The Mammoth Vanishes Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Hey forum folk, This has probably been discussed lots already but if Ned had made it to the wall, and Robb complied and bent the knee etc, surely the battle against the white walkers would go very differently no? (The general set up of influential lords at the wall would only help in then upcoming winter/long night) Mormont - as LC Jon and the other recruits - training up, doing their thing. Ned - in a senior position. He'd also be able to recruit more northerns to the NW due to his status, and Robb being at winter fell wouldn't hurt (and Cat to the Tully's etc). Benjen - at the wall beside Ned or MIA (unsure on timeline) Maester Aemon - bossing things as per. seems like a much better set-up IMO. my timeline knowledge isn't great but when does Jon discover the wights, before or after Neds execution? Either way having Eddard at the wall would surely help the preparations against the others. Im interested to read people's general thoughts on if Ned made it to the wall (how would events unfold differently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 I think Benjen was missing prior to Ned's execution. Ned's death is really the point-of-no-return for everything that happens in Westeros in this series. Up until the moment Joffrey orders the execution there's a chance things can stay sane. After that, no dice. That said, there would still be plenty of wrinkles to deal with. For one thing, Ned isn't assured a senior position in the Watch. He's wise and quiet enough to keep from attracting much resentment in general, but there would be plenty of people like Ser Aliser to be a pain in the rear over both his part in the Rebellion and his attempt to oust Joffrey. How things play out is going to depend on a number of things. Does Ned go with on the Great Ranging? Does he make it back alive? Does anyone believe him about what happened, or does he get accused of having led the mutiny against LC Mormont in order to take command of the Watch himself? Add to that the information about the Others attacking at the Fist, and people might think he made it up to bolster his claim to the command. Granted, Ned would probably be the first to say he's not interested in being LC, but if he got elected anyway there are several who would think he was lying. I think Ned would have been a good guy to have around for kids like Sam. And I think he and Donal Noye would have gotten along well. Mormont and Maester Aemon would have been happy to have him and treated him with respect, but that would have led to class division complaints in an organization where all are supposedly equal. Ned having previously been Mormont's overlord, some of the NW would assume the worst of any partiality the LC showed to the new recruit. Now, if Ned can manage to navigate the treacherous waters of NW politics and in-fighting, he can make a difference in the Northern response to the Watch's call for aid. Robb in particular, as lord of Winterfell, will be of use. But with Joffrey on the throne, things are bound to get screwed up. Let's say Robb puts out a call for fighting men throughout the north, and the IT assume he's going to mount a rebellion. Anyone could see where that would end. One possible benefit to Ned being alive and at the Wall is that it would potentially change things for Stannis and Renly. Stannis of course would still insist on being king, but he'd have Ned's letter and probably no issue with showing it to Renly...of course that doesn't mean Renly does what he should but at least there's a chance. Without the north rising for Robb, Stannis might actually be able to claim the throne. With Stannis on the throne, the threat from the Others would be taken seriously, courtesty of everyone's favorite Red Witch. Stannis might even want to lead the fight personally against the Others, given that Mel's been telling him all this time that he's destined to defeat them. That would make Renly happy, because it would increase his chances of becoming king (that is assuming he hasn't been shadow-murdered in this version). Catelyn and Robb would still be alive. Arya might have actually been able to get home. Sansa would probably still be stuck in King's Landing, betrothed to Joffrey. The Reeds might well have shown up and taken Bran north of the Wall anyway. It would have been up to Robb to decide that issue and if they had word from Ned about the Others, I think that would sway Robb to decide in favor of letting Bran go, as he might be the key to staving off total destruction. There would be no Freys in Winterfell, and Robb might be able to marry without dying for it. Theon would never get snookered into betraying Robb, which means Balon might not declare himself king of anything. Euron might even stay away, since there's no particular chaos for him to profit from. Dany's arc would remain mostly the same. At least up until her path would intersect with Tyrion's. That might have to change. But Barristan going to her would still happen. I'm assuming someone would still poison Joffrey, so Tyrion still gets blamed, but with the timing difference Oberyn might not be there, so he might still be alive. So maybe he would be sent to get Dany instead of Quentyn. That could be fun. Littlefinger, if able to smuggle Sansa out, would make sure she got to Winterfell, gaining back some of Cat's goodwill. He still has to marry Lysa though, so he may keep Sansa hiding out temporarily, and then send for Cat once Lysa's finished her flight through the Moon Door. Sandor, without having met up with Arya anywhere, might head north and offer to protect his favorite little bird in exchange for not being killed on sight. It's hard to say what all might change in Dorne. Stannis would still have come after the Lannisters, so Myrcella probably would still end up at the Water Gardens. Arianne would still make the same mistakes. But her cousins might not have their father's death to avenge and thus might not be as eager to support her plan to crown Myrcella. Just because Oberyn talked about it doesn't mean he meant anything other than making the Lannisters nervous. Can't really think of how else it would change, since so much of it goes back to Ned's beheading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Ned's presence isn't going to change much. His position as universally loved Lord of Winterfell certainly didn't boost the Night's Watch numbers. Certainly there were barely any members of prominent northern families in the Watch when the novels took over. His presence as a convicted traitor isn't going to make people decide they want to join up. Why? The diminishing core of the Night's Watch is made up of criminal conscripts who decide a life of forced service in a frozen hellhole is better than facing the consequences of whatever crimes they committed. Throwing in the disgraced/unwanted noble now and again isn't enough to offset that. The novels proved that much, both Jeor Mormont and Jon Snow, despite being paragons of virtue, were both murdered by their own men. A crippled Ned Stark isn't going to change the nature of the watch, only that he's going to be on the ship as it sinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 On 20-8-2016 at 6:09 PM, The Mammoth Vanishes said: Hey forum folk, This has probably been discussed lots already but if Ned had made it to the wall, and Robb complied and bent the knee etc, surely the battle against the white walkers would go very differently no? (The general set up of influential lords at the wall would only help in then upcoming winter/long night) Mormont - as LC Jon and the other recruits - training up, doing their thing. Ned - in a senior position. He'd also be able to recruit more northerns to the NW due to his status, and Robb being at winter fell wouldn't hurt (and Cat to the Tully's etc). Benjen - at the wall beside Ned or MIA (unsure on timeline) Maester Aemon - bossing things as per. seems like a much better set-up IMO. my timeline knowledge isn't great but when does Jon discover the wights, before or after Neds execution? Either way having Eddard at the wall would surely help the preparations against the others. Im interested to read people's general thoughts on if Ned made it to the wall (how would events unfold differently). Well, for one I do tend to point out that Ned reaching the Wall is completely hypothetical. His shin was crushed. Ned was having signs of sepsis in the dungeons by the time Varys visited him (fever, dehydrated and hallucinations). That implies blood poisoning. Ned was perhaps only a day away from septic shock. There's a reason why George included the man who died of septic shock (can include longue disease symptoms) in the cart on the Kingsroad. And let's not forget the hell that road became. Ned would simply never have made it. In that sense, Joff did show him mercy - spared him further suffering, and torture on the road. Not even a ship or a maester could have saved him anymore. They don't have antibiotics. That said, for the realm it would have been better if he had died on the road, away from KL. Robb couldn't have blamed Cersei and Joffrey for it. When the wights are brought in, Jon notices something's wrong, and learns of the news of Robert having died and Ned being arrested. He's not dead yet though. He only learns of Ned Stark's death after he's given Longclaw by Mormont and he's been resting for days on milk of the poppy for his burn wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said: Ned's presence isn't going to change much. His position as universally loved Lord of Winterfell certainly didn't boost the Night's Watch numbers. Certainly there were barely any members of prominent northern families in the Watch when the novels took over. His presence as a convicted traitor isn't going to make people decide they want to join up. Why? The majority of Bloodraven's Ravens Teeth archers joined the Nights Watch after Brynden Rivers was sent to the Wall for murdering Aenys Blackfire. Why would it be surprising for men loyal to Eddard (in the North or otherwise, like those in the Brotherhood without Banners) to voluntarily join the Night's Watch with Ned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said: The majority of Bloodraven's Ravens Teeth archers joined the Nights Watch after Brynden Rivers was sent to the Wall for murdering Aenys Blackfire. Why would it be surprising for men loyal to Eddard (in the North or otherwise, like those in the Brotherhood without Banners) to voluntarily join the Night's Watch with Ned? Who exactly would these people be? The Brotherhood wasn't particularly loyal to Ned. They didn't join with Robb during the War of the Five Kings, I can't see any reason for them going North to the wall, save perhaps to stay their execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: Who exactly would these people be? The Brotherhood wasn't particularly loyal to Ned. They didn't join with Robb during the War of the Five Kings, I can't see any reason for them going North to the wall, save perhaps to stay their execution. You didn't answer my question, but the reason I used the example of Bloodraven's Raven's Teeth is because they specifically joined the Nights Watch with Bloodraven inspite of his crime and sinister reputation (even though he was guilty, unlike Ned) out of pure respect and loyalty. Ned actually has a sterling reputation and we know he has plenty of men in his service willing to go to war and die for him. The BWB may or may not be loyal to Eddard Stark, but again: Why isn't it possible or likely that other (presumably) Northmen would join the Watch with Ned simply out of loyalty, in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Just now, Oakhearts head said: You didn't answer my question, but the reason I used the example of Bloodraven's Raven's Teeth is because they specifically joined the Nights Watch with Bloodraven inspite of his crime and sinister reputation (even though he was guilty, unlike Ned) out of pure respect and loyalty. Ned actually has a sterling reputation and we know he has plenty of men in his service willing to go to war and die for him. The BWB may or may not be loyal to Eddard Stark, but again: Why isn't it possible or likely that other (presumably) Northmen would join the Watch with Ned simply out of loyalty, in your opinion? One, we've yet to see any mass of actual volunteers for the Watch during this generation, even in the wake of the few respected northerners who did join. Benjen Stark and Jeor Mormont being the primary, and really only, examples. Two, the Northerner's loyalty is less to Ned and more to House Stark. There's not much reason they would willingly exile themselves when they could honorably serve Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: One, we've yet to see any mass of actual volunteers for the Watch during this generation, even in the wake of the few respected northerners who did join. Benjen Stark and Jeor Mormont being the primary, and really only, examples. Two, the Northerner's loyalty is less to Ned and more to House Stark. There's not much reason they would willingly exile themselves when they could honorably serve Robb. Bloodraven and Maester Aemon only went to the Wall 65 years prior to A Game of Thrones, so the Watch was well and truly into it's decline when they joined. Also, Ned is the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He has more influence and inspires more widespread loyalty than either Jeor Mormont or his younger brother. And we'll have to agree to disagree on loyalty to House Stark or Ned specifically. I think it's both. We have this quote in A Dance with Dragons. Quote Robin Peasebury: "This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?" Morgan Liddle: "Ned's girl" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 If Ned's guards at the Tower of the Hand had lived and not been slaughtered, they would probably have followed Ned to the Wall. The others nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 1 hour ago, sweetsunray said: If Ned's guards at the Tower of the Hand had lived and not been slaughtered, they would probably have followed Ned to the Wall. The others nope. Who are the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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