Historical and Geographical references in ASOIF

[SerBrandonStark]

I am a really big history buff and I can see where RR Martin gets a lot of his inspiration from. For that reason, I would like to share my theories on this community. For some things, some of you will be thinking duh, and for other things you may find interesting. Some of the analogies aren't perfect, but I don't think that was Martin's intent here goes!

The basis for this conversation is that Westeros, Essos and Sothyros are England, Eurasia and Africa respectively. The size of Westeros is significantly larger than England, but the history is too close for a coincidence.

Westeros:

The Children of the forest resemble the druids and celts of old. They are one with nature, close to animals and had a close association with trees. They did not have very good technology but were thought to be magical.

The first men came with their superior weapons, and conquered the children of the forest. This resembles the roman invasion of Brittany. They conquered the bottom part of the island, but could never tame the top part. So they built Hadrian's wall... About 8,000BC in ASOIF and 200 AD our time.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Hadrians_Wall_map.png ... Cool eh?

After years of peace, the Andal invasion happaned! The fair skinned and fiar haired andals brought their new language and new religion. The Andals are the Anglo Saxons! The Anglo Saxons also invaded england and defeated the celts and romans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_England The Anglo-Saxons, just like the andals were fair haired and fair skinned, and brought their new language. However, celtic is still spoken in some northan parts of the British isles, as well as the Isle of Man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man... ie. The Isle of Faces! This was around 6000 BC asoif time and 700 AD our time.

The Andals controlled Westeros for a long period of time, until the Mighty Aegon the Conqueror took all of Westeros by way of conquest, and established a dynasty. This sounds very similar to William of Normandy ie. France... or.... William the Conqueror! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror This was around 1050 AD our time and 0 ASOIF time.

The War of the 5 kings, as well as the Dance of Dragons + the Blackfyre rebellions resemble a time in English history called the War of Roses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses . Henry the VII resembles Robert Baratheon, or Aegon the unworthy, whichever way you look at it. One of the belligerents in the war Lancaster also happens to sound similar to Lannister...

The North fight for independence is similar to the Scottish fight for independence, geographically and historically. The Red Wedding is very simmilar to the Black Dinner in which a Scottish Earl was killed for the crime of becoming too powerful. http://iainthepict.blogspot.ca/2011/11/earl-of-douglas-and-black-dinner.html

Geographically, King's Landing is placed right where London aught to be. Scotland is where the North is and the Iron Islands where Irelands is, although they seem to more closely resemble Iceland, or Scandanavia is. Vikings. The lord's right was also inspired by this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur ...

There are many more references for Westeros, but I'm going to move on to Essos since I can't remember all of them at the moment.

Essos:

The Valyrian Freehold is inspired by the Roman Empire. Geographically, if Essos is Eurasia, where Valyria used to be is where the peninsula of Italy currently is. The Valyrians built roads everywhere, just like the Romans did, and the language that is currently spoken in all the free cities is a bastardised version of High Valyrian (ie. Latin). The bastardised languages in our world are Italian, French and Spanish :P. Only the nobolity or the learned know High Valyrian nowdays... Also, the fall of Rome, just as the doom of Valyria is subject to some debate and speculation.

Old Ghis is a very interesting reference, because it is not perfect, but simply means to stand for what existed before Valyria, ie. Rome. There are three countries that I see very strong refernce to. The first country I thought about was the Carthaginian empire. When Rome was rising, they were their biggest competition in terms of military power and trade. In the books, Valyria and Ghis fought 5 wars until the Valyrians finally vanquished Old Ghis and sowed their land with salt so nothing will grow there again. The Carthaginians and Rome fought the Punic wars, until the Romans finally vanquished Carthage and sowed their land with salt so nothing would grow there again.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War Check it out yo! http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Old_Ghis The references that are made are the fact that Old Ghis built pyramids (Egypt) and that they fought in lockstep formation (Greek Phalanx).

Below I am going to list a several unrelated references that I believe Martin found inspiration from geographically and historically.

• The Dorthraki are something like the Mongols and or Huns
  
• The Colossus of Bravos was inspired by the Colossus of Rhodes
  
• Quarth is similar to Constantinople (triple walls)
  
• Valyrian Steel is just like Damascus Steel, the method of production is now lost or forgotten
  
• Sothyros is Africa
  

There are many more, so feel free to comment and share :)

[SerBrandonStark]

Also, Hot Pie is Queen Elizabeth.

[SerBrandonStark]

Bump

[Trickrs]

Well... it had be discussed a lot, there are numerous threads about the War of the Rose.

Just a correction, English and German aren't bastard latin :P

[SerBrandonStark]

Well... it had be discussed a lot, there are numerous threads about the War of the Rose.

Just a correction, English and German aren't bastard latin :P

Cool, I changed it. The War of Roses was one tiny paragraph! Was the rest of it just as obvious?

[Lopsang]

Essos:

The Valyrian Freehold is inspired by the Roman Empire. Geographically, if Essos is Eurasia, where Valyria used to be is where the peninsula of Italy currently is. The Valyrians built roads everywhere, just like the Romans did, and the language that is currently spoken in all the free cities is a bastardised version of High Valyrian (ie. Latin). The bastardised languages in our world are Italian, French and Spanish :P. Only the nobolity or the learned know High Valyrian nowdays... Also, the fall of Rome, just as the doom of Valyria is subject to some debate and speculation.

Old Ghis is a very interesting reference, because it is not perfect, but simply means to stand for what existed before Valyria, ie. Rome. There are three countries that I see very strong refernce to. The first country I thought about was the Carthaginian empire. When Rome was rising, they were their biggest competition in terms of military power and trade. In the books, Valyria and Ghis fought 5 wars until the Valyrians finally vanquished Old Ghis and sowed their land with salt so nothing will grow there again. The Carthaginians and Rome fought the Punic wars, until the Romans finally vanquished Carthage and sowed their land with salt so nothing would grow there again.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War Check it out yo! http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Old_Ghis The references that are made are the fact that Old Ghis built pyramids (Egypt) and that they fought in lockstep formation (Greek Phalanx).

1. Valryria is probably more like Greece. See: map of Valyria, map of Greece. The things about Rome you cited can still apply to the ancient Greece basically the same. Perhaps, it could even parallel Byzantium, Greece after Roman consolidation there for a couple of centuries.

2. I LOVE Carthage! Hannibal in particular! I'm glad you brought it up. However, if Valryia is like Greece, Old Ghis may not be Carthage. Perhaps there are other wars in which the subjugated had salt poured on their arable land. If Valyria is Byzantium, I'd say it's possible the war they fought with Old Ghis (a powerhouse to the east) could parallel the war Byzantines fought with Sassanid Persians (a powerhouse to the east). Byzantine never subjugated the Sassanids though, and the fighting was for decades IIRC.

[SerBrandonStark]

1. Valryria is probably more like Greece. See: map of Valyria, map of Greece. The things about Rome you cited can still apply to the ancient Greece basically the same. Perhaps, it could even parallel Byzantium, Greece after Roman consolidation there for a couple of centuries.

2. I LOVE Carthage! Hannibal in particular! I'm glad you brought it up. However, if Valryia is like Greece, Old Ghis may not be Carthage. Perhaps there are other wars in which the subjugated had salt poured on their arable land. If Valyria is Byzantium, I'd say it's possible the war they fought with Old Ghis (a powerhouse to the east) could parallel the war Byzantines fought with Sassanid Persians (a powerhouse to the east). Byzantine never subjugated the Sassanids though, and the fighting was for decades IIRC.

Thanks for the comment! Vylria does kind of look like Greece. However, the Valyrian roads, high Valyrian and the basterdized versions of Valyrian point to Rome. Perhaps it was an inspiration from both.

[Lopsang]

Thanks for the comment! Vylria does kind of look like Greece. However, the Valyrian roads, high Valyrian and the basterdized versions of Valyrian point to Rome. Perhaps it was an inspiration from both.

Well, true, ancient Greece did not have as many roads as Rome. But here are some sources I found for Greek roads after a very quick glance online:

This one is about some road pilgrims took to Delphi, to the oracle. It may have just been one such road in the Greek empire; it probably was.

This picture shows the layout of Greek roads. Not as sophisticated as Roman roads, but it was more than just dirt.

As for High Valyrian/Latin, the same could be said for High Valyrian/Greek. European languages are romance languages, but romance is derived from roman, and the Romans not only spoke Latin, which is influenced by Greek, but some would have spoken Greek as well, especially after Roman conquests in Greece when they brought back Greek slaves to Italy. In short, both languages affect current romance languages, so the parallel works for Greek or Latin, I'd gander.

The road argument does work better for Rome, but Greece was not without roads of its own. The Latin/High Valyrian and Greek/High Valyrian argument still might even work better for Rome, but it still works for both really. However, this is why I also considered Byzantine as a possible parallel to Greece. I think that's the most likely thing; an amalgamation of sorts between Greece and Rome. It has Roman traits of politics/economics/language/social structure which Valyria shares similarities to, but is also geographically almost identical to Valyria. Since the geography of Greece and Valyria are so identical, I lean towards that being the case.

[Archmaester Drew]

GRRM certainly was inspired by these historical cultures and events, but there is no one-to-one correspondence of Earth and Planetos. For example, Valyria is based on Rome, but also the Greek city states (Freeholds). The Old Gods are more akin to animism than anything, not Celtic druids. :)

[Lopsang]

• Quarth is similar to Constantinople (triple walls)

Since you brought up Quarth, I want to expound on similarities between the Free Cities and Ancient Greece. (I know I'm bringing up Greece again, but it's what I've studied dang it!)

The dynamics between the Free Cities seem to emulate, perhaps loosely, the Peloponnesian Wars. They certainly share similarities to Greece. There are constantly shifting alliances being broken and declared thought what seems to be a main, drawn out, long conflict occuring mainly between some major powers (Sparta vs Athens and Myr vs Tyrosh/Lys). I don't know enough about either conflict to make many direct comparisons, but if anybody is interested it might be worth pouring over. I've been reading the aptly named Peloponnesian Wars by Donald Kagan if anybody wants to look into it more but they have no prior knowledge. The only thing that ever united Sparta and Athens (granted, this is before the Peloponnesian wars) was the threat of Persia. Similarly, Dany united the free cities against her (or at least Quarth and the Volantenes).

[Trickrs]

The Free Cities are more based on the Italian city states.

Braavos itself is pure Venice.

Though Volantis have some elements from greek democracy.

[SerBrandonStark]

Since you brought up Quarth, I want to expound on similarities between the Free Cities and Ancient Greece. (I know I'm bringing up Greece again, but it's what I've studied dang it!)

The dynamics between the Free Cities seem to emulate, perhaps loosely, the Peloponnesian Wars. They certainly share similarities to Greece. There are constantly shifting alliances being broken and declared thought what seems to be a main, drawn out, long conflict occuring mainly between some major powers (Sparta vs Athens and Myr vs Tyrosh/Lys). I don't know enough about either conflict to make many direct comparisons, but if anybody is interested it might be worth pouring over. I've been reading the aptly named Peloponnesian Wars by Donald Kagan if anybody wants to look into it more but they have no prior knowledge. The only thing that ever united Sparta and Athens (granted, this is before the Peloponnesian wars) was the threat of Persia. Similarly, Dany united the free cities against her (or at least Quarth and the Volantenes).

Good point mate. It was probably inspired by both, just like Ghis was inspired by a few countries.

[Lopsang]

Good point mate. It was probably inspired by both, just like Ghis was inspired by a few countries.

WEll, it's possible we're all contriving these. That's the cool thing about history. Mark Twain said "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes." You can beautifully compare a ton of things in Planetos with human history.

[Archmaester Drew]

The Free Cities are more based on the Italian city states.

Braavos itself is pure Venice.

Though Volantis have some elements from greek democracy.

The Free cities are now more like Italian city-states, but the Valyrian Freeholds were more like Greek city-states before the Doom. :)

[Lopsang]

The Free cities are now more like Italian city-states, but the Valyrian Freeholds were more like Greek city-states before the Doom. :)

Oh my God! Your signature is that quote in my above post! Did you just add that?!

[Trickrs]

The Free cities are now more like Italian city-states, but the Valyrian Freeholds were more like Greek city-states before the Doom. :)

There wasn't "freeholds" there was THE freehold which was governed by a lot of people.

[Archmaester Drew]

Oh my God! Your signature is that quote in my above post! Did you just add that?!

Nope, it's been there all along. :cheers:

[Aetta]

I can feel a celtic vibe from the CoTF, but not in the role of druids.  Maybe the greenseers as druids, but I see the overal race of the CoTF as more comparable to the Sidhe.  Note that in modern times, a fairy elicits thoughts of a diminuitive sprite-though the Sidhe were not originally described as diminuitive.

Thus the Old Gods would be the Tuatha De, Dagda, Danu et al.

The Others=Fomorians

First Men=Gaels/Milesians

Then, on the big island:

Andals=Christian Anglos

Valyrians=Vikings, Danelaw, Normans

Rhoynar=Angevins...hmmmm, hafta think on this one...

You could play around with it a bit, of course, and actually enjoy doing it if you're a history geek.  I enjoy thinking of the First Men in a sort of Pre-Roman, Pre-Iron Age Briton, speaking the old (Welsh or gaelic) tongue. and the Andals making headway as the Saxons eventually did.  And ultimately, the monarchs in ASOIAF will intermarry as the Targaryans hesitantly did, and join houses as the Angevins, Normans, Britons and Saxons ultimately did.

PS.  The Scottish Wildlings: once they get beyond (Hadrian's) Wall, are not the Picts of old, they are able to assimilate and who knows?  Maybe Val is our literary Edith-Matilda.

[Hugorfonics]

I see a lot of 3 kingdoms China. It's roughly the same size with vast lands of different climates and cultures, there's also the great wall.

Liu Bei and Dany are the dragon at birth, who wind up actually waking the dragon, with elite generals calling themselves blood of their blood and swearing death on the same day; All the while fighting for your ancestors throne to the benifit of the people.

Stark and Wu also share many similarities.

[dRagonese]

Almost everything about the dothraki is straight out of the history of the Mongols, even the way the west talks about the dothraki is very similar to how Western Europe looked at the Mongols. The way they are trained to fire a bow from horseback and rite down to their clothing is 100 percent based on them. the idea of vaes dothrak is actually seen in Mongolian history, it was a place where many khans could bring their people when something important was to be decided and even warring party's would not fight in the city. Also how drogo killed viserys is a nod to how Mongols would never spill royal blood, whenever a royal was to be killed even a royal from other nations the Mongols would kill them in special ways as to not spill any Royal blood, there were times when people were sewn into bags and then weighted down and thrown in rivers, or beat with something soft enough as to not break skin but it would break internal organs. So viserys getting killed with his golden crown was a cool nod to that little piece of history, also a very blatant similarity..... Khan/Khal.