Nymeria is poised to return

[The Fattest Leech]

@Feather Crystal welcome to my madness! 

Let me finish making this coffee and sammy and I’ll respond more in a bit.  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Feather Crystal welcome to my madness! 

Let me finish making this coffee and sammy and I’ll respond more in a bit.  

Thanks! And I apologize...I'm lazy about providing text to support my assertions. If you need them I will find them. I just figure us "old hands" know the books nearly forward and backward and sometimes it feels like providing the text is superfluous. 

[Melifeather]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:40 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

• • A quick summary let's you know that the words Aeli, Vali and Draconis are used often when speaking about the historic significance of HW. Valli means VAL[L]I, "of the Wall"The name AELI was Hadrian's nomen, his main family name, the gens Aelia. DRACONIS can be translated as "[by the hand – or property] of Draco". Draco also means dragon, and is a constellation as well. We know by now how Jon is tied to the stars, including the ice dragon himself. I pointed out in the main OP that after Jon is chosen as LC, he says repeatedly that the wall is his.
• Dalla and Val are derived from the old Norse word Völva, or Vala in more modern tongue. The Vala were wandering shaman/healer, and one who is a seer. A literal translation of the word völva is "wand-wed". Well, we don't have any magic wands in the story( I take this back, below), but we have swords and magic swords and a tradition of "marrying" a girl caught at sword point (stealing). Jon already stole Val.

Don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, but I will assert my belief right now that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, and please all your RLJ-ers out there, lets not turn Leech's thread into a debate about for RLJ...there's already a thread for that.

Jon is the "Bastard O'Winterfell" and as such his father is Bael. Bael may be Mance, but he may also be some other ironborn wildling from beyond the Wall. Tormund makes regular trips over the Wall, and the text suggests he is the father of "bears" or rather Mormonts. I think its telling that Mormont gives Jon his family sword, because it suggests Jon's father is from beyond the Wall as well.

Don't let the term "Draconis" throw you. The opposite of dragons are not direwolves. Dragons are fire made flesh and their opposite should be made of ice. White walkers are made of ice so they are the flip side of dragons, and since ice burns as badly as fire you could say that white walkers are also ice dragons.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, but I will assert my belief right now that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, and please all your RLJ-ers out there, lets not turn Leech's thread into a debate about for RLJ...there's already a thread for that.

I would never. I love tomatoes too much

To the point, I did try and make the statement a few times throughout this thread that RLJ doesn't have to be true so much that what we could be seeing is a repeat of that tale in the current story. And thank you for the request to avoid debates here It is true we have better places for that.

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon is the "Bastard O'Winterfell" and as such his father is Bael. Bael may be Mance, but he may also be some other ironborn wildling from beyond the Wall. Tormund makes regular trips over the Wall, and the text suggests he is the father of "bears" or rather Mormonts. I think its telling that Mormont gives Jon his family sword, because it suggests Jon's father is from beyond the Wall as well.

I totally agree about Mormont and the bears connected to Jon. This happens a lot more than some may realize on regular reads. I have another longass essay written up about Jon and his equally defining bear symbolism. I may have to dog some of that out tonight to share with you here.

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don't let the term "Draconis" throw you. The opposite of dragons are not direwolves. Dragons are fire made flesh and their opposite should be made of ice. White walkers are made of ice so they are the flip side of dragons, and since ice burns as badly as fire you could say that white walkers are also ice dragons.

I admit that there are some "updates" to this I should be making and have not done in months. But time, time, time.

Some of that is that it seems to me that the dragons more specifically are akin to the wights, as Danaerys may be to the Others (if the Others are controlling the wights). I am sorta rushing at the moment and not being totally clear , but it is like the cup of ice, cup of fire thing. I think Bran has the ice dragon side to him in a similar yet comparable way that Jon does. The direwolf-ice dragon totem is within both of them.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thanks! And I apologize...I'm lazy about providing text to support my assertions. If you need them I will find them. I just figure us "old hands" know the books nearly forward and backward and sometimes it feels like providing the text is superfluous. 

I totally understand. Sometimes I do the same when I just get on a talking rant. I just keep going and going...

If I am ever confused, I shall ask --->>> PROOF!

(just kidding with the proof!)

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Dang girl! This OP is long!

I know, right! This is one of the reasons I have not updated/tightened the info. There is A LOT!

Also, I am sure some of it is just "cow tools" anyway.

Quote

I have barely begun to read this and if I didn't have to work I would wait to comment, but I just have to get a few comments in.

I don't know if you're familiar with my assertion that the wildlings are of Ironborn descent, but this assumption would tie in nicely with your assertion that Val will help Jon breath. The Ironborn worship the Drowned God and they drown and revive their faithful. Being that the Ironborn's god was sealed into the Wall, the whole north is "under water" and "upside down" according to Patchface. Jon needs to be resuscitated with the breath of the Ironborn's other recognized diety - the goddess of the wind or the Storm God. The Ironborn work ice magic by "marrying" their two gods of water and wind. 

I have seen it mentioned in short comments here and there, but if you have it written out elsewhere that you can link me to that might help me understand where you are coming from.

Jon will be the drowned god!

Quote

I agree Jon was chosen, but I disagree his job is to "save" the wildings.

Yeah, this is spelled out in that other essay I referred to a second ago. I will dig it out because it really shows how those around Jon tend to see soemthing in him that he himself has not realized yet. It is all bear related, too

Quote

And now, back to read more of this fabulous OP you've written!

Thanks. I know it is long, so take your time to browse.

[Melifeather]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:40 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

• • Jon hears Val, a moon symbol, singing to Gilly's baby, Monster. Could this be a parallel link to Val and Dalla being moonsingers of some sort? They are nomadic healers, they know birthing songs, and Jon did declare that Val was the midwife to Dalla.
  • This post on Pg 6 gives some great pagan/moon meanings... including Winterfell and Winter is Coming.
• How Val and Dalla got their name and their importance to Free Folk society (section 4). Or this updated woods witch one in ASOIAF world.

Ah the magic moon maiden! The original moon maiden was Elenei - the daughter of the sea god (Drowned God) and goddess of the wind (Storm God). In effect Elenei was magic itself - the product or "daughter" of combining water with air. Val is a moon maiden, because she knows how to work this magic. 

I forgot to add why they're "moon" maidens. The Children call Planetos a "moon" that is why it is sister to the moon in the sky. Nissa Nissa = moon moon.

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have seen it mentioned in short comments here and there, but if you have it written out elsewhere that you can link me to that might help me understand where you are coming from.

Jon will be the drowned god!

Egads. I'm afraid it's not contained to just one thread! The idea sprang from researching inversions in the titled chapters, which I've written extensively about on HOBAW. It's a project that is only about a quarter done. My suspicions began with the analysis of The Prophet, but even then it took almost two years for the wildling theory to come to fruition, mainly through discussion of Pretty Pig's Gods are not Mocked thread. Someday if I ever write a concise and more compact essay I'll tag you.

Jon is drowning and needs to be resuscitated in the tradition of the Ironborn. He has more of the north in him, because he's got a wildling Ironborn father and a Stark mother - both groups are of First Men descent. The Ironborn are First Men just as much as Starks, but are called "Others", because they were shunned and feared due to their working of magic. It takes the sacrifice of Children to make the marriage of water and air work. I wonder if Val will be able to capture one to sacrifice? Maybe that's what takes the 9 days? OK - I'll put aside my tinfoil hat for the time being.

[Melifeather]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:40 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

• •  
• Val is repeating the words of Meria Martell, a female descendant to Nymeria, and as noted below, Dorne and the far North are related, and the Rhoynish migration is the Free Folk migration of now. Val is the new Nymeria to Jon and his future campaign. More on PG 3 post.
  • From Dance: "Free folk do not kneel," Val told her.
  • From World:"I will not fight you," Princess Meria told Rhaenys, "nor will I kneel to you. Dorne has no king. Tell your brother that."
  • AGOT/ Eddard X: [ToJ scene] "I came down to Storm's End to lift the seige, " Ned told them, " and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge fealty...", "Our knees do not bend easily, " said Ser Arthur Dayne.
  • Meria is called the Toad of Dorne, and later we see that Toad at Castle Black warns against Melisandre because she has people BURN WEIRWOOD pieces. Mel also wants Jon to burn the weirwood at Winterfell, which is a reason why Jon declines that offer.
• Nymeria had Lyonel Tyrell who fought under King Daeron I during his Conquest of Dorne. The Dornishmen proved too much for him to handle and they ended up killing him. Val now has Selyse in the Lyonel Tyrell position to deal with... and maybe kill? Post on PG 3 tells more.
  • In ASOS/Davos V, Davos goes to Maester Pylos to continue his reading practice. They talk of the book Conquest of Dorne and then Davos starts reading practice using scrolls. This is where Davos reads about the situation at the wall and then convinces Stannis to head that way. So we have the book Conquest of Dorne mentioned twice and then the discovery of the Wall situation happening in quick succession. Book source
    • Princess Shireen and the boys said their farewells courteously. When they had taken their leaves, Maester Pylos moved closer to Davos. "My lord, perhaps you would like to try a bit of Conquest of Dorne as well?" He slid the slender leather-bound book across the table. "King Daeron wrote with an elegant simplicity, and his history is rich with blood, battle, and bravery. Your son is quite engrossed.""..."As you wish, my lord." Maester Pylos rummaged about his table, unrolling and then discarding various scraps of parchment. "There are no new letters. Perhaps an old one . . ."
    • Davos arrives to White Harbor, which is at the mouth of the White Knife, on the ship The Merry Midwife. We have seen that Jon makes Val a midwife.
      • ADWD/Davos 2: The Merry Midwife stole into White Harbor on the evening tide, her patched sail rippling with every gust of wind.
    • A few more Davos connections in a PG 5 post. These are a little more symbolic, but still cleverly done.
    • The symbolic connection between the flaking gold crown on Queenscrowne and the statue in Oldtown. PG 5 post.
• The importance in the symbolism of her honey hair color, and some possibilities to her curious eye color as well.
  • We know Val is the moon maid that Jon the Thief stole, and Val has honey-colored hair, sooo... Val is a honey moon. Are Jon and Val on their honeymoon (or will be after the fighting stops)
  • In ancient times honeymoon referred to the time of year when bee honey was ripe and cured to be harvested from hives or from the wild. This was usually around the Summer solstice by end June.
  • We learn in a Jaime chapter, "Faith is like porridge. Better with milk and honey."
  • Val is represented as the "Queen Bee" of the drone-like free folk.

I am really digging your parallels between Val and the Rhoynar/Dorne. And I might point out that Davos is retracing Ned's steps after he leaves the Eyrie to call his banners. He had to have stopped at White Harbor (like Davos) on his way to Winterfell. IMO we are getting the details of his trip when we read about Davos. The story of the Fisherman's Daughter plays into this and the parallel to the Merry Midwife since the Daughter is said to have had a "bastard in her belly".

Sorry - short interruption while I go back to Bael from an earlier response.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, but I will assert my belief right now that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, and please all your RLJ-ers out there, lets not turn Leech's thread into a debate about for RLJ...there's already a thread for that.

Jon is the "Bastard O'Winterfell" and as such his father is Bael. Bael may be Mance, but he may also be some other ironborn wildling from beyond the Wall. Tormund makes regular trips over the Wall, and the text suggests he is the father of "bears" or rather Mormonts. I think its telling that Mormont gives Jon his family sword, because it suggests Jon's father is from beyond the Wall as well.

Don't let the term "Draconis" throw you. The opposite of dragons are not direwolves. Dragons are fire made flesh and their opposite should be made of ice. White walkers are made of ice so they are the flip side of dragons, and since ice burns as badly as fire you could say that white walkers are also ice dragons.

Adding some thoughts about Bael:

We see "Bael" in many characters. We're given the Bael story as a sort of outline to follow, but with each abducted maiden Bael is someone different. Sansa's Bael is Petyr. Arya's Bael was Yoren. Myrcella's Bael was Arianne, and I think Lyanna's Bael was Tywin and Cersei. They don't even have to be there physically to abduct the maiden from the castle. They just make the arrangements. In the original story of the Bastard O'Winterfell the maiden might not have actually been taken by a wildling singer named Bael. Her "flower" could have been "plucked" by her own father and the singer blamed in order to cover up incest. We already know about another instance where the singer was blamed for something he didn't do when Petyr pushed Lyssa out the moon door. She too was found among the dead mirroring how the Stark daughter was found in the crypts. In Jon's case Bael could have even been Lyanna's own father or brother, although I still lean more towards a singer beyond the Wall.

edited to add: I could also envision Robert as Jon’s father. It would make a nice parallel to Durran Godsgrief and Elenei, as well as making Jon a son of the Storm God.

I hope I’m not coming off as a rude guest crashing around in your house knocking over glasses and spilling my kool-ade on the rug.

[Melifeather]

The parallels to Nymeria are quite striking - I am on board, but I have questions. I've finished the first OP and have a lot to go yet, so maybe you've already answered this down thread, but do you think the wildlings are of Rhoynar origin? Because I've really wondered if the Ironborn came from that same area too. Their whole lifestyle is built around the sea and a watery god. The Rhoynar practiced water magic, but somehow could not withstand fire. 

The separate waves of migration to Westeros from Essos were peoples being driven out by the dragon lords - each group displacing and pushing another forward. There's bound to be common origins much like Mitochondrial Eve, the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers, and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman. Sometimes I wonder if GRRM's "moon maiden" is an "Eve" (of sorts) reincarnated through the loops of history.

I'll keep reading...

[Melifeather]

On 7/29/2016 at 8:27 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

The children fought back as best they could, but the First Men were larger and stronger. Riding their horses, clad and armed in bronze, the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.

Or so the legend says.

I am finally through the first page of this thread! Yay for me!

I apologize up front, but I'm going to insert a theory I have about how the two magics of ice and fire are worked. As you well know this is a story of opposing forces - two sides of the same coin and all that - both types of magic require blood sacrifice and the combination of two elements.

The fire magic that the Children rely on requires human blood and the elements of fire and earth. The Targaryen motto of fire and blood are two important parts of the "recipe", but they are missing the earth element, and maybe that's for the best that they don't know how to work the fire magic? It's probably why their attempts at hatching dragons continually failed. Somehow Dany got the earth element into her funeral pyre, and the cracking of the eggs sounded like the cracking of the world:

  She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

  Only death can pay for life.

  And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

  The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

The ice magic that the Others practice requires blood sacrifice as well, along with the elements of water and air, but I think Craster's sons are a red herring. His story is meant to make us think that "children" are being sacrificed to make white walkers. The tale of the Nights Kings crime of "sacrificing to the Others" also makes us immediately think of children, however I assert that since the two opposing sides of Children versus humans are working two opposing types of magic, each side has to sacrifice the other in order to work their respective magic. Conclusion: I believe the Others were sacrificing Children (of the Forest) to create their white walker soldiers.

 

On 7/31/2016 at 2:56 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

The reason why things matter to us, the reader, now is because so much of it is ingrained in Planetos history. It is a way to excite the reader when they see all the clues coming together. Heck, even Tyrion and Roderick the Reader know about history repeating itself. The BIG DIFFERENCE has to be with the current group of characters learning and knowing about the mistakes of the past and doing better the second time around.

• A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

[Oberyn] "It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely." It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

• A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter

  [Asha} "You must lend me Haereg's book, Nuncle." She would need to learn all she could of kingsmoots before she reached Old Wyk.
  "You may read it here. It is old and fragile." He studied her, frowning. "Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said. I think of that whenever I contemplate the Crow's Eye. Euron Greyjoy sounds queerly like Urron Greyiron to these old ears. I shall not go to Old Wyk. Nor should you."

So what other history is poised to repeat itself at this point in the stories?

1. Dance of Dragons 2.0
2. Long Night 2.0
3. Aegon/Targaryen invasion 2.0
4. The Rat Cook 2.0
5. Massive ecological devastation like the CotF and Dorne 2.0
6. Spring Sickness 2.0 = Grey Scale, or the worse, Grey Plague
   1. This is probably why Val is telling Jon that Shireen should be given the gift of mercy and killed. Val could see what is to come and she wants to prevent this disease from spreading.

 

Now you're speaking my language, lady!

The current history loop has a starting point at the Harrenhal Tourney during the Year of the False Spring, and it was realigned somehow as evidenced by the return to winter rather than into spring.

The history parallels were very close together starting out beginning with Lord Whent's daughter who was queen of love and beauty when the tourney opened. Five champions had sworn to defend her crown: her four brothers and her famous uncle - a white knight of the Kingsguard. The parallel being Lyanna and her three brothers Brandon, Ned, and Benjen, with Howland as a sort of "adopted" brother. I haven't identified the parallel to Oswell Whent, but it could be her father or even the old gods that Howland prayed to.

The next parallel occurs when Lyanna chases off the three squires, which puts Howland into the position of being humiliated and wanting revenge. He searches for a way to be a knight, and he prays to the old gods to help him find a way. The end result is the Knight of the Laughing Tree which shows evidence of human to human skinchanging with at least two or maybe even three people involved:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

  When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

  His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

Some Pig/Pretty Pig said:

A reed, cloaked in vines and flowers, on a slim, fast grey mare, facing off against a powerful opponent. The wolf girl concerned for the rider's safety against a bigger, stronger, and more formidable foe. The wolf girl favoring the rider because of an earlier personal connection. The grey mare's scent distracts the opponent's horse and allows "her" champion to win.

KOTLT: Howland. How did Lyanna help him cheat?

To take this further and make it both an echo and an inversion to the ToHH KotLT incident, we look at what happens next - the Mountain by no means accepts his defeat graciously, as did those defeated at the ToHH.  Instead, he flies into a rage, kills his own horse, and then tries to take out Loras next.   Loras is saved from death only by the intervention of the Hound - the personal protector of the Crown Prince.  (As many have noted, such as Melifeather, the Hound is the current day inversion of Arthur Dayne.)

Also of note, during CleganeBowl Lite at the Tourney of the Hand, King Bob gets fed up and yells to "Stop this madness!" before the Hound obeys and kneels, and the Mountain stomps away in a fury. At the ToHH, King Aerys is incensed by the KotLT and sends out men to capture the mystery knight.

(end of Some Pig/Pretty Pig's quote)

IMO Howland was "cloaked" and "riding" just as Bran rides Hodor. Bran skinchanges Hodor and together they make a great knight. I posit either Howland rode inside Ned or Ned rode inside Howland, while Lyanna skinchanged the horse. A trio of cooperation! 

Sorry - got sidetracked for a moment. Back to the history loop.

The War of the Five Kings was a repeat of Robert's Rebellion. How so? The five kings were Joffrey, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Balon. During Robert's Rebellion there was a northern alliance of Robert as king, Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon, and Hoster Tully.

When Jon Arryn refused to give up Robert Baratheon to King Aerys it was a twisted repeat of the Defiance of Duskendale when the Denys Darklyn held King Aerys.

Lord Commander Jon Snow joining forces with the wildlings to take down the Lord of Winterfell, Ramsay Bolton, who has the King Beyond the Wall in a cage. This is a jumbled reversal of the Nights King story.

I could go on...

On 8/7/2016 at 7:36 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

We already know that there are two celestial bodies that are linked to Jon, the Thief, which was linked to him when he "stole" Ygritte and Val who is Jon's Moonmaid, and the Ice Dragon. The Thief, or the Red Wanderer, is associated with The Smith... and guess where Jon has taken up residence at Castle Black...

Arianne tells Arys that all she needs is a few days to get beyond her father’s reach. The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust-dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them. Arianne notes that there are seven of them and hopes that was a good omen.

Like you've already pointed out, the Moonmaid is a constellation. According to the wildlings if the red wanderer is visible within the Moonmaid, it is a good time to steal a woman. The red wanderer is one of the seven visible in the sky over the known world. Colored red, it is associated with the Smith god by the Faith of the Seven. It therefore seems to be an analog to Mars. Having the moon crown the Moonmaid describes what I think happened to Lyanna. Either seven actual people stole her or "seven" is symbolic for people of Andal descent, and among them should be a man that best represents the "Smith" and who is symbolically like Mars, a warrior god.

On 8/7/2016 at 7:36 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Outside his bedchamber a flight of steps descended to a larger room furnished with a scarred pinewood table and a dozen oak-and-leather chairs. With Stannis in the King's Tower and the Lord Commander's Tower burned to a shell, Jon had established himself in Donal Noye's modest rooms behind the armory. In time, no doubt, he would need larger quarters, but for the moment these would serve whilst he accustomed himself to command.

THE SMITH, people! Robert Baratheon symbolically fits the description of the “smith” and was famous for carrying a warhammer! I'm fingering Robert as the identity of the Smiling Knight and the Kingswood Brotherhood as Lyanna's kidnappers. Rhaegar was setup as a patsy. Jaime described him as the Mountain of his boyhood, but only half as big and twice as mad. I know you're all shaking your heads at me right now, but I think Robert was involved in Lyanna's disappearance and was the one that actually did the raping "hundreds of times". People very often blame others for the things they themselves are guilty of doing. Your suggestion that Jon symbolically is the "smith" would be icing on the cake if Robert was actually his father. He'd be the eldest of Robert's bastards. 

On 8/7/2016 at 8:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Closer at hand, it was the trees that ruled. To south and east the wood went on as far as Jon could see, a vast tangle of root and limb painted in a thousand shades of green, with here and there a patch of red where a weirwood shouldered through the pines and sentinels, or a blush of yellow where some broadleafs had begun to turn. When the wind blew, he could hear the creak and groan of branches older than he was. A thousand leaves fluttered, and for a moment the forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable.

Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort through the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees. Anything. How would they ever know? He stood there for a long time, until the sun vanished behind the saw-toothed mountains and darkness began to creep through the forest.

I love the description of the north as a giant, tempestuous sea, because it not only ties into the Rhoynar, but to the Ironborn. I think the Ironborn are the Others, and the First Men that the Children tried to cutoff from the mainland with their hammer of waters. The hammer separated the Iron Islands from the mainland, and are called "Iron" Islands, because "iron" is an element used in warding. Basically severing them from the mainland was a type of warding. It didn't stop them, however because they made the sea their strength thereby being reborn from the iron ward that was used against them. 

On 8/7/2016 at 8:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

"Swimming? In the storm?" She laughed at the notion. "Is this a trick t' get the clothes off me, Jon Snow?"

"Do I need a trick for that now?" he teased. "Or is that you can't swim a stroke?" Jon was a strong swimmer himself, having learned the art as a boy in Winterfell's great moat.

Ygritte punched his arm. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. I'm half a fish, I'll have you know."

If my theory is correct, then of course Ygritte is half a fish - she's Ironborn!

On 8/7/2016 at 8:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

The Thenns are savage fighters, but because of their belief in the Magnar as their god they are absolutely obedient and more disciplined than other free folk. They are often better equipped than most free folk, with bronze helms, axes of bronze and a few of chipped stone, short stabbing spears with leaf-shaped heads, shirts sewn with bronze discs, and plain unadorned shields of black boiled leather with bronze rims and bosses.

The bronze identifies them as First Men in origin, and bronze is a magical element. The old King of Winter crown is a bronze circlet encircled with 9 iron swords symbolizing that the magic of bronze was defeated and warded with iron. I think Winterfell was taken from the Ironborn when the Long Night ended and the Ironborn were rounded up and imprisoned while the Wall was being built.

On 8/10/2016 at 11:07 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Also about the watery wall and under the sea and mermaids. From the World book:

The Grey King (Jon) ruled the sea itself (North) and took a mermaid to wife (stole Val), so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them (the north or the far north) as they chose.

I suspect that the Grey King and the Nights King are the same person told by two sides. When the Grey King was defeated he went down to be with his Drowned God - in effect when the Nights King was defeated he was forced down the well of the Nightfort and sealed into one of the cells, and ice magic was finally sealed into the Wall with him. 

On 8/10/2016 at 11:39 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Great posts!  I haven't yet gotten to Val entering the story on my second read, but I'll be watching for all this.  

It just got me thinking when you talked about Jon cutting off the independent territory of the North at the Neck.  The North would still have potential relationships to their immediate south.  As you mentioned Arya possibly being a leader of her own pack and possibly located around the Riverlands or Riverrun, but also Sansa is now in connection with the Vale and the whole possible Vale lords conspiring to bring down Littlefinger and there is suspicion they know who Alayne really is.  The knights of the Vale have yet to be touched by the wars and will likely be an important addition to turn the tide.  Plus the Rhoyces have ties to the Starks and First Men in the past through marriage.  Also, I read a post where Sansa has been connected to bats (sigil of House Whent) through Catelyn's mother, Whent's being the former lords of Harrenhal.  Harrenhal belonging now to Littlefinger, her "father."  Sansa was described as a "wolf with bat wings" after fleeing the purple wedding.  There's a whole post detailing the Whent / Harrenhal / bat connection that describes it way better than I can.  Harrenhal is the original seat of kings and may be again later.  Northern culture may spread to almost half the realm in the end.   

Also with Arya marrying a king... maybe not a literal king, but someone with king's blood.  I'll just leave it at that 

 

I too like the imagery of Jon's Ice severing the north from the south executioner style upon the Neck. Arya would be the intermediary between north and south. Good theory!

[The Fattest Leech]

@Feather Crystal I’m so glad to hear you are enjoying this here parallel. At the moment I can only peek and give short answers (work) but I can’t wait to get back to this later this evening. 

And yeah, @Blue-Eyed Wolf is a great  contributor here. 

[Melifeather]

I have a musing about greyscale that I'm just gonna plop here...

The Grey King was said to have ruled the Ironborn for 1000 years before he descended to be with the Drowned God. I have been theorizing that the Grey King and the Nights King were the same person - a historic story told from two different sides. How strange that his title is "grey" and how his grey appearance might possibly be connected to greyscale.

Wights are inactive during daylight hours, but at night when the cold air rises - a magical cold wind - they rise and walk. Greyscale is contagious and is passed through touch by an infected person, but the original infection was borne on the "humorous" fog - a magical fog. It seems to me that the two "diseases" have a lot in common, and they feel like two sides of the same coin...one infects the dead causing them to rise as if alive, while the other infects the living trapping them inside a slowly hardening body. And maybe even preventing death? Which could explain how the Grey King lived so long?

I've also asserted upthread that I believe the wildlings are descendants of the same First Men that also became the Ironborn, and perhaps migrated to Westeros from the same area as the Rhoynar. Their common connections to water and magic seems suspect. Is it possible that greyscale might be the same disease that raises the dead beyond the Wall?

[Melifeather]

Okay! I've completed page two!

I loved the discussion of Jon and his connections to Odin, and I'm quite on board with this. Two questions: Have you considered that Ghost's physical appearance and Jon's bastardy could be Bloodraven 2.0? I'm wondering now if Ghost is actually Bloodraven in direwolf form? Secondly, isn't it possible that when Jon's eye was full of blood that his vision was obstructed? I'm coming from the position that the wildlings are the Others, so while Jon thinks he's viewing the wildlings as nothing more than people just like himself, he is still blind to what they are: the Others. Only when he actually loses an eye will he be filled with knowledge.

I've already brought up the theory that the wildlings are the same First Men connected to the Ironborn, and that Winterfell used to be their home. The watery walls are a fantastic observation! And I might point out that the lower levels of the crypts are warded with iron bars...for good reason. The dead are the defeated. Winterfell got its name from defeating these ice magic practicing First Men.

Onward to page 3!

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/29/2018 at 2:59 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Okay! I've completed page two!

Whew! That's some work. I have about an hourish and I am going to try and catch up with you now.

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I loved the discussion of Jon and his connections to Odin, and I'm quite on board with this. Two questions: Have you considered that Ghost's physical appearance and Jon's bastardy could be Bloodraven 2.0? I'm wondering now if Ghost is actually Bloodraven in direwolf form?

Could be. I reeeally hesitate to jump on the train of "when in doubt, Bloodraven did it", I just think the idea is wildly overdone in the fandom forums. However, IF there is a case to where Bloodraven is engaged with an animal in some way, Ghost may be it. Not simply because of coloring, but because of the connection that Jon realizes himself when linking Ghost to the trees and old gods (just like Jon is!).

I do believe that Jon and Bran will end up working together, and that Bran will maybe communicate with Jon if not through dreams, then maybe through Ghost if they are both using Ghost at the same time. I have to bring the details here, but that scene in ACOK(?) where Jon is having a wolf dream and yet Bran is also there as a tree leads me to believe that this co-habitating may possibly be possible.

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Secondly, isn't it possible that when Jon's eye was full of blood that his vision was obstructed?

I fully, fully admit that the way I presented this part comes off as a little clunky. There is something there, and in the recent discussion thread about "cup of ice and fire" makes me rethink this blood-eye issue. I will have to go back and look at it all again, but it definitely could be something else like we see in the House of Undying + Euron, but Jon is able to come away from it in tack (or something like that ).

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I'm coming from the position that the wildlings are the Others, so while Jon thinks he's viewing the wildlings as nothing more than people just like himself, he is still blind to what they are: the Others.

I have to try and get in to this theory a little more to understand what trail you seem to have found, and as such, I don't feel I can comment fully just yet.

Quick question about it; are you saying that the "ice people" Others are the ancestors of the free folk and iron born? Or just one or t'other?

I tend to think the Others are a third race, and one that we just simply do not know enough of in the main series to judge correctly. But that could just be me . One reason I think so (NOT the full reason) is that GRRM uses a likeness to them in other stories he has written, but here in ASOIAF they are native (not aliens). There is a brief mention of the in the World book (second below): 

   Six hundred standard years ago, a creature known in legend as The White landed among the Croan'dhenni in the first starship they had ever seen. If the descriptions in Croan'dhic folklore can be trusted, then The White was of no race I have ever encountered, nor heard of, though I am widely traveled. This does notsurprise me. The manrealm and its thousand worlds (perhaps there are twice that number, perhaps less, but who can keep count?), the scattered empires of Fyndii and Damoosh and g'vhern and N'or Talush, and all the other sentients who are known to us or rumored of, all this together, all those lands and stars and lives colored by passion and blood and history, sprawling proudly across the light-years, across the black gulfs that only the volcryn ever truly know, all of this, all of our little universe... it is only an island of light surrounded by a vastly greater area of greyness and that fades ultimately into the black of ignorance. And this only in one small galaxy, whose uttermost reaches we shall never know, should we endure a billion years. Ultimately, the sheer size of things will defeat us, however we may strive or scream; that truth I am sure of.
   But I do not defeat easily. That is my pride, my last and only pride; it is not much to face the darkness with, but it is something. When the end comes, I will meet it raging.
   The White was like me in that. It was a frog from a pond beyond ours, a place lost in the grey where our little lights have not yet shone on the dark waters. Whatever sort of creature it might have been, whatever burdens of history and evolution it carried in its genes, it was nonetheless my kin. Both of us were angry mayflies, moving restlessly from star to star because we, alone among our fellows, knew how short our day. Both of us found a destiny of sorts in these swamps of Croan'dhenni.
   The White came utterly alone to this place, set down its little starship (I have seen the remains: a toy, that ship, a trinket, but with lines that are utterly alien to me, and deliciously chilling), and, exploring, found something.
   Something older than itself, and stranger.

   The Artifact.
   Whatever strange instruments it had, whatever secret alien knowledge it possessed, whatever instinct bid it enter; all lost now, and none of it matters. The White knew, knew something the native sentients had never guessed, knew the purpose of the Artifact, knew how it might be activated. For the first time in - a thousand years? A million? For the first time in a long while, the game of mind was played. And The White changed, emerged from the Artifact as something else, as the first. The first mindlord. The first master of life and death. The first painlord. The first lifelord. The titles are born, worn, discarded, forgotten, and none of them matter.
   Whatever I am, The White was the first.

World of Ice and Fire:

A possibility arises for a third race to have inhabited the Seven Kingdoms in the Dawn Age, but it is so speculative that it need only be dealt with briefly. Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited. If true, the nature and origins of the chair's makers are a mystery. Maester Kirth in his collection of ironborn legends, Songs the Drowned Men Sing, has suggested that the chair was left by visitors from across the Sunset Sea, but there is no evidence for this, only speculation.

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Only when he actually loses an eye will he be filled with knowledge.

Maybe, but I don't think this has to be literal and it probably varies depending on the person. Killing the boy would do the trick.

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I've already brought up the theory that the wildlings are the same First Men connected to the Ironborn, and that Winterfell used to be their home. The watery walls are a fantastic observation! And I might point out that the lower levels of the crypts are warded with iron bars...for good reason. The dead are the defeated. Winterfell got its name from defeating these ice magic practicing First Men.

Oooh FC, keep reading. There may be some info you find interesting on page 6(?) regarding Winterfell and winter is coming.

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Onward to page 3!

Don't forget to take a snack break.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

On 3/28/2018 at 11:44 AM, Feather Crystal said:

  She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

  Only death can pay for life.

  And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

  The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

The ice magic that the Others practice requires blood sacrifice as well, along with the elements of water and air, but I think Craster's sons are a red herring. His story is meant to make us think that "children" are being sacrificed to make white walkers. The tale of the Nights Kings crime of "sacrificing to the Others" also makes us immediately think of children, however I assert that since the two opposing sides of Children versus humans are working two opposing types of magic, each side has to sacrifice the other in order to work their respective magic. Conclusion: I believe the Others were sacrificing Children (of the Forest) to create their white walker soldiers.

First horn= rangers, second horn= wildling, third horn= Others (or maybe lowercase others )

 

I cannot remember, and I have not rechecked yet, but did I add this this thread my thoughts about Tormund be a horn of Winter? I will paste it below:

This is great. Nice finds! I like the notion that Tormund "Horn-blower" gave Jon a set of golden twins when the wildlings pay homage to Jon as they pass through the wall.

I always wondered if Tormund wasn't the horn himself. Prophecy and the details that go along with it are always foggy and often misinterpreted in this story. ADDING: If there is a literal horn that is needed, I think it is the one Sam has with him down south right now (for many reasons). So we have Tormund with gold bands marked with runes, and later at the pink letter reading in the very symbolic shieldhall, we get Tormund blowing a horn twice. And then Jon asks for a "horn" just before he is stabbed. Well, what if that horn Jon gets is the back up and support of Tormund Horn-blower at this time???

In Ragnarok, one of the final signs that the world is about to end is the crowing of three "cocks". HAR! Have you seen the size of Tormund's member???

With the mutiny happening, that means the brothers have fallen apart and not stood together, which means the "wall falls". When the wall falls, the Others can pass. Tormund being the third "horn blast" at the mutiny while the wall falls is the sign that the Others can now pass. The last thing Jon feels at his mutiny is, "only the cold." This could be the sign that the Others are indeed now on their way.

• If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends.
• Jon Snow glanced toward the stockade. Two walls were down, a third falling fast.
• A wall is only as good as the men defending it.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

The Shieldhall went mad.

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.

 

~~~and then while out in the yard just before the mutiny stabbing~~~

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him." Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife …"

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"I never did, but see you don't go spreading that about. Tormund Giantsbane has a better ring to it than Tormund Giantsbabe, and that's the honest truth o' it."

"So how did you come by your other names?" Jon asked. "Mance called you the Horn-Blower, didn't he? Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Husband to Bears, Father to Hosts?" It was the horn blowing he particularly wanted to hear about, but he dared not ask too plainly. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Is that where they had come from, them and their mammoths? Had Mance Rayder found the Horn of Joramun, and given it to Tormund Thunderfist to blow?

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"What if we refuse the offer?" Jon had no doubt that they would. The Old Bear might at least have listened, though he would have balked at the notion of letting thirty or forty thousand wildlings loose on the Seven Kingdoms. But Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt would dismiss the notion out of hand.

"If you refuse," Mance Rayder said, "Tormund Giantsbane will sound the Horn of Winter three days hence, at dawn."

 

According to the most accurate to date Timeline, the free folk have been at CB for three days, and that is when the assassination attempt happened. 

 

~~~You know nothing, Jon Snow!

 

 

On 3/28/2018 at 11:44 AM, Feather Crystal said:

The ice magic that the Others practice requires blood sacrifice as well, along with the elements of water and air, but I think Craster's sons are a red herring. His story is meant to make us think that "children" are being sacrificed to make white walkers. The tale of the Nights Kings crime of "sacrificing to the Others" also makes us immediately think of children, however I assert that since the two opposing sides of Children versus humans are working two opposing types of magic, each side has to sacrifice the other in order to work their respective magic. Conclusion: I believe the Others were sacrificing Children (of the Forest) to create their white walker soldiers.

This is quite the theme, isn't it?

 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/28/2018 at 8:54 AM, Feather Crystal said:

The parallels to Nymeria are quite striking - I am on board, but I have questions. I've finished the first OP and have a lot to go yet, so maybe you've already answered this down thread, but do you think the wildlings are of Rhoynar origin?

I think the current day free folk are a culmination of a few waves of "first men". I think the term first men is a catchall for the varied sources of people that came in to Westeros with their many different religions and such.

This is one reason why I think it may be a tad pointless to try and narrow down fantasy genetics to the N'th degree to make any sort of "purity" claim. It seems the only families that genetics is carefully constructed by the author to mean anything are the main families of the story; Stark, Lannister, Targaryen, and even Baratheon because of ties to two of the three main families.

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Because I've really wondered if the Ironborn came from that same area too. Their whole lifestyle is built around the sea and a watery god. The Rhoynar practiced water magic, but somehow could not withstand fire. 

True, the Rhoynar, like so many other cultures, ran from the fire or were enslaved over and over again. If GRRM really considers the dragons the "nuclear deterrent", then I guess no one had the ability to fight them on that same level?

I will say that I won't be surprised if Euron ends up summoning a kraken. He is doing an awful lot of religious and blood/baby sacrifice, and  "blooding the waters" (feeding the gods) other ways, in his arc. This would be the water magic to fight against the fire magic... IF it even happens.

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Sometimes I wonder if GRRM's "moon maiden" is an "Eve" (of sorts) reincarnated through the loops of history.

Oh, hey now, have you been sneak reading my new theory I am working on??? Remeber, Eve was the second wife of Adam, the first being Lilith I have quite a bit worked up on this (working on it since last summer '17) and maybe I will post it one day. I am sure many people will hate it right off the bat without even reading much of it.

I just want to add, and pardons here because if I remember correctly yo are not an RLJ follower but read me out,  that Elia follows the first moon, and Lyanna the second moon, and Rhaegar the sun. Aegon/Young Griff is the Mummer's Dragon (whether he is real or Blackfyre), and that means Jon is the Sun's son. This also fits the Liltih-Eve-Adam fiasco.

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Could be. I reeeally hesitate to jump on the train of "when in doubt, Bloodraven did it", I just think the idea is wildly overdone in the fandom forums. However, IF there is a case to where Bloodraven is engaged with an animal in some way, Ghost may be it. Not simply because of coloring, but because of the connection that Jon realizes himself when linking Ghost to the trees and old gods (just like Jon is!).

Funny, because I'm not even familiar with the "Bloodraven did it" threads. I mainly stick to the Heresy thread and then over at my own home on Hobaw. But I don't think I'm "blaming" Bloodraven for anything. I'm just wondering why there is such strong imagery between Ghost and him?

 

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do believe that Jon and Bran will end up working together, and that Bran will maybe communicate with Jon if not through dreams, then maybe through Ghost if they are both using Ghost at the same time. I have to bring the details here, but that scene in ACOK(?) where Jon is having a wolf dream and yet Bran is also there as a tree leads me to believe that this co-habitating may possibly be possible.

I was going to comment on this, because when Bran came to Jon - and just a quick aside, IMO this is the very definition of "flying"...coming to people in their dreams...anyways - when Bran comes to Jon - Jon was dreaming about being Ghost. He wasn't actively warging Ghost until Bran touches his third eye, which then opened and he saw what Ghost was seeing.

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quick question about it; are you saying that the "ice people" Others are the ancestors of the free folk and iron born? Or just one or t'other?

White walkers are "birthed" just like Melisandre birthed that shadow of Stannis. 

31 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I tend to think the Others are a third race, and one that we just simply do not know enough of in the main series to judge correctly. But that could just be me . One reason I think so (NOT the full reason) is that GRRM uses a likeness to them in other stories he has written, but here in ASOIAF they are native (not aliens):

I could be wrong, but at the moment I think the white walkers are created by the wildlings, and Val likely knows how to work this magic. She's the inversion to Melisandre. The white walkers are (white) shadows of some of the wildling men, but to work the magic she needs to sacrifice the blood of Children, and then combine the elements of water and air, but rather than dissipating like Stannis's shadow did, the white walkers are preserved until the sun touches them or the magic spell is broke with dragonglass/obsidian.

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I always wondered if Tormund wasn't the horn himself. Prophecy and the details that go along with it are always foggy and often misinterpreted in this story. ADDING: If there is a literal horn that is needed, I think it is the one Sam has with him down south right now (for many reasons). So we have Tormund with gold bands marked with runes, and later at the pink letter reading in the very symbolic shieldhall, we get Tormund blowing a horn twice. And then Jon asks for a "horn" just before he is stabbed. Well, what if that horn Jon gets is the back up and support of Tormund Horn-blower at this time???

This may not be a direct reply to Tormund Horn-Blower, but that horn that Jon thought wouldn't work when he blew it, because it was cracked....it cannot be cracked too badly if he thought Sam could drink from it. What if it's just because HE's not the one that should or could blow it? Maybe Tormund would know how to blow it?

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

With the mutiny happening, that means the brothers have fallen apart and not stood together, which means the "wall falls". When the wall falls, the Others can pass. Tormund being the third "horn blast" at the mutiny while the wall falls is the sign that the Others can now pass. The last thing Jon feels at his mutiny is, "only the cold." This could be the sign that the Others are indeed now on their way.

• If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends.
• Jon Snow glanced toward the stockade. Two walls were down, a third falling fast.
• A wall is only as good as the men defending it.

I am probably one of very few who think the Wall doesn't have to fall down in order for the Others to come through. They're already through - Jon and Stannis allowed it. That being said I do think the Wall is "blowing" down, exiting through the underground tunnels, and it's exhaust is in the form of the blizzard emanating out of Winterfell. The magic that was once sealed in the Wall has been released, and so the Wall will eventually blow away. Mirri's words to Dany “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves." are in reference to when the Wall blows away. North of the Wall is the sea and the Wall is the mountain. In the winter the air is actually very dry, and moisture is wicked away and freeze dried.

 

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Shieldhall went mad.

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.

Of course it went mad! The wildlings view Winterfell as their home or at least the home of their lost king and kingdom. The home stretch is in sight and ousting Ramsay will earn them back the castle. Whoa to Jon who thinks of Winterfell as the Stark's. 

[Melifeather]

39 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, hey now, have you been sneak reading my new theory I am working on??? Remeber, Eve was the second wife of Adam, the first being Lilith I have quite a bit worked up on this (working on it since last summer '17) and maybe I will post it one day. I am sure many people will hate it right off the bat without even reading much of it.

I haven't been sneaking any peeks, but you've got my interest wetted! And I cannot believe I've never heard of Lilith! Oh do tell! I will absolutely love it like a fat kid loves cake!

39 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I just want to add, and pardons here because if I remember correctly yo are not an RLJ follower but read me out,  that Elia follows the first moon, and Lyanna the second moon, and Rhaegar the sun. Aegon/Young Griff is the Mummer's Dragon (whether he is real or Blackfyre), and that means Jon is the Sun's son. This also fits the Liltih-Eve-Adam fiasco.

I do see the imagery and connections to Rhaegar, but I think they are a feint, and this is more so through the study of the titled chapters and working on the inversion (mirrored) theory. If you read the Queenmaker chapter with mirrors in mind the story of Lyanna's kidnapping literally jumps off the page. That familiar old dream - and fever dream - of Ned's is one of Bloodraven's manipulations. That is why Ned is so confused. Added to that is how the history loop was realigned during the Year of the False Spring and historical events repeated so close together with the duplication of events that occur in winter.

I understand that "Bael" can be anyone - even Rhaegar - but right now I believe his father is a wildling, but that Lyanna was also abducted by Robert in disguise and raped "hundreds of times". In the early part of the Rebellion after Robert defeats the houses around Summerhal, he returns to Storms End for some unknown reason. I think he pretends he found her, brought her back to Storms End, and then tells Ned where to find her. In any case, his father is still alive. He has to be. Jon is the Bastard O'Winterfell and as such he will kill his father unknowingly. Why else are we given this story?