The Fattest Leech

Nymeria is poised to return

116 posts in this topic

I have updated lots to the main post, and some to the previous Val and her connections post just before this one.

I did, however, find this great detail that I added to the main post in regards to Odin and his sacrificed eye and water connections. I added this to the main post with the other updated:

Odin write up with the Eagle and the eye will show Odin has only one eye, which blazes like the sun. His other eye he traded for a drink from the Well of Wisdom, and gained immense knowledge. So again, we Jon as the sun, we have water connections to wisdom, which is also a connection to Nymeria with the water and wisdom, or "wise woman", as referred to Dalla and Val as she replaces her dead sister and repeats the wisdom.

  • Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen."
  • "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
    "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind.

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I forgot to mention, I am going to start focusing next on Jon dying, the coming back then becoming king of ??? and how Val and her transition from Nymeria into a Volva healer then Jon's companion will happen.

Now is the time for conversation for what I have so far :cheers:

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One more for the day before I have to disappear again for a little while. This is something I wrote before that I want to add here. Some bits may be repeats, but I will edit them in later:

So why did Val return to the Wall dressed in fine white garb? Because he sent her on a proper mission and had faith (summoned) she would return.

  • Francis Melville describes a spae-wife as a type of elf in The Book of Faeries.

No taller than a human finger, fairy spae wives are usually dressed in the clothes of a peasant. However, when properly summoned, the attire changes from common to magnificent: blue cloak with a gem-lined collar and black lambskin hood lined with catskin, calfskin boots, and catskin gloves. Like human spae wives, they can also predict the future, through runes, tea leaves and signs generated by natural phenomena, and are good healers. They are said to be descended from the erectors of the standing stones.

  • A spákona or spækona “spá-woman”[3] (with an Old English cognate, spæwīfe[4] is a specialised vǫlva; a "seer, one who sees",
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

    "Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
    They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
    "Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.
 
  • The standing stones are described as very similar to the ring of nine weirwoods north of the wall where Jon took his NW vows.
    • Their size can vary considerably, but their shape is generally uneven and squared, often tapering towards the top.
    • Standing stones are usually difficult to date, but pottery, and/or pottery shards found underneath some in Atlantic Europe connects them with the Beaker people.
      • The Beaker people lived in the Bronze age and were once scattered all through Europe. (kinda like the CotF)
    • Finds from a vǫlva's grave in Köpingsvik, Öland. There is an 82 cm long wand of iron with bronze details and a unique model of a house on the top. There is also a pitcher from Persia or Central Asia, and a West European bronze bowl. Dressed in a bear pelt, she had received a ship burial with both human and animal sacrifice.
    • It is difficult to draw a line between the aristocratic lady and the wandering vǫlva, but Old Norse sources present the vǫlva as more professional and she went from estate to estate selling her spiritual services.[9]
  • A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

    Perhaps it was all in the knowing. They had ridden past the end of the world; somehow that changed everything. Every shadow seemed darker, every sound more ominous. The trees pressed close and shut out the light of the setting sun. A thin crust of snow cracked beneath the hooves of their horses, with a sound like breaking bones. When the wind set the leaves to rustling, it was like a chilly finger tracing a path up Jon's spine. The Wall was at their backs, and only the gods knew what lay ahead.
    The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."
    When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

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AAAHHH! I am so excited. I referred to this in my main post and I am so excited to see it here. George changes the story along the way and the 91' outline means little.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/531sdu/spoilers_extended_asoiaf_archives_sample_chapters/

I am updating the main post to reflect new information.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
spelling and stuff

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Let's get into Jon and the mutiny, PT1:

"It's not the walls that make a lord, it's the man." - Stannis to Jon

"No wall can keep you safe," his [Jon's] father had told him once, as they walked the walls of Winterfall. "A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it." - Storm, Jon IV

I want to touch on this topic because I will refer to it later on. Please feel free to add any alternative opinions to this matter because that is what we are here to do.

To be clear and upfront, I do believe that Jon was wrongly stabbed by his brothers, that if he was breaking any vows is still to be seen (the NW has forgotten its purpose). I do admit that the issue of Jon interfering with politics and personal family matters is a negative one, however, as you'll see, Thorne, Marsh and Yarwyck were messing with Southron politics in the Nights Watch way before Jon was made LC.

We should also keep George's editor, Anne Groell, words in mind as we parse out these clues. It is a three tier reveal:

  • The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/63456/how-much-does-george-r-r-martin-foreshadow/63468#63468

We are also told time and again that the wall is not what it used to be, going from a high honored position filled with noblemen and knights, to currently filled with thieves and rapists and criminals thanks to the Targs setting up the King's Guard. But more importantly, the Nights Watch has forgotten its purpose:

  • "Spare me your but's, boy," Lord Mormont interrupted. "I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"
    "Who will," chimed the talkative raven. "Who will."    <<< Jon will when he learns better and the man is born.
  • [Mormont] "We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"
  • Dance: Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. "The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath."
    • This is a perfect example of misinformation that is happening right now. THE WALL WAS NOT BUILT TO KEEP OUT WILDLINGS! Jon did not break that oath. The Free Folk are part of the realms of men the NW is sworn to protect.
  • The Wall was made to defend the realms of the First Men, and the men of the Night's Watch have reportedly defended the Wall against Others and other monsters for eight thousand years since the end of the Long Night. Wiki Source.
  • World: Unique in the Seven Kingdoms is the Night's Watch, the sworn brotherhood that has defended the Wall over centuries and millennia, born in the aftermath of the Long Night, the generation-long winter that brought the Others down on the realms of men and nearly put an end to them.
    • The wall was built to keep the Others out! Not Free Folk.
    • The maesters in the World Book say over and over that the Others were probably not real, which spreads the falsehood of the Faith/7 and negates the purpose of Northern culture and the Watch.
      • World: The history of the Night's Watch is a long one. Tales still tell of the black knights of the Wall and their noble calling. But the Age of Heroes is long done, and the Others have not shown themselves in thousands of years, if indeed they ever existed.

Also, I have a feeling that Marsh and company may have been under a spell of some sort because they were acting very strange with their tears and this: "The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me." 

  • Were they under a spell?
    • A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

      The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
    • ASOS/SAM V: I have no place here, Sam thought anxiously, when her red eyes fell upon him. Someone had to help Maester Aemon up the steps. Don't look at me, I'm just the maester's steward. The others were contenders for the Old Bear's command, all but Bowen Marsh, who had withdrawn from the contest but remained castellan and Lord Steward. Sam did not understand why Melisandre should seem so interested in him.
  • Was Ser Patrek trying to steal Val at swordpoint and Wun Wun said "NO" because he knew Val belonged to Jon already?
    • STORM, Jon II: "Good," King Stannis said, "for the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess." Perhaps Jon had ridden with the free folk too long; he could not help but laugh. "Your Grace," he said, "captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women. Whoever weds her had best be prepared to climb in her tower window and carry her off at swordpoint . . ."
  • DANCE, Jon X: ...Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. Jon judged that wise. He did not like the way some of the queen's knights were looking at the steward, particularly Ser Patrek of King's Mountain. That one wants to shed a bit of blood, he thought. He is looking for some provocation.
  • DANCE, Jon XIII: Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men … "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen's men." The dead man was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him.
Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon...."Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him." Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed.

THE GUILTY PARTIES: Alliser Thorne has had an issue with the Starks since AGOT, and actually since Robert's Rebellion had him sent to the wall. Thorne, Marsh, and Yarwyck had been plotting against Jon for a while... way before Jon was even Lord Commander. If anything, these guys sitting in the tub of hot water are trying to sway the election to gain political favor in Kings Landing. They are playing at southron politics.

 

  • A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

Three-Finger Hobb had promised the brothers roast haunch of mammoth that night, maybe in hopes of cadging a few more votes. If that was his notion, he should have found a younger mammoth, Sam thought, as he pulled a string of gristle out from between his teeth. Sighing, he pushed the food away.
There would be another vote shortly, and the tensions in the air were thicker than the smoke. Cotter Pyke sat by the fire, surrounded by rangers from Eastwatch. Ser Denys Mallister was near the door with a smaller group of Shadow Tower men. Janos Slynt has the best place, Sam realized, halfway between the flames and the drafts. He was alarmed to see Bowen Marsh beside him, wan-faced and haggard, his head still wrapped in linen, but listening to all that Lord Janos had to say. When he pointed that out to his friends, Pyp said, "And look down there, that's Ser Alliser whispering with Othell Yarwyck."
  • A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

[Tywin] "There is no need. The Night's Watch is a pack of thieves, killers, and baseborn churls, but it occurs to me that they could prove otherwise, given proper discipline. If Mormont is indeed dead, the black brothers must choose a new Lord Commander."
Pycelle gave Tyrion a sly glance. "An excellent thought, my lord. I know the very man. Janos Slynt."
Tyrion liked that notion not at all. "The black brothers choose their own commander," he reminded them. "Lord Slynt is new to the Wall. I know, I sent him there. Why should they pick him over a dozen more senior men?"
"Because," his father said, in a tone that suggested Tyrion was quite the simpleton, "if they do not vote as they are told, their Wall will melt before it sees another man."
...
"In closing, ask Marsh to pass along His Grace's fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant, Lord Janos Slynt."
  • A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

"When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."
"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."
...
"What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.
"Bathing. But don't let me spoil your plotting." Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.
 
Sidenote: How funny will it be if Thorne, a Targ loyalist, finds out Jon's heritage after he tries to kill him:lol:
  • Ser Alliser only said, "You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I'll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You'd best pray that it's a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don't stay dead … and they remember. I'm coming back, Lord Snow."
"I pray you do." Jon would never count Ser Alliser Thorne amongst his friends, but he was still a brother.

So Jon gets the curious pink letter, then he calls everyone to Shieldhall, an incredibly symbolic place as read about on pg 2, he reads the letter, declares his intentions, then Jon sees a few key people slip out: Melisandre and the queen's knights, Yarwyck and Marsh. Tormund arrives just in time to help control the rowdy crowd and calls for mead, and then Jon excuses himself to go see Selyse because he realizes he should have told her first.

  • Two quick things that stand out as oddly missing in the entire situation... 1) George's love and need to describe in full detail the clothes, chainmail, cloaks, gloves, etc that people are wearing in important situations, and 2) the same need to describe in precise detail how the letter is written, such as ink color, is it flaky ink, handwriting type, etc.

The smash up between Wun Wun and Ser Patrek is happening and Jon thinks this:

  • "Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream."

Then Jon is stabbed and he has a three-fold experience that parallels both his blood father Rhaegar, his brother Robb, and his brother Bran (next post). Jon's last word is "Ghost" because he is calling out to Ghost most likely to complete his first conscious warging into his direwolf. It is widely held that Robb called to Greywind to warg his wolf when he was mutiny stabbed at the Red Wedding. At this point in the story, Jon is only now accepting that he is more like a wildling, that he is a warg and that he and Ghost are one and he knows Ghost will keep him safe. A loyal Raynald Westerling did release Greywind at Robb's mutiny just as someone could have released Ghost at Jon's mutiny. More and more I feel like the entire Red Wedding was foreshadowing for this main event.

Jon does briefly think of the life lesson that he teaches Arya about how to stab and kill someone because he is currently being stabbed and "killed". Arya herself even calls it a lesson as she talks about it with her dad and then again as she stabs and kills that horse boy who tries to grab her to turn her in. The lesson is important because we know Odin sacrificed himself for knowledge.

Jon also parallels Rhaegar by calling out, "Ghost", as Rhaegar called out, "Lyanna", when he died (confirmed on the app).

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …
  • A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

"Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself . . . if not for me, for Jeyne."
"Jeyne?" Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. "Mother," he said, "Grey Wind . . ."
"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here."
  • Another curious connection between the Red Wedding and the mutiny is the use of a "spice person" to help arrange it. Sybell Spicer helped arrange the Red Wedding which got Robb killed, while Melisandre is repeatedly associated with spices, scents, smokes, and powders throughout the story. ASOS/Davos III ,and ADWD/Jon III, and ADWD/Jon VI to name a few.
 
  • A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

[Dany's vision of Rhaegar] Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

But, is Jon dead-dead, or just hurt? I am in favor of just hurt. Why, you ask? Well, there are a few options or some combo of either. Here is a relevant option:

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

All the same, the wildling princess was not beloved of her gaolers. She scorned them all as "kneelers," and had thrice attempted to escape. When one man-at-arms grew careless in her presence she had snatched his dagger from its sheath and stabbed him in the neck. Another inch to the left and he might have died.

Because we don't know what Jon was wearing in the way of layers of boiled leather, possible chainmail, etc. Also because not all stab wounds are lethal, and medieval operations were better then we think, but the in-world reason to think Jon may be unconcious is he has two healers there with him, Val and Morna, and Borroq the skinchanger who calls Jon, "brother."

Ok, I know Jon is part Targ and he needs fire, I can accept that he may be dead-dead and the wildlings try and burn his body, and that will unlock his dragon puberty. Fire rituals were ingrained into both the dragon symbolism and the north of wall First Men. Both burned their dead on a pyre. Jon is that bridge so fire may be very required.

I do lean towards Jon having a pyre north of the wall at the weirwood grove where he took his NW vows. I think this will let Bran see what is going on and maybe to enter Jon's mind to talk to him and take him on an exploratory history lesson about his paternity. The standing stones of the post two above explains the symbolism between the grove of nine weirwoods and actual cultural history.

For reference, the vows:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

 

Continued in the next post ^_^

 

MAYBE spoiler. Don't read the next lines unless you daaaarrre! :drool:
Heheehee :devil:, Oh George, you devil!
  •  

    ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
    GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

 

 
Edited by The Fattest Leech
added a few links... finally! :)

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Let's get into Jon and the mutiny, PT2, continued from above:

Jon also mirrors Bran when Bran is warged into Hodor and is attacked by the wights outside of Bloodraven's cave. Compare these scenes below. Bran asks some very interesting questions about his possible death and warging experience and this is just a few chapters before Jon and his mutiny stabbing, Bran even thinks of his family in the mess because he mistakes someone for his sister Arya like Jon did with Jeyne Poole.

Jon literally sacrificed his life to save the wildlings, something which he sees as important to the future of Westeros and humanity and even desires one. :

  • A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

    The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.
    Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?
The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there.
  • "Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him." Could this be a clue that someone released Ghost and that is one reason Jon called to him when he did? Did Jon see Ghost running to the rescue and call to him to actively make his first conscious warging? A loyal Raynald Westerling did release Greywind at Robb's mutiny.
  • "a cloud of ravens pouring from the cave." Could this be a hint that the men loyal to Jon-Odin will come to his defense when he is stabbed? The NW are crows, but the raven is the symbol associated with Odin and the cave could be Shieldhall.
  • "he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that." Could this be a hint that Val or Melisandre and the fire will have an immediate impact after the mutiny?

 

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …
  •  

Then compare Jon to what he has already experienced with his first Odin-like eye sacrifice where after this, back at Castle Black, he realizes that the wildlings are not as "bad" as people claim. Jon's second Odin-like sacrifice is the big mutiny stabbing, but here is the first sacrifice for knowledge. :

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon II

... And still the eagle clung to his face, its talons tearing at him as it flapped and shrieked and pecked. The world turned upside down in a chaos of feathers and horseflesh and blood, and then the ground came up to smash him.
The next he knew, he was on his face with the taste of mud and blood in his mouth and Ygritte kneeling over him protectively, a bone dagger in her hand. He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. "My eye," he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.
"It's only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some."
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"
Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."
"Har!" Tormund snorted again. "You hear that, Toregg? Stay away from this one. I have one daughter, don't need another." Shaking his head, the wildling chief ducked back inside his tent.

With this information, it is within reason to say that with the wildlings (who outnumber the NW 5 to 1 per Jon) and still most of the NW brothers still loyal to Jon, and the fact that everyone sees Val as a princess or high ranking, it is plausible that Val will come to aid Jon after he is stabbed. I am sure if this happens then Morna and Tormund will be there as well to assist.

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."
The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."
"It is known," Jhiqui agreed.
 
In a way, both girls are correct. One is Lysene and the other Dothraki. The common lesson in this tale is that a moon and sun will come together and birth a dragon. This is another obvious overlap with Daenerys and what happened to her out on the Dothraki sea with her Drogo pyre and her baby dragons.
We have also seen the many links to Val and her being a moon maiden figure (and healer and snow bear and warrior).
  • Ygritte was the first moon for duty, Val is the second moon for love and "prophecy", just as Elia was for duty and Lyanna was for love/prophecy.

 

Pasting this here from another thread so I can go back and edit it in:

There was a plan to play politics and try to influence the choosing of the LC at Castle Black a long time ago. Some of these conspirators openly hated Jon and Starks, some hated being at the wall, some hated Jon because they are misunderstanding the meaning of the Night's Watch purpose. As described by a few others, there was talk of plans to try and control the decision making process. Jon was able to get rid of many of the four conspirators, except for the one that has the literal description of being duplicitous- the Pomegranate.

What it seems some posters are doing is lumping every death together in one big pile without realizing that Catelyn, Beric, the Hound, Varamyr, etc. all die for different reasons. Details matter. Some are linked to others for the purpose of foreshadowing within their own sub-plot, others are only linked because it gives a glimpse of just one aspect. George describes three other (symbolically connected) deaths that directly link to Jon almost the exact same way each, down to the body positions and last words.

Jon and Catelyn's death are not comparable. Jon and Cat had no connection in life, why would they have one in death?

There was someone else who died at the Red Wedding that does have a deep connection to Jon on both a personal, bonded level and also has a direwolf and warg abilities. Robb is the death connection... but only for the cause and beginning.

Jon's own mutiny stabbing is related to the main characters in his physical life- Rhaegar, Bran, Robb. Jon honors Eddard by way of his life teachings. Jon is keeping Ned's spirit alive that way. One of those ways is shown in his conversation with Stannis about how Jon agrees he wants to repopulate the Gift with wildlings, because repopulating the Gift was something Ned (and Benjen) wanted to do.

Rhaegar= the past at the Trident, which also carries on Jon's connection to water. Rhaegar dies, falls to his knees which would be into mud at the Trident, and whispers his last word, "Lyanna". (yes, that has been confirmed)

Robb= the present. Robb is also mutiny arrowed/stabbed like Jon, but Robb has a wolf to warg into and Cat tells Robb to go to Greywind. Robb's last word is "Greywind." Greywind was also released by Robb's squire, Raynald, and chances are Ghost was released as well and Jon sees him and has his first conscious warg into Ghost as Jon's last word is, "Ghost."

Bran= the future. There is the scene outside BR's cave where Bran saw himself laying face down in the snow (as Jon did when he was stabbed), and Bran saw Summer defending his body (as Ghost probably is), and then Bran gets help from a female who is connected to the old gods (of which Jon realizes Ghost is also of, and Jon realizes he and Ghost are one). Bran at this time is looking at his body and wonders what could happen to it, and that is when Leaf shows up to help. We also saw this foreshadowing of someone (a female) coming to help Jon when he was wounded when Jon was attacked by the eagle that came for his eyes, and Jon was face down in the mud, and Ygritte came to stand over his body to defend it with her bone knife. Well, there is another woman at Castle Black with a bone knife, and a connection to Ghost, and many reasons to defend John at this time during his second fall into snow.

Even Melisandre sees a man-wolf connection:

  • The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.
 
Edited by The Fattest Leech
added more info

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Will allowing the Free Folk/wildlings through the wall work long term?

I just answered this question on another thread, but I wanted to add it here because I was able to find some updated info about George and his thoughts on immigration. I will paste it here and add some of this info to the main post. Thanks:

On 9/23/2016 at 7:04 PM, Oakhearts head said:

Assuming Eddard or Robb Stark were still in power when the threat of the Others became more readily apparent, and assuming those in the Night's Watch (Jon Snow, maybe Jeor Mormont) came to a similar resolution as Jon did in A Dance with Dragons, would the Starks and other prominent Northern lords be able to come to a reconciliation with the Night's Watch? Something tells me the Umbers and the Wildlings would not be great neighbours.

Yes, for several reasons both in-story and in real life (Ugh, I hate that place:ack:)

"A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing."- George interview here

First, if Jon or Jeor came to Ned and told them of the findings and new information, I do believe he would have listened because the Starks have always been a friend to the NW, and vice versa. Ned and/or Robb would trust Jon and/or Joer, or almost any LC from the Watch. Plus, the story starts with finding the direwolves, which have not been seen for 200 years (coincinding with (NOT) Good Queen Alysanne sealing off magic from the north), and with Gared fleeing the NW. This alone makes Ned wonder what is happening.

Plus, there is a ton of miscommunication and mis-translation between the Free Folk/wildlings and those south of the wall. The most common is the miscommunication on the term "stealing", and what it actually means. Ned doesn't even get it right:

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."
"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.
"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

 

Same with Jon and Bran, at first, but after Jon's time with them he realizes that they are not what he was taught. Same with Bran in the opening of the story. Southroners are taught to fear wildlings:

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.
But the man they found bound hand and foot to the holdfast wall awaiting the king's justice was old and scrawny, not much taller than Robb. He had lost both ears and a finger to frostbite, and he dressed all in black, the same as a brother of the Night's Watch, except that his furs were ragged and greasy.
 

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Craster's sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. He looked to be a powerful man, though well into the winter of his days now, his mane of hair grey going to white. A flat nose and a drooping mouth gave him a cruel look, and one of his ears was missing. So this is a wildling. Jon remembered Old Nan's tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls. Craster seemed to be drinking a thin yellow beer from a chipped stone cup. Perhaps he had not heard the stories.
  • Sidenote: Yes, Craster is a nasty old man who commits abominations, but he also does not fit what is taught about wildlings in general.

 

And we learn later, if we hadn't figured it out by now, that even though there are some real assholes amongst the wildlings, they really are not that different from those south of the wall. Look at the horror Tywin released with Gregor Clegane as just one of many examples of southron atrocities. Raping, piliging, stealing lands, horses and other goods, as well as burning the crops of the smallfolk (which is the biggest idiot idea ever):

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Not all the fighting men were broken, though. Half a dozen Thenns in bronze scale armor stood clustered round one cellar stair, watching sullenly and making no attempt to join the others. In the ruins of the old village smithy Jon spied a big bald slab of a man he recognized as Halleck, the brother of Harma Dogshead. Harma's pigs were gone, though. Eaten, no doubt. Those two in furs were Hornfoot men, as savage as they were scrawny, barefoot even in the snow. There are wolves amongst these sheep, still.
Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you."
She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.
 
Ok, now for the real world junk. George is no doubt writing a modern day tale that reflects his personal values. There are many common themes throughout all of his books, and valuing the underdog is one of them. Just look at his recent September 14 blog post that is a "Salute to Immigrants", where he says in the comments:
 
"The idea that the present wave of immigrants is somehow different from all previous waves of immigrants, and THESE people are "not like us" and will not assimilate... this is the myth that will not die. It has been applied to pretty much every group of immigrants ever to come to our shores. Assimilation does not take place overnight, no. It is sometimes the work of generations. But it does happen. I believe in the power of the melting pot."
 
Quote

On a related note, can we expect the Free Folk being allowed through the Wall, and specifically the marriage of House Karstark to the Thenns, to have any lasting effect (negative or positive) on the North in the upcoming books or in the distant future?

Yes, they will assimilate and things will work, but as George himself notes, it will take some time.

In the story, the north is thinly populated as it is, but factor in those who were lost to the War of 5 Kings, and presumably the upcoming battle at Winterfell and the Others invasion, George has set it up that the north NEEDS new people... and the Free Folk are the blood of the first men and share the same gods, so assimilating won't be that hard for too long. The Thenns already married in are described as the more "obediant" of the wildlings, so while there will be some backlash and culture shocks, when a clan has its leader marry into a new family, that clan leader is going to set the example for the rest and will have to enforce laws.

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon III

 Ygritte said the Thenns were savage fighters, and that their Magnar was a god to them. Jon could believe that. Unlike Jarl and Harma and Rattleshirt, Styr commanded absolute obedience from his men, and that discipline was no doubt part of why Mance had chosen him to go over the Wall.

Besides, George will probably lessen the chances of too much negative feedback by killing off the "bad" wildling we have left, just to keep the story moving along and not stalling on one small point.

And remember what Jon said:

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

    "My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."
Edited by The Fattest Leech
timing mistake corrected

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At the moment this post is a placeholder so I do not forget this info while working on the continuation of this thread. Read if you want (of course;)), but it is not organized just yet.

I like the notion that Tormund "Horn-blower" gave Jon a set of golden twins;) when the wildlings pay homage to Jon as they pass through the wall. Copied and pasted here from my post on another thread here. That thread is also worth a read.

I always wondered if Tormund wasn't the horn himself. Prophecy and the details that go along with it are always foggy and often misinterpreted in this story. ADDING: If there is a literal horn that is needed, I think it is the one Sam has with him down south right now (for many reasons). So we have Tormund with gold bands marked with runes, and later at the pink letter reading in the very symbolic shieldhall, we get Tormund blowing a horn twice. And then Jon asks for a "horn" just before he is stabbed. Well, what if that horn Jon gets is the back up and support of Tormund Horn-blower at this time???

With the mutiny happening, that means the brothers have fallen apart and not stood together, which means the "wall falls". When the wall falls, the Others can pass. Tormund being the third "horn blast" at the mutiny while the wall falls is the sign that the Others can now pass.

  • If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends.
  • Jon Snow glanced toward the stockade. Two walls were down, a third falling fast.
  • A wall is only as good as the men defending it.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

The Shieldhall went mad.
Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.
 
~~~and then while out in the yard just before the mutiny stabbing~~~
Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him." Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife …"

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns

In the Age of Heroes, the legends say, the ironborn were ruled by a mighty monarch known simply as the Grey King. The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose. His hair and beard and eyes were as grey as a winter sea, and from these he took his name. The crown he wore was made of driftwood, so all who knelt before him might know that his kingship came from the sea and the Drowned God who dwells beneath it.
The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.
The Grey King's greatest feat, however, was the slaying of Nagga, largest of the sea dragons, a beast so colossal that she was said to feed on leviathans and giant krakens and drown whole islands in her wroth. The Grey King built a mighty longhall about her bones, using her ribs as beams and rafters. From there he ruled the Iron Islands for a thousand years, until his very skin had turned as grey as his hair and beard. Only then did he cast aside his driftwood crown and walk into the sea, descending to the Drowned God's watery halls to take his rightful place at his right hand

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

Were my sons no more than a lesson for a king, then? Davos felt his mouth tighten.
"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."
 

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

"She talks of cows," Davos told the king. "I am speaking of a boy, your daughter's friend, your brother's son."
"A king's son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins." Melisandre's ruby glowed like a red star at her throat.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so …"
"… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking.
 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"
"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?"
"The Wall killed Jarl."
 
 
Jon declares, "the wall is mine", seven times that I found. Most recent:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

The queen's nostrils flared. "You still mean to ride to Hardhome. I see it on your face. Let them die, I said, yet you will persist in this mad folly. Do not deny it."
"I must do as I think best. With respect, Your Grace, the Wall is mine, and so is this decision."
 
and just adding this for me to get back back to later 

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV 

The Wall was often said to stand seven hundred feet high, but Jarl had found a place where it was both higher and lower. Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high, perhaps nine hundred in spots. But that was deceptive, Jon realized as they drew closer. Brandon the Builder had laid his huge foundation blocks along the heights wherever feasible, and hereabouts the hills rose wild and rugged.
He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true. Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more, ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, and then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west. 
Jarl had chosen to assault the stretch of ice along the ridge. Here, though the top of the Wall loomed eight hundred feet above the forest floor, a good third of that height was earth and stone rather than ice; the slope was too steep for their horses, almost as difficult a scramble as the Fist of the First Men, but still vastly easier to ascend than the sheer vertical face of the Wall itself. And the ridge was densely wooded as well, offering easy concealment. Once brothers in black had gone out every day with axes to cut back the encroaching trees, but those days were long past, and here the forest grew right up to the ice.
 
DOLOROUS EDD TOLD US JON WOULD BE STABBED AND NO ONE LISTENED!!!!:angry2:

Also this:

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"Dark wings, dark words," muttered Tormund. "Isn't that what you kneelers say?"
"We say, Bleed a cold but feast a fever too," Jon told him. "We say, Never drink with Dornishmen when the moon is full. We say a lot of things."
Mully added his two groats. "My old grandmother always used to say, Summer friends will melt away like summer snows, but winter friends are friends forever."
 
and then we have dear ol'-accurate-as-hell Dolorous Edd that warned us before hand:
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

[Jon]"Yes." A sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it. But Melisandre had the right of it. Even a sword without a hilt is better than an empty hand when foes are all around you.
"Good." Val wheeled the garron toward the north. "The first night of the full moon, then." Jon watched her ride away wondering if he would ever see her face again. I am no southron lady, he could hear her say, but a woman of the free folk.
"I don't care what she says," muttered Dolorous Edd, as Val vanished behind a stand of soldier pines. "The air is so cold it hurts to breathe. I would stop, but that would hurt worse." He rubbed his hands together. "This is going to end badly."
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Val using the words of Dornish Princesses:

First a refresher:

Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."

Ok, now back onto Val and her Nymeria status ^_^:

There are quite a few things the World book teaches us and muchof it is information that is given to us so we can figure out other "mysteries" of the story that are happening now. Basically, a ton of foreshadowing. One thing of importance is how the dragons were always a thorn is the sides of both provinces.

As mentioned in the main post, "Good" Queen Alysanne and King Jaeherys were actually not that good at all in the end because their biggest conquest (that only they could have done) was to crush the culture of both areas. Including magic in the north. So in the story now, we have Jon and Val both undoing what KJ and GQA did against the north. Val is returning with the Free Folk and Ghost and some of the magic of the north. But we have covered this, so let's move on to what happened in Dorne, shall we :devil:

The Rhoynar fled from the dragons and Valyrians, and the Dornish later rejected both of those things. Bring on the heroine Meria Martell!  The words of House Martell, the leaders of Dorne, are "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken," and she had no problem telling Queen Rhaenys that, right before she told her to bug off. This is very much like Val and her interaction with Queen Selyse and how Selyse is massively overstepping her boundaries with a culture she does not know and in a war-like situation, most of it without the permission on her husband, King Stannis.

  • The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

    "I will not fight you," Princess Meria told Rhaenys, "nor will I kneel to you. Dorne has no king. Tell your brother that."
    "I shall," Rhaenys replied, "but we will come again, Princess, and the next time we shall come with fire and blood."
    "Your words," said Princess Meria. "Ours are Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. You may burn us, my lady...but you will not bend us, break us, or make us bow. This is Dorne. You are not wanted here. Return at your peril."
    Thus queen and princess parted, and Dorne remained unconquered.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"Westeros has but one king," said Stannis. His voice rang harsh, with none of Melisandre's music. "With this sword I defend my subjects and destroy those who menace them. Bend the knee, and I promise you food, land, and justice. Kneel and live. Or go and die. The choice is yours." He slipped Lightbringer into its scabbard, and the world darkened once again, as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Open the gates."

 

As opposed to what Jon and Val/Free Folk say:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

The queen's face hardened. "A grievous oversight." What faint traces of warmth her voice had held vanished all at once.
"Free folk do not kneel," Val told her.
"Then they must be knelt," the queen [Selyse] declared.
"Do that, Your Grace, and we will rise again at the first chance," Val promised. "Rise with blades in hand."
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

    "You're taking boys as young as twelve."
    Down in the Seven Kingdoms boys of twelve were often pages or squires; many had been training at arms for years. Girls of twelve were children. These are wildlings, though. "As you will. Boys and girls as young as twelve. But only those who know how to obey an order. That goes for all of you. I will never ask you to kneel to me, but I will set captains over you, and serjeants who will tell you when to rise and when to sleep, where to eat, when to drink, what to wear, when to draw your swords and loose your arrows.
    • So here again we see Jon taking on the practice of equal promigenture and he is doing it on his own. This was an inherent ideal to Nymeria.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Jon's smile died. "I might if I could trust him. Sigorn blames me for his father's death, I fear. Worse, he was bred and trained to give orders, not to take them. Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey."

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"You can kill your enemies," Jon said bluntly, "but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws?"
"Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King's Landing?" Mance laughed. "When we want laws we'll make our own. You can keep your king's justice too, and your king's taxes. I'm offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you."

By the way, if you follow LML at all then you know Jon is a Sun symbol, and we have concluded Val is his moon counterpart. This interaction between Princess Meria and Rhaenys takes place at Sunspear, as in Jon= Sun, Val= spearwife.

Coinky-dink? I think not :love:


ADDING: Jon does not request or require anyone to kneel to him, an ideal he shares with Val and the Free Folk. It is this reason that leads me to believe that Dany will never rule the north.

We see in the books at least 9 times where people kneel to Danaerys, or she tells them to kneel. Here is one example:

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

But Whitebeard would not take it. "I flung my sword at Joffrey's feet and have not touched one since. Only from the hand of my queen will I accept a sword again."
"As you wish." Dany took the sword from Brown Ben and offered it hilt first. The old man took it reverently. "Now kneel," she told him, "and swear it to my service."
He went to one knee and lay the blade before her as he said the words. Dany scarcely heard them. He was the easy one, she thought. The other will be harder. When Ser Barristan was done, she turned to Jorah Mormont. "And now you, ser. Tell me true."

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
added more info

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20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:
"Do that, Your Grace, and we will rise again at the first chance," Val promised. "Rise with blades in hand."

Does Val warns or even promises a Northern Rebellion? I think so.

Let’s see; 
The Dornish fought against the powers of the King and his allies. The notable commanders were Daeron I, the King, Alyn Velaryon, a famed sailor and Lyonel Tyrell.
Seeing those men closely we see that;
Daeron was the King. His Targaryen blood came from his father’s side. His  mother was from a house that was among the principal houses sworn to her husband’s house and was located on an island.
 

Alyn Velaryon was a famed sailor who carried scars on his body as the price he had to pay for trying to tame a dragon and was raised to power and *nobility* after he proved himself. 
Alyn’s titles were among others; Lord of the Tides, Master of Driftmark, Master of ships
 

Lyonel Tyrell a Reachman and the Head of Tyrell.

 

When Stannis attacked the Wall against the Free Folk he had his powers as the King and his allies. Stannis’ most notable commanders, not just at the time of the attack, were himself, Davos Seaworth, Axell Florent after his brother’s death.

Let’s see about Stannis’ commanders;
Stannis is the King. His Targaryen blood came from his father’s side. His mother was from a house that was among the principal houses sworn to her husband’s house and was located on an island.
 

Davos Seaworth is a famed sailor who had his fingers chopped as the price he had to pay for smuggling and was raised to power and *nobility* after he proved himself.
Davos’ titles were among others; Admiral of the Narrow Sea, Lord of the Rainwood and Hand of the King.
 

Axell Florent a Reachman and a member of House Florent.

 

Am I the only one who sees some similarities about the two situations?

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does Val warns or even promises a Northern Rebellion? I think so.

Let’s see; 
The Dornish fought against the powers of the King and his allies. The notable commanders were Daeron I, the King, Alyn Velaryon, a famed sailor and Lyonel Tyrell.
Seeing those men closely we see that;
Daeron was the King. His Targaryen blood came from his father’s side. His  mother was from a house that was among the principal houses sworn to her husband’s house and was located on an island.
 

Alyn Velaryon was a famed sailor who carried scars on his body as the price he had to pay for trying to tame a dragon and was raised to power and *nobility* after he proved himself. 
Alyn’s titles were among others; Lord of the Tides, Master of Driftmark, Master of ships
 

Lyonel Tyrell a Reachman and the Head of Tyrell.

 

When Stannis attacked the Wall against the Free Folk he had his powers as the King and his allies. Stannis’ most notable commanders, not just at the time of the attack, were himself, Davos Seaworth, Axell Florent after his brother’s death.

Let’s see about Stannis’ commanders;
Stannis is the King. His Targaryen blood came from his father’s side. His mother was from a house that was among the principal houses sworn to her husband’s house and was located on an island.
 

Davos Seaworth is a famed sailor who had his fingers chopped as the price he had to pay for smuggling and was raised to power and *nobility* after he proved himself.
Davos’ titles were among others; Admiral of the Narrow Sea, Lord of the Rainwood and Hand of the King.
 

Axell Florent a Reachman and a member of House Florent.

 

Am I the only one who sees some similarities about the two situations?

I just got chills! 

Thank you. Sometimes I write things when I only have 4 minutes and I miss crucial details. 

This is awesome and definitely points to the future. I need to do some research now. 

Thank you, thank you :cheers:

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On 23/10/2016 at 5:33 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I just got chills! 

Thank you. Sometimes I write things when I only have 4 minutes and I miss crucial details. 

This is awesome and definitely points to the future. I need to do some research now. 

Thank you, thank you :cheers:

:D Finally I have said something worthy in this thread!

Now, if we stretch it even more we see that there are more similarities. For example the Baratheons and the Targaryens were enemies like the Tyrells and Florents. Alyn had several children with his wife and had at least one mistress, like Davos. Both Alyn and Davos were loyal to their lords, Alyn to Rhaenyra and Davos to Stannis, when it was difficult for them to be loyal. 

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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On 10/23/2016 at 8:27 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does Val warns or even promises a Northern Rebellion? I think so.

Let’s see; 
The Dornish fought against the powers of the King and his allies.

...snipped for space...

Am I the only one who sees some similarities about the two situations?

Sorry for the delay in a proper response. I've been under the weather and only slightly coming out the other side.

So, while re-reading a few things in this thread, as well as listening to the books, I think what you found is a great (potential) double whammy find in that it also links to what Patchface is telling people is going to happen. I wrote a little about it in a post on PG 1.

It has to do with the mermen, starfish soup, and fish eating the fish, etc. It was this quote that I re-found earlier that added to the A-ha! moment.

  • The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh

The origins of Myr are murkier. The Myrmen are believed by certain maesters to be akin to the Rhoynar,
  • A Storm of Swords - Jon V

    "Swimming? In the storm?" She laughed at the notion. "Is this a trick t' get the clothes off me, Jon Snow?"
    "Do I need a trick for that now?" he teased. "Or is that you can't swim a stroke?" Jon was a strong swimmer himself, having learned the art as a boy in Winterfell's great moat.
    Ygritte punched his arm. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. I'm half a fish, I'll have you know."
  •  
  • "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish."- Patchface to Davos, STORM, Davos v
 
In summary, the mermen (myrmen) are the wildlings that are fighting the Crab King (Stannis's men in armor) for life below the flowing water (the wall).  I think the new fish from the previous riddle is Val/Morna, while the old fish is definitely Mel in terms of magic. This was also mentioned in the Nymeria story previous using Druselka.
Now we have Selyse to deal with... and her time is limited :devil:

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Updating the main post to show another one-eye/Odin connection to Jon and how interacting with the wildlings will help him see more clearly.

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon II

    "It was him I asked. Has he lost his tongue? Perhaps he should, to spare us further lies."
    Styr the Magnar drew a long knife. "The boy might see more clear with one eye, instead of two."
Also, updating the Mutiny stabbing PT 1 to show more of how Bowen Marsh just does not understand the meaning of the vows to the Nights Watch... which is to protect the realms of men from the Others, NOT to keep the Free Folk out. It is actually Marsh, Thorne and Yarwyck who bring down the wall by conspiring to kill Jon all the way back before Jon was even the Lord Commander. Those three were conspiring in Southron ambitions as I have noted above.
 
This denial of the Others by the maesters is a carryover from the atrocities Jaeherys and Alysanne committed in the North as well.
  • Dance: Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. "The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath."
    • This is a perfect example of misinformation that is happening right now. THE WALL WAS NOT BUILT TO KEEP OUT WILDLINGS! Jon did not break that oath. The Free Folk are part of the realms of men the NW is sworn to protect.
  • The Wall was made to defend the realms of the First Men, and the men of the Night's Watch have reportedly defended the Wall against Others and other monsters for eight thousand years since the end of the Long Night. Wiki Source.
  • World: Unique in the Seven Kingdoms is the Night's Watch, the sworn brotherhood that has defended the Wall over centuries and millennia, born in the aftermath of the Long Night, the generation-long winter that brought the Others down on the realms of men and nearly put an end to them.
    • The wall was built to keep the Others out! Not Free Folk.
    • The maesters in the World Book say over and over that the Others were probably not real, which spreads the falsehood of the Faith/7 and negates the purpose of Northern culture and the Watch.
      • World: The history of the Night's Watch is a long one. Tales still tell of the black knights of the Wall and their noble calling. But the Age of Heroes is long done, and the Others have not shown themselves in thousands of years, if indeed they ever existed.

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Adding a few new bits of information throughout the thread, just giving an update to what here:

This is the first of three references Jon makes to Val and salt

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

But what does it matter, for all men must die,
and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!
Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.
UPDATED: So we have Val standing there looking all salty... well a synonym for Salt is Sailor... as in someone who sails the seas... as in Nymeria!
Synonyms
1. seafarer. Sailor, mariner, salt, seaman, tar are terms for a person who leads a seafaring life. A sailor or seaman is one whose occupation is on board a ship at sea; an able-bodied seaman. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sailor
Also, in Norse mythology, SALT is important because it gives nourishment and even created life, and there is even some ice relation in there http://norse-mythology.org/tales/norse-creation-myth/. It came from a cow, but we have seen Sea Cows before, amIright??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Búri
This goes along with what I wrote about in the main post where Melisandre will cause problems like Druselka caused problems for Nymeria. Also, to me, this shows that these brothers are on the same "religious" side as Val, which is more support for her and the Free Folk after the mutiny.:
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

The queen's men took up the cry, beating the butts of their spears against their shields. "One realm, one god, one king! STANNIS! STANNIS! ONE REALM, ONE GOD, ONE KING!"
Val did not join the chant, he saw. Nor did the brothers of the Night's Watch.
 
And Val has always been leery of Mel and her type of magic. No on eknows which way the flame will go could mean what we readers have seen, Melisandre is not good at reading her flames and makes things up to suit her devout needs to "prove" she is what she says she is:
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

    Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?"
    "Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go." Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse's back, and looked down from the saddle. "Do you remember what my sister told you?"
Edited by The Fattest Leech
added more info

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On 10/23/2016 at 8:27 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does Val warns or even promises a Northern Rebellion? I think so.

~snipped and pasted below for easier response~

Ok. I know I am moving a little slower in this thread lately (work and dogs and stuff :ack:), but I wanted to respond while I still had this in mind. I agree with your comparions. The only thing I see differently is who the main aggressor is at Castle Black. I think it is Selyse and that would fit the history repeating, just with a twist. My response is below:

Let’s see; 
The Dornish fought against the powers of the King and his allies. The notable commanders were Daeron I, the King, Alyn Velaryon, a famed sailor and Lyonel Tyrell.
Seeing those men closely we see that;
Daeron was the King. His Targaryen blood came from his father’s side. His  mother was from a house that was among the principal houses sworn to her husband’s house and was located on an island.

  • This is where I think the twist is that Selyse is the main aggressor instead of Stannis. Her Targaryen blood comes from her husband/King, she is the one who is currently still at CB, she is severely over-stepping her boundaries by trying to marry off Free Folk with her men, she has mentioned twice to just let the wildings die, etc. Selyse also has her own ducklings that follow her explicitly, as a king might.
  • Selyse has already managed to get one of her men killed for trying to go where he doesn't belong. Ser Patrek of King's Mountain as he tried to (probably) steal Val from her tower.
  • Jon notes that Selyse only touches or kisses the good side of Shireen's face. Selyse is way more devout than Stannis is and I think if Shireen burns, then it will be because of Selyse and her beliefs in both R'hollor and thinking Stannis is AAR, as Mel has convinced her he is.
  • I don't think Stannis will make it back to Castle Black anytime soon, so the upcoming events will have to do with some decisions from Selyse. I think these decision will get Selyse killed, and maybe by Stannis??? 
  • I think much of what we see in the direct aftermath of the mutiny is chaos of which the queen's men are involved against the wildlings (Dornish).
  • I think Davos will be an ally here because he never even went to the Wall/Castle Black and no matter what happens, he has honor to do things right. And he doesn't trust Mel! :lol:

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On 4/11/2016 at 5:16 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Selyse is the main aggressor instead of Stannis

I think that this is a very interesting. Unlike Stannis who is at least an atheist Selyse is a fanatic. That way she would try to impose her views on the Free Folk. I believe that she will be Lyonel Tyrell. She will be the one who will be the *overlord* of the Free Folk instead of the King and she will die trying to oppress them.

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Just updating and adding a few more quotes to the post above showing that it was not Jon meddling in southron politics, but three stooges: Marsh, Thorne and Yarwyck. Below:

 

  • A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

[Tywin] "There is no need. The Night's Watch is a pack of thieves, killers, and baseborn churls, but it occurs to me that they could prove otherwise, given proper discipline. If Mormont is indeed dead, the black brothers must choose a new Lord Commander."
Pycelle gave Tyrion a sly glance. "An excellent thought, my lord. I know the very man. Janos Slynt."
Tyrion liked that notion not at all. "The black brothers choose their own commander," he reminded them. "Lord Slynt is new to the Wall. I know, I sent him there. Why should they pick him over a dozen more senior men?"
"Because," his father said, in a tone that suggested Tyrion was quite the simpleton, "if they do not vote as they are told, their Wall will melt before it sees another man."
...
"In closing, ask Marsh to pass along His Grace's fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant, Lord Janos Slynt."

 

Sidenote: How funny will it be if Thorne, a Targ loyalist, finds out Jon's heritage after he tries to kill him:lol:
Aahhh, but Alliser won't get to enjoy the realization because Alliser will come back as a wight:
  • Ser Alliser only said, "You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I'll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You'd best pray that it's a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don't stay dead … and they remember. I'm coming back, Lord Snow."
"I pray you do." Jon would never count Ser Alliser Thorne amongst his friends, but he was still a brother.

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On 11/5/2016 at 1:34 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that this is a very interesting. Unlike Stannis who is at least an atheist Selyse is a fanatic. That way she would try to impose her views on the Free Folk. I believe that she will be Lyonel Tyrell. She will be the one who will be the *overlord* of the Free Folk instead of the King and she will die trying to oppress them.

Ok, I admit that I could not remember too many details about Lyonel Tyrell, so I took a little bit of time and read more about him.

Holy hells, you are correct :thumbsup: Selyse is more the Lyonel rather than the Daeron. I did a comparison on the main points below:

  1. Lyonel was not a part of the DoD, but he was part of the Conquest of Dorne, and we know Dorne is like the North most of all, so easy comparison there.
    • From the World Book: Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."
  2. Lord Lyonel fought beneath the Targaryen banner when the Young Dragon, King Daeron I Targaryen, sought to conquer Dorne.
    • Here is a twist that George does to history repeating. Daeron sough to conquer Dorne, just as Stannis came riding in to conquer the wildlings at the wall and to "save" Castle Black.
    • A difference is at this point, King Stannis left Selyse/Lyonel back at Eastwatch. However, history does tell us that the king's men were divided, and this would be the reflection of that in the story now. Stannis's men and Selyse's men, her Royal Ducklings.
  3. Upon his ascension in 157 AC, Daeron marched south with his armies and defeated the Dornishmen, becoming the first Targaryen king to conquer Dorne and unite all Seven Kingdoms for the first time.
    • Again, a twist on history repeating. Stannis marched south of Castle Black/the Wall to defeat what is now the seige at Winterfell/Boltons. Stannis is also made aware of the Karstark treachery that is planned.
    • As far as uniting goes, Sam says this in AFFC, "Sam reddened. King Stannis had plans for Val, he knew; she was the mortar with which he meant to seal the peace between the northmen and the free folk."
  4. Lyonel faithfully, if perhaps too boldly, commanded the army that invaded Dorne via the Prince's Pass.
    • This is totally Selyse. As you said, she is acting as "overlord" while at Castle Black. She is ordering people around and messing with the NW duties, and even trying to make marriage arrangements (three of them)... of which I am sure will piss off Stannis.
    • The Prince's Pass is not only where Jon was born in Dorne (if you follow RLJ), but the Prince's Pass in this current case is the Wall itself. Jon let the wildlings pass through the wall, and the wall is his as he says about 7 times in the books.
  5. After the Young Dragon's initial victory, Daeron appointed Lyonel as governor of Dorne.
    • Was Selyse ever officially put in charge? Or was it all in her own head?
  6. The Dornishmen, however, proved cunning and impossible to rule.
    • Jon notices this about Val when he says she is not "cowed" and also the kneeling but mentioned in the main post. Jon is very clear and tries to tell Stannis and Selyse over and over that they don't know what they are doing.
    • "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he [Jon] said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth.
      [Val] "May I laugh when I kneel?"
  7. Lyonel moved with his train from one keep to the next, chasing rebels out and keeping the knees of the Dornishmen bent.
    1. Hmmmm, let's see: Selyse was supposed to stay at Eastwatch, then moved to Castle Black and supposed to move on to Nightfort. Cotter Pyke complains about her attitude as well.
  8. It Lyonel's custom to turn the lords of the keeps he stayed in out of their chambers and sleep in their place.
    • Hell, Selyse does this at every place she goes to. She is currently in the royal chambers in the Kings Tower at CB.
      • "Your old cell is occupied. Queen Selyse has claimed the King's Tower, for her own. Do you remember Hardin's Tower?"
  9. One night at Sandstone, finding himself in a bed with a heavy velvet canopy, he pulled a sash near the pillows to summon a wench. When he did so, the canopy opened and a hundred red scorpions fell upon him. His death sparked new revolts, and in a fortnight all the work of the Young Dragon was undone, eventually bringing the about the death of King Daeron himself.
    • This last part, Lyonel's death, is very interesting. I am sure this can be extrapolated into some great foreshadowing for TWOW for Selyse and Stannis both.


I love this comparison. What do you think? I think #9 will show the amount of loyalty that will stand with Jon after the mutiny stabbing, and also the fact that maybe Selyse, or more likely Mel, could have played a big part in the mutiny plans/timing and certainly the issue with Ser Patrek.

 

ADDING 11/28/16:

All of this Nymeria re-happening takes place in ASOS. It is also in ASOS where Davos has this chat and gives a direct link to the Conquest of Dorne. Davos continues his reading practice with letters and this is where Davos finds out about the situation in the North and then convinces Stannis to go there. So we have a pretty quick transition from the talk about the Conquest of Dorne to moving on to Castle Black. Hmmm....

"That he did," the maester agreed. "But now I must give my attention to Lord Davos, who has waited so patiently. We will read more of King Daeron's Conquest of Dorne on the morrow."
Princess Shireen and the boys said their farewells courteously. When they had taken their leaves, Maester Pylos moved closer to Davos. "My lord, perhaps you would like to try a bit of Conquest of Dorne as well?" He slid the slender leather-bound book across the table. "King Daeron wrote with an elegant simplicity, and his history is rich with blood, battle, and bravery. Your son is quite engrossed."
"My son is not quite twelve. I am the King's Hand. Give me another letter, if you would."
"As you wish, my lord." Maester Pylos rummaged about his table, unrolling and then discarding various scraps of parchment. "There are no new letters. Perhaps an old one . . ."
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I love this comparison. What do you think? I think #9 will show the amount of loyalty that will stand with Jon after the mutiny stabbing, and also the fact that maybe Selyse, or more likely Mel, could have played a big part in the mutiny plans/timing and certainly the issue with Ser Patrek.

I love it!

Btw I can see how Selyse would be the one to have the power to rule either as a façade for Mel or at least as  Shireen's regent. She will rule, like Lyonel, instead of Daeron, Shireen or Stannis , and she will be the one who will try to oppress the Free Folk, since Mel has already tried to do it, but then they will as Balon said; rise again, blade in hand. I do believe that for a time the Northmen might kneel but after that they will rise as the Dornish have done fight their oppressors the Tyrells and Targs in Daeron's time and the Baratheon, Stannis, Lannister, Tywin, and Targaryen, Dany, during Jon's time.

Now something that I would like to mention is that both Nymeria’s case and Val’s it seems that they were the leader who will change the society, something that doesn’t happen with Arya, Dany or Sansa for example.  What I mean is that they are the people who will bring their people and they will change the society. Dornish society was more or less similar with the rest of the Andals before Nymeria’s landing. Same, the North had many similarities with the rest of Westeros, since they are ruled by Southorns. The change has already begun, like at Nymeria’s time, the integration of the Free Folk through marriage is a fact. Also I might add that like what happened with Nymeria the Free Folk are not just driven away from their houses because of an extremity, the dragons and the Ice Zombies, but also they are unwilling to kneel or they want to kneel with their own terms. Like the Rhoynish the Free Folk will bend the knee to the man who will accept them as a part of his realm and not as subordinates but as equals.

                                                                                                                              

Also a bit off topic but it seems that Val has also some similarities with Lyanna

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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