Sullen Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Just now, daccu65 said: I think this is simply a point at which we disagree. I believe that the Vale declaring for Renley would have caused the Lannister forces in the Riverlands to realize their position was untenable. Vale or no Vale, they were still doomed, and they realized it. There was simply no way they could surrender. They weren't sure they could beat the Stark-Tully forces alone, Renly's host was something impossible for them to defeat. Until Renly is assassinated, and even after, the Lannister camp only thinks of delaying the inevitable, and as we can see through Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime, they didn't think they could win against either Renly OR Stannis after him. Their precarious situation forces them to consider desperate measures, such as the alliance between Myrcella and Trystane, and we even see genuine affection between Tyrion and Cersei the moment they seem slightly less doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daccu65 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Sullen said: Vale or no Vale, they were still doomed, and they realized it. There was simply no way they could surrender. Agreed. Our disagreement seems to be that I believe Littlefinger, by getting Lysa to take a side, could have sped things up a little; and he didn't want things sped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neolaina Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I wouldn't think Littlefinger was directly in cahoots with anyone, or rather, aiming to support anyone specifically. He was working all of the angles, attempting to sow discord. I'd imaging he was courting the Reach in some way, given his supremely quick acquisition of them as allies for the Lannisters. He explicitly kept the Vale locked up to deny any of the other parties from acquiring them as allies, which did have an effect on the realm, given one of the seven powers was basically locked away, refusing to pick a side. So, he has links, and sets up scenarios that allow him to keep profiting. But that doesn't quite answer the question. Littledragon made the statement that LF would have never been given Harrenhal under Renly. I'm inclined to agree, given his reasoning. He needs discord to flourish, and it's very likely such a situation wouldn't have occurred under Renly. And I believe that feeds into what we already recognize about LF: He simply thrives in chaos. Supporting Renly would have quickly put an end to that chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I think Petyr was backing Renly... Perhaps Varys did not tell Petyr; perhaps Renly did... Eddard XIII, Game 47I am thinking that Petyr was in cahoots with Renly and Loras. Prologue, Clash Tyrion VIII, Clash 38 Oh I agree and I am sure Petyr and Renly had come to an arrangement before Renly left. Baelish has nothing to declare at the start of the war. Yes he could bring in the Vale but playing his hand too soon would be a mistake. If there had been no shadowbaby Renly would have defeated Stannis and marched on King's Landing. Petyr would have the Gold Cloaks turn their cloaks and open the gates and Renly has King's Landing and the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Anyone else think that Baelish was using the Antler Men or Gold Cloaks to open the gates for Renly which would nicely parallel Pycelle opening the gates for Tywin in Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: Anyone else think that Baelish was using the Antler Men or Gold Cloaks to open the gates for Renly which would nicely parallel Pycelle opening the gates for Tywin in Robert's Rebellion. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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