataboutism"? Has anyone so far bothered to counter these kind of quotes about Tywin when trying to say he's a psycopath or some other diagonsis that the person arguing is totally unqualified to judge?
  10. And please tell me how does Jaime resemble Tywin? The calculating and patient Tywin is similar to the impulsive and reckless Jaime?
  11. Was it? I may have forgotten by how did it help the Lannister cause? Cersei boasts of much and Tywin was right to see possible alliances between people who hates him. However giving the Martells anything would be so stupid its beyond words. Gregor was worth far more to Tywin than the "plotter" in the Sunspear would ever do in favor of the Lannisters. Tywin knows that people who hate him will not do anything to help him and that giving them great asset for a token of positive attention for a second is stupid, harms the Lannisters and achives nothing. The Martells became Tywin's enemies after Elia's death and pretty much nothing that anyone does will change that dynamic for this current generation's time, at least. As a RL example of the kind of scenario you're talking about, not about feuds but about pandering to your opponents: In my country's domestic politics the social democrats and the green party went along with many neo-liberal reforms to break the liberal parties away from the conservatives in the right-wing political bloc and make these liberal parties change sides to the left. What has actually happened has been that the neo-liberal parties have squeeshed the social democrats for neo-liberal reforms before starting to align themselves with their conservative friends again. Can you understand the pointlessness of pandering to people who hate you? While having sex with an entirely different women. There's something called sensitivity and empathy to others and I've heard its good for making relations work. Now of course Robert does not bear all the burden, as he did, as I recall, try to spend time and take Cersei along for various activities such as hunting and socialize with her, which she turned down. And that part is on Cersei as much as having sex with a woman and vocally expressing your desire for another woman is on Robert. Finally I don't think that any relations between Robert and a wife could work. No real and living woman can stand a chance against an idealized fantasy who is always exactly whatever Robert wants her to be. Who has worked pretty damned hard on alienating plenty of people who wanted to love him. Now I also understand that depressed people do self-destrutive things so that's a mitigating aspect of this. Yet at the end it was Robert who drove away Stannis from him, initiated his marriage with Cersei with a solid "you are nothing to me" sign and so on and was on the verge of driving away Eddard as well. Robert is no doubt as complex as any characters in Westeros, but, his sad state is as much his own work as anyone else's.
  12. Problem with this is that Dorne sent an army to the Trident. The rebels smashed the Dornish army at the Trident and the remains fled to King's Landing where Tywin finished them off. Please tell me what ability to project force northward to do harm to the Lannisters in the Westerlands or King's Landing does the Martell possess? As far as I can see, Tywin inflamed the kingdom most likely to be hostile to the new Baratheon dynasty regadless, that is the the weakest and most far away. Cersei granted strength to a power there was every reason to think that she could neither bend by working with or break by force, and then delivered herself into their hands. Do you see the difference between inflaming the distant Dornish and inflaming the ascendning Faith? Partially this is on Tywin, yes, but more on the child murderers in Dorne and on Tyrion's stupidity in trying to make people who hates him, love him, by giving these people stuff to do harm to him. Sending Myrcelle to Dorne was perhaps Tyrion's biggest blunder in his stint as "Vice Hand" and given the Lannister's recent history with the Martells, Tyrion should have known better. That's silly. Tywin had no way to know of these tunnels and Jamie's scheme to freed Tyrion and then let Tyrion go into the tunnels on his own. I agree that it was a poor choice of words and example. My apologises. The problem is that Cersei imitates Tywin's actions but she does not, as far as I can see, understand that Tywin chooses his actions according to what he wants to accomplish and the situation at hand. Hence Cersei is cruel because she thinks that cruelty is strength. Tywin is cruel because he can read a situation or character and see that these cruel acts will have effects beneficient to what he wants. At times these two overlapp, but often they do not. But the point I am making, have been making and will keep making is that Cersei hasn't been given a proper education and training for rule, while Tywin has gained a ton of experience from many years as Hand and Lord Paramount. Hence Cersei would be more successful if Tywin had prepared her to rule.
  13. I am not very interested in Youtube videos but I am interested in what you think on the differentiation between "true" and "false" empathy.
  14. I feel that this don't make much sense. There are always more commoner soldiers around to fight and die than there are nobles. To quote a series on the medieval period about a civil war in my country in the 12th century. "Noble men dies last in war." Which means if so many nobles are falling, there have been even more dramatic losses among the commoner soldiers.
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