The Seven In Human Form

[Shawn Skinner]

 

Just Finished The Books First Full Thread 

In the world of a Song of Ice and Fire there are many different God(s). They range from strange fire like beings such as "the Lord of Light/R'hllor" to tree gods in the North  "the Old Gods".  The region ruled by the Andal  people worship tend to worship the Faith of Seven or the seven who are one, which represent different aspects of the world. The Father for guidance, the Mother for compassion, the Maiden for virtue, the Crone for wisdom, the Warrior for strength, the Smith for labour, and the Stranger for death. Now during  Tyrion Lannister's voyage to meet Queen Daeneys his ship passing by "Andalos" his ancestoral home where he his told the seven gods once walked along side man. Given that you first believe the Seven exist, what if when the Andals left "Andalos" the gods came with them. Naturally it begs the question are the Seven still walking in human form in the novels/and if they are who are they?

The Faith of Seven, is highly mirrored by the real life belief of Christianity and other western religions to help mirror the western like people the Andals. Using this knowledge it makes sense to see the followers of the seven in the story who go through the extra-ordinary usually experience them through dreams/visions (Jamie/Tyrion//Several Targaryen/Brienne). These dreams often warn of the future the past or reveal a personal truth. This God(s) tends to  prefers to guide than to act often talking a back-row seat.

Jamie's Mother: During Jamie time in the river-lands sometime after the Blackfish incident when his character was going through a rapid change morally, Jamie begins to slowly sink into depression. His father had died , he realized he single handily {:P} destroy the white cloaks reputation, lost his evil son that he still really loved, and found out his sister was cheating on him/ using him for years. Then what happens Jamie gets a dream where he is visited by his actual Mother. This is strange because in Jamie's dreams he always has both hands which "The Mother" points out  he only has one and also that Jamie mother died when he was very young and Jamie didn't even remember what she looked like. Jamie mother then basically crys about all his father wanted was for Jamie to be a "knight" and Cersei a "Queen". THIS IS HUGE! Word play at its finest. Jamie then replys that they are Knights and Queens and The Mother turns her back to Jamie. GODLY Vision that revealed a personal truth may have predicted the future, and drove into the past (CHECK)! I 

Old Nan: The Crone! For starters she is way to old, widowed probably, has no teeth and sorry to say is crone like. Old Nan was called Old Nan when Ned stark was still a boy; noone knows how old she is and said to be the oldest person alive in Winterfell/possibly the world, however given Aemon Targaryen being around one hundred who knows. Second "the Crone" is the source of wisdom, so if manifested  why not into a famous storyteller like Old Nan, this combined with her stories to Bran about the others, ice spiders,and the long night raises an eyebrow. Then her grandson is Hodor who  has displayed psychic powers so powerful it turned his mind to mush which as far as I've seen (going off show on this scene) no in the novels or show seem to have displayed.  Finally out of all the villagers that were clearly stated to have died Old Nan was not one of them. 

The First Faceless Man or one of he Faceless Men: In the House of Black and White you can find the Temple of the many faced God. Here priest worship Death itself calling themselves noone and trending to work in the shadows. NO Proof here but maybe future books will prove this one because the Faceless have magic so where is it coming from. But I think if the Stranger was in human form he would have to be a Faceless man or some near death on day to day like a gravedigger

What are your thoughts on this theory and who do you think may have been or be one of the Seven. It may sound weird but authors do hided stuff like this all the time. It all comes down to if the God(s) in Game of thrones are revealed to be real which in the finale fight may just happen suddenly all that lore makes for a hella good HBO EP or Chapter in the servies.

 

#ICESPIDER/Dragons/Wolf/Giant/Fire Worms/Zombies vs People with really sharp sticks in the cold 

 

[Orphalesion]

On 07/01/2017 at 9:39 AM, Shawn Skinner said:

 

Just Finished The Books First Full Thread 

In the world of a Song of Ice and Fire there are many different God(s).

 

You phrase that like the World of ASoIaF is unique because of that. I don't know how much you read, but in fantasy worlds this is pretty common and it's the worlds that have few/no religions and cults (such as Tolkine's universe) that are the exception. The religions in ASoIaF are actually pretty lifeless.

I don't like to point to things that GRRM has said in interviews because i very much believe those statements have the same relation to the actual text of the story as Tolkien's essays have to the world presented in LotR (as in, its stuff the respective author wants to be true about their world/story but that doesn't align with the extant text) but GRRM has said that "the gods will not become more involved with the plot than they already are" (that's the quote that's often misstated as hims saying that there are no gods at all on Planetos)

The trope of "God(s) walling alongside man" in an earlier age is common to several real life cultures, often used as a way to romanticize the past; in Abarahamic writing Adam and Eve started out as directly walking alongside God and even after the fall God continues to speak to directly to people until he suddenly stops at some port during Jacob's lifetime (iirc) and in later Hellenistic and Roman thought , the age when Kronos/Saturn ruled the world became the "Golden Age" when men and gods lived together and were hardlyt aware of their different natures.  The legend that teh Seven walked among men in Andalos could simply be just that; a legend that romanticizes a time before the Andals were cast from their ancestral lands and had to go through the trouble of conquering, and putting up with, a bunch of heathens that talk to trees. 

I do not believe that Joanna, Old Nan or the First Faceless Man are/were the Seven in human form. Also, Hodor doesn't have psychic powers, even on the show, what happened there was the work of Bran's growing powers as a Greenseer. Also consider that Old Nan is a follower of the Old Gods and the first Faceless Man could have followed any of the multitude of cults that exist in Essos/have existed in Essos.

Rather, the reason why you find similarities between these characters and the Seven is because the Seven are Archetypes of Medieval Society. Paragons ordinary people can, and are expected to emulate.

In Westeros the average woman is expected to start out as an embodiment of the Maiden, then grow into the Mother and end up as the Crone.  

Mean meanwhile are given roles to emulate depending on their station in society: Smith(Artisan/Worker), Warrior, Father(Ruler).

The Stranger meanwhile symbolizes the anxiety and uncertainty experienced when facing death, while the anonymity of the Faceless Men is a result of their origins as slaves and evolution into assassins - a coincidence. 

Even outside ASoIaF the trinity of Maiden-Mother-Crone, also known as the Three Faces of Eve is an universal concept that pops up around the world that originally highlighted the power of women as bringers of life.

The Three Faces of Adam meanwhile, are a less universal concept that saw more variation over time but that still can be made to align with the three male aspects of the Seven.

In the Religion of the Seven GRRM combined these ancient, real world religious themes with the Medieval idea of Ideals in Society an idea used in the real life Middle Ages to perpetuate the rigid structure of a society in which you were born into your lot in life rather than able to try and make your own fate.

So its really just broad, universal concepts combined with characters reacting to them in a realistic way rather than the Andal gods taking the form of Joanna Lannister/Old Nan/the first Faceless Man.

[hiemal]

On 1/8/2017 at 9:39 AM, Orphalesion said:

The Three Faces of Adam meanwhile, are a less universal concept that saw more variation over time but that still can be made to align with the three male aspects of the Seven.

 

Sounds gnostic. If so, consider this spitball:

The triple goddess is typically a lunar deity and in our world the lunar king and his cycle is antagonistic to or at least exclusive of the female lineup. However, in the Seven we have a triple god and a triple goddess- one for each moon- with a spare, the traveler from far places who is neither and both and perhaps a comet with a destiny?

[Orphalesion]

On 16/01/2017 at 1:17 AM, hiemal said:

Sounds gnostic. If so, consider this spitball:

The triple goddess is typically a lunar deity and in our world the lunar king and his cycle is antagonistic to or at least exclusive of the female lineup. However, in the Seven we have a triple god and a triple goddess- one for each moon- with a spare, the traveler from far places who is neither and both and perhaps a comet with a destiny?

I have already conversed extensively with LML in the past. Not until the books or GRRM flat out confirm them will I believe his theories. 

Also this isn't Gnostic, it's just very old imagery that was over the millennia used by many cultures. 

As to the moons and the triple goddess; actually, as far as Indo-European mythologies go, there is a lot of speculation that the majority of cultures had a male moon god and that the Greeks and Romans were the odd ones out, possibly under  Proto-Greek influence.

The triple goddess was a concept that was more widespread than female lunar deities, and more widespread than any "triple god", which is a very rare thing.

The closest thing I could recall from my own knowledge would be the Archaic Roman triad of Jupter (lordship/worship) Quirinus (war) and Mars (agriculture), the triad of the sons of Kronos Zeus (Heavens), Poseidon (Sea), Hades (Underworld) and the earliest attested proto-Germanic god names Teiwaz (Clear Skies, Sunshine) Donawaz (Rain and Thunder) and Wodanaz (Storms and Death)

Neither of these matches a lunar cycle. In fact his is the first time I hear of a male lunar cycle (is it something Native American or Far Eastern mythology? I'm not very familiar with either of those mythologies..) 

So many of the earliest trinities of goddesses are separate from the lunar cycle, but symbolize the cycle of fertility through a woman's life, which the Greeks later linked to the moon, an idea they spread to the Itlaic tribes through Megale Hellas. This is also why there are less male trios, a male can sire into his old age, the same fertile cycle doesn't exist here and male trinities tend to focus on different areas of society.

In any case in what way do you suggest to divide the twelve moons of a year among six gods so that a seventh remains? Two to each seems a bit arbitrary...  the moon phases? Again seems a bit arbitrary and odd considering the Westerosi do not appear to link the moons to the gods and the lack of a clear RL mythological parallel. Mani wasn't a triple god, neither were the various Egyptian moon gods or Sin.

I think it rather symbolizes that while "good little followers" of the Seven get their roles separated by sex (boys become artisans/rulers/warriors, girls become mommies) death is universal to men and women of all positions and is thus beyond sex or class.

The Seven are paragons you are expected to become and everybody becomes dead sooner or later...

They are not, in my opinion, a clue to some space opera subplot.

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

So many of the earliest trinities of goddesses are separate from the lunar cycle, but symbolize the cycle of fertility through a woman's life, which the Greeks later linked to the moon, an idea they spread to the Itlaic tribes through Megale Hellas. This is also why there are less male trios, a male can sire into his old age, the same fertile cycle doesn't exist here and male trinities tend to focus on different areas of society.

In any case in what way do you suggest to divide the twelve moons of a year among six gods so that a seventh remains? Two to each seems a bit arbitrary...  the moon phases? Again seems a bit arbitrary and odd considering the Westerosi do not appear to link the moons to the gods and the lack of a clear RL mythological parallel. Mani wasn't a triple god, neither were the various Egyptian moon gods or Sin.

I think it rather symbolizes that while "good little followers" of the Seven get their roles separated by sex (boys become artisans/rulers/warriors, girls become mommies) death is universal to men and women of all positions and is thus beyond sex or class.

The Seven are paragons you are expected to become and everybody becomes dead sooner or later...

They are not, in my opinion, a clue to some space opera subplot.

I hadn't considered that, nor the obvious (in hindsight, anyways ) many examples of non-moon related triads. A fit of lunacy, perhaps?

TBH, I hadn't thought that far ahead. I don't think we know enough about the Westerosi calendar to say for certain if they associate the months directly with any god or goddess- after all the Seven rose to prominence after the seasons were already out of kilter.

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, though. I'm not saying I'd put money on any particular theory as to the nature of the Seven as yet, but I'm also at least half-convinced that they are more than just the moral exemplars of a patriarchy reinforcing gender roles. It makes sense from a narrative standpoint either way, so I'm content to wallow in tinfoil until we get some more definitive answers.