That damn dagger

[SeaWitch]

What the hell was going through Petyr's mind when Cat dropped the dagger on the table? Re-reading that, the scene felt more like she was in the middle of a confrontation between them.  Varys knew about the dagger, and presumably had an idea of the original provenance. Petyr seems genuinely confused about why Cat is there, I think he wanted to work out if it was in response to Lysa's message.  To then have his knife dropped, with Varys present, smacks of someone watching to see how he jumps.  For the record, I'm on board with Joffrey being a sociopathic little asshole and sending the knife guy.  Petyr would not have armed someone with a knife that could be traced to him, or admitted to the thing if he did.  So, there must have been a moment of sheer rage/panic.

(Also, he's just set eyes on Cat after sixteen years and five kids. He's probably off balance there, too.)

I think the Starks were almost incidental to plans to remove the Lannisters.  They are the issue. Tyrion must have personally irritated Petyr at some point, or he's the one smart enough to catch the financial chicanery.  It's obvious it must be a Lannister involved with the attacks, he just picks the wrong one...or the most vulnerable one.  

So, this scene is Varys trying to work out what game Littlefinger is playing. And Petyr cheerfully rolling the dice.  But he must have been seething internally that someone's hauling him into this mess.  Relief that Lysa hasn't dropped him in it, giving way to a split second decision about owning up to prior ownership.  I wonder if there was a moment where he contemplated putting that knife through Varys' eye.  He's obviously very proficient with short blades.  Beaten with a long sword, yes, but tangling at close quarters might be a very different and much more dangerous prospect.

[Seams]

I'm starting to think about the need for a systematic analysis of hilts and pommels. (Maybe also sheaths.) I suspect that dagger with the dragonbone hilt is going to lead us to a Targaryen or someone of Valyrian origin. I realize that witness claims (possibly including some false claims) have put that dagger in the possession of non-Targs, and that dragon bone has been seen in other contexts in the books. I may be wrong, but I think GRRM is using hilts to give us clear connections to the person wielding the weapon.

Having said that, it might also be worth considering possible Targaryen background of the three characters said to have owned the knife at different points: King Robert, Littlefinger and Tyrion. Littlefinger said he lost the knife in a jousting bet to Tyrion; Tyrion says that he never bets against Jaime, so Littlefinger's story is therefore false. The dagger may also have been part of a large collection of weapons owned by Robert.

We know that Robert has Targaryen blood - this is a part of his claim to the Iron Throne, aside from his victory at the Ruby Ford.

I don't have a lot of evidence, but I suspect that Littlefinger might be a descendant of the Velaryon-Targ household.

And there has been some speculation in this forum about King Aerys impregnating Johanna Lannister, making him the biological father of Tyrion.

At the wedding feast where Joffrey demands that Tyrion give him a new wedding gift, and Tyrion suggests a daggger with a dragonbone handle, Joffrey rejects that and specifies that the dagger should match his new sword:

"You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

(ASoS, Sansa IV)

Skip this if you're not interested in GRRM's subtle use of words as clues, but Tyrion's utterance about the dragonbone hilt is followed immediately by Joffrey saying, "You" back to his uncle. I think this is a sign that Joffrey is identifying (for the reader) Tyrion as a Targaryen - the dragonbone hilt is not a match for Joff but it is for Uncle Imp. There are actually a lot of meaningful things in Joffrey's utterances and actions that carry hidden meanings, and I think this might be one of them.

So the dagger could have belonged to any or all of those three, in my current way of thinking, although I'm not sure who hired the catspaw. I know most people accept Tyrion and Jaime's hunch that it was Joff, but I don't see it. Part of the logic is that Joff thought he might impress Robert, but Joff was already punished and really humiliated by Robert for shooting a cat. I don't think he would try killing on a larger scale as a way to curry favor with his putative father.

Here are some other important questions to ask about the dagger incident: Who would want to burn the Stark library? Was that as much of a goal as the apparent attempt on Bran's life? Also, was the goal really to kill Bran? We know that Varys suffered a terrible knife attack when he was a boy. Could the same kind of castration attack have been planned for Bran? If so, was the special knife required for that apparent ritual mutilation? If you're right about Varys manipulating the situation to create a surprise confrontation of Littlefinger, maybe Varys was mad about the attempt to maim another kid the way he had been scarred for life.

[SeaWitch]

I think that knife did belong to Petyr at some point, simply because he was able to handle it so precisely.  It is a rare, expensive item, and finding it turning up in the hand of a grubby hired killer would be infuriating and insulting.  If the swords are heirlooms people can't buy, this blade must have a similar rarity - was he pushed into betting it? As a last remnant of some noble blood somewhere in his family, losing it would burn.

Varys was testing to see whether Petyr would admit to the knife, and who he'd throw under the bus for it.  I don't think he thought Petyr was dumb enough to be involved.  But at this point, Petyr might well be wondering very hard about Varys.

Tyrion seems to basically be telling Jeff he knows the kid was being a little psycho. That aborted utterance was probably "you know?" .  Killing Bran was maybe less about pleasing anyone, more that he'd been humiliated over sniggering about it.  Joffrey strikes me as the type to kill anything no longer perfect in his eyes.

Libraries burn well, if you are an illiterate peasant with a simple job to do.  Set fire to something a long way from your target.  I think that attack was exactly what it looked like.

edit: also, Varys was not expecting Petyr to point at Tyrion. He calls it 'meddling' when conferring with Illyrio. He seems to think the attack is all botched Lannister.  

[foxberlin]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Here are some other important questions to ask about the dagger incident: Who would want to burn the Stark library? Was that as much of a goal as the apparent attempt on Bran's life?

This always troubled me, too. Of course, books are easy to inflame but so is hay. Especially Tyrion saving a dragon book from being burned by taking it with him to the Wall is quite notable in that context.

[SeaWitch]

Horses are wealth, useful things. The bloke had also left his pay in the stables, and would presumably want a horse to escape on once the deed was done.  

Though it would be the height of piss-taking if one of the books accidentally saved is key to events.

[foxberlin]

On the eighteenth night of their journey, the wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. With Lord Eddard Stark’s permission, Tyrion had borrowed a few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

Tyrion reads about dragonbone during his journey. Back in Winterfell this was his reading:

Tyrion shut the heavy leatherbound cover on the book he was reading, a hundred -old discourse on the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester. (...) “I’m off to break my fast. See that you return the books to the shelves. Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry. Ayrmidon’s Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I’ve ever seen.”  

[SeaWitch]

Burning a tower of books to destroy certain knowledge, very 'The Name of the Rose'.

if it was just an opportune act of stupidity, that's worse.  The whole situation is odd and clumsy, as Varys says 'a mummer's farce'.

I can see Petyr setting off another event to set Stark and Lannister at odds, but not something so inept. Having a near-fatal accident in the vicinity of the Lannisters must have been jam for him, on the heels of Arryn's death.

 

 

 

[Traverys]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm starting to think about the need for a systematic analysis of hilts and pommels. (Maybe also sheaths.) I suspect that dagger with the dragonbone hilt is going to lead us to a Targaryen or someone of Valyrian origin. I realize that witness claims (possibly including some false claims) have put that dagger in the possession of non-Targs, and that dragon bone has been seen in other contexts in the books. I may be wrong, but I think GRRM is using hilts to give us clear connections to the person wielding the weapon.

Having said that, it might also be worth considering possible Targaryen background of the three characters said to have owned the knife at different points: King Robert, Littlefinger and Tyrion. Littlefinger said he lost the knife in a jousting bet to Tyrion; Tyrion says that he never bets against Jaime, so Littlefinger's story is therefore false. The dagger may also have been part of a large collection of weapons owned by Robert.

We know that Robert has Targaryen blood - this is a part of his claim to the Iron Throne, aside from his victory at the Ruby Ford.

I don't have a lot of evidence, but I suspect that Littlefinger might be a descendant of the Velaryon-Targ household.

And there has been some speculation in this forum about King Aerys impregnating Johanna Lannister, making him the biological father of Tyrion.

At the wedding feast where Joffrey demands that Tyrion give him a new wedding gift, and Tyrion suggests a daggger with a dragonbone handle, Joffrey rejects that and specifies that the dagger should match his new sword:

"You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

(ASoS, Sansa IV)

Skip this if you're not interested in GRRM's subtle use of words as clues, but Tyrion's utterance about the dragonbone hilt is followed immediately by Joffrey saying, "You" back to his uncle. I think this is a sign that Joffrey is identifying (for the reader) Tyrion as a Targaryen - the dragonbone hilt is not a match for Joff but it is for Uncle Imp. There are actually a lot of meaningful things in Joffrey's utterances and actions that carry hidden meanings, and I think this might be one of them.

So the dagger could have belonged to any or all of those three, in my current way of thinking, although I'm not sure who hired the catspaw. I know most people accept Tyrion and Jaime's hunch that it was Joff, but I don't see it. Part of the logic is that Joff thought he might impress Robert, but Joff was already punished and really humiliated by Robert for shooting a cat. I don't think he would try killing on a larger scale as a way to curry favor with his putative father.

Here are some other important questions to ask about the dagger incident: Who would want to burn the Stark library? Was that as much of a goal as the apparent attempt on Bran's life? Also, was the goal really to kill Bran? We know that Varys suffered a terrible knife attack when he was a boy. Could the same kind of castration attack have been planned for Bran? If so, was the special knife required for that apparent ritual mutilation? If you're right about Varys manipulating the situation to create a surprise confrontation of Littlefinger, maybe Varys was mad about the attempt to maim another kid the way he had been scarred for life.

You're probably on to something about his use of hilts and pommels (and, perhaps by extension, roundels on armor) in alluding to character. I'm just now getting into ideas of his use of other imagery such as jewels, colors, furs, etc. This post about Melisandre's identity being hinted at sparked my curiosity about this kind of thing in the series. It makes me admit these kinds of things are woven into the story if I have the patience to search. If you made the thread I'd contribute quotes during my current reread. 

My interpretation of Joffrey's response, particularly the "You . . .", was that he was going to respond to Tyrion's impudence but obviously regained his composure. It's interesting to note that he would even care if the secret got out, meaning he's smart enough to at least try to keep up appearances.

[Lord Wraith]

On 5/4/2017 at 5:38 AM, SeaWitch said:

What the hell was going through Petyr's mind when Cat dropped the dagger on the table? Re-reading that, the scene felt more like she was in the middle of a confrontation between them.  Varys knew about the dagger, and presumably had an idea of the original provenance. Petyr seems genuinely confused about why Cat is there, I think he wanted to work out if it was in response to Lysa's message.  To then have his knife dropped, with Varys present, smacks of someone watching to see how he jumps.  For the record, I'm on board with Joffrey being a sociopathic little asshole and sending the knife guy.  Petyr would not have armed someone with a knife that could be traced to him, or admitted to the thing if he did.  So, there must have been a moment of sheer rage/panic.

(Also, he's just set eyes on Cat after sixteen years and five kids. He's probably off balance there, too.)

I think the Starks were almost incidental to plans to remove the Lannisters.  They are the issue. Tyrion must have personally irritated Petyr at some point, or he's the one smart enough to catch the financial chicanery.  It's obvious it must be a Lannister involved with the attacks, he just picks the wrong one...or the most vulnerable one.  

So, this scene is Varys trying to work out what game Littlefinger is playing. And Petyr cheerfully rolling the dice.  But he must have been seething internally that someone's hauling him into this mess.  Relief that Lysa hasn't dropped him in it, giving way to a split second decision about owning up to prior ownership.  I wonder if there was a moment where he contemplated putting that knife through Varys' eye.  He's obviously very proficient with short blades.  Beaten with a long sword, yes, but tangling at close quarters might be a very different and much more dangerous prospect.

I often wonder if it the knife ever belonged to Petyr. We only have his word on the topic. Also I wonder more why Varys didn't call him on his bluff? That perhaps is a discussion for another time.

Actually I think Baelish's actual motivation was to remove Stannis, which is why he leaked the story to him.  Everything just spiraled out of control from there. Stannis does the smart thing and go to the one person that Robert might believe Jon Arryn. They start investigating the incest together.

By now the rest of the small council is aware of the incest and all are seeking to profit from it. Renly is trying to bring Margaery to court, in due time he could expose the incest eliminate the Lannisters and make his Tyrells friends the next leading house in Westeros.

Lannister spies tipped off Cersei about Jon and Stannis's investigation. She then talks Robert into having Tywin foster Sweetrobin. With the Arryn heir at the mercy of the Lannisters Jon would be powerless to expose the incest. Jon attempts to counter this by attempting to have Sweetrobin fostered with Stannis his ally in the incest problem.

Baelish meanwhile has a huge problem, if Jon and Stannis expose the incest without taking the proper measures Robert is a dead man and Stannis will be king. What do I mean? His wife is a Lannister, his squires are Lannisters, his executioner is a Lannister, Jaime "the Kingslayer" is the father of the bastards and Pycelle is Lannister toadie. Unless things are done quickly and quietly than someone will eliminate Robert. Varys has a similar problem: Stannis is pro magic and a capable commander. The last person that Varys wants in charge of Westeros when its time from Aegon to make his move.

With the fight over the fostering of Sweetrobin Baelish is capable of talking Lysa into killing Jon Arryn with the Tears of Lys. Interesting to note that Maester Colemon was purging him, then Pycelle steps in and stops the purging and allows Jon Arryn to die. With Pycelle letting him die and it was known that Jon was investigating the incest. This frames the Lannister's perfectly.

This causes Stannis to flee King's Landing and creates a possibility of a new Hand of the King. I think Baelish wanted the position for himself. Also he has Lysa and the Vale waiting in the wings. Baelish knows that Robert doesn't like this brothers and that leaves him as  likely choice. Afterall he is Jon Arryn's protege. Robert hasn't even seen Eddard since the Greyjoy Rebellion. Then Robert announces he is going North...

While Robert and most of the court is taking its sweet time heading North Baelish gets back in touch with Lysa and gets her to send the letter to Cat blaming the Lannisters. Which all the players in King's Landing more or less believe anyway. Stannis has been ostracized and has no support and all the Lannisters need to do is arrange for Robert to die and name Joffrey as King. Ned's hatred of the Lannister is a well known fact and he will be useful for keeping the Lannisters in check.

Also I don't think Baelish had anything to do with the dagger incident in Winterfell. He needed to blame a Lannister who was part of the King's party but not in King's Landing. Tyrion was the ideal choice due to him not being there to defend himself and the fact that Cersei hates him.

On 5/4/2017 at 7:59 AM, Seams said:

I'm starting to think about the need for a systematic analysis of hilts and pommels. (Maybe also sheaths.) I suspect that dagger with the dragonbone hilt is going to lead us to a Targaryen or someone of Valyrian origin. I realize that witness claims (possibly including some false claims) have put that dagger in the possession of non-Targs, and that dragon bone has been seen in other contexts in the books. I may be wrong, but I think GRRM is using hilts to give us clear connections to the person wielding the weapon.

Having said that, it might also be worth considering possible Targaryen background of the three characters said to have owned the knife at different points: King Robert, Littlefinger and Tyrion. Littlefinger said he lost the knife in a jousting bet to Tyrion; Tyrion says that he never bets against Jaime, so Littlefinger's story is therefore false. The dagger may also have been part of a large collection of weapons owned by Robert.

We know that Robert has Targaryen blood - this is a part of his claim to the Iron Throne, aside from his victory at the Ruby Ford.

I don't have a lot of evidence, but I suspect that Littlefinger might be a descendant of the Velaryon-Targ household.

And there has been some speculation in this forum about King Aerys impregnating Johanna Lannister, making him the biological father of Tyrion.

At the wedding feast where Joffrey demands that Tyrion give him a new wedding gift, and Tyrion suggests a daggger with a dragonbone handle, Joffrey rejects that and specifies that the dagger should match his new sword:

"You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

(ASoS, Sansa IV)

Skip this if you're not interested in GRRM's subtle use of words as clues, but Tyrion's utterance about the dragonbone hilt is followed immediately by Joffrey saying, "You" back to his uncle. I think this is a sign that Joffrey is identifying (for the reader) Tyrion as a Targaryen - the dragonbone hilt is not a match for Joff but it is for Uncle Imp. There are actually a lot of meaningful things in Joffrey's utterances and actions that carry hidden meanings, and I think this might be one of them.

So the dagger could have belonged to any or all of those three, in my current way of thinking, although I'm not sure who hired the catspaw. I know most people accept Tyrion and Jaime's hunch that it was Joff, but I don't see it. Part of the logic is that Joff thought he might impress Robert, but Joff was already punished and really humiliated by Robert for shooting a cat. I don't think he would try killing on a larger scale as a way to curry favor with his putative father.

Here are some other important questions to ask about the dagger incident: Who would want to burn the Stark library? Was that as much of a goal as the apparent attempt on Bran's life? Also, was the goal really to kill Bran? We know that Varys suffered a terrible knife attack when he was a boy. Could the same kind of castration attack have been planned for Bran? If so, was the special knife required for that apparent ritual mutilation? If you're right about Varys manipulating the situation to create a surprise confrontation of Littlefinger, maybe Varys was mad about the attempt to maim another kid the way he had been scarred for life.

Interesting ideas. Also only Baelish and Aurane have "grey-green" eyes. Considering the melting pot that is Braavos Baelish have all sorts of interesting possibilities in his lineage.

[SeaWitch]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I often wonder if it the knife ever belonged to Petyr. We only have his word on the topic. Also I wonder more why Varys didn't call him on his bluff? That perhaps is a discussion for another time.

Actually I think Baelish's actual motivation was to remove Stannis, which is why he leaked the story to him.  Everything just spiraled out of control from there. Stannis does the smart thing and go to the one person that Robert might believe Jon Arryn. They start investigating the incest together.

By now the rest of the small council is aware of the incest and all are seeking to profit from it. Renly is trying to bring Margaery to court, in due time he could expose the incest eliminate the Lannisters and make his Tyrells friends the next leading house in Westeros.

Lannister spies tipped off Cersei about Jon and Stannis's investigation. She then talks Robert into having Tywin foster Sweetrobin. With the Arryn heir at the mercy of the Lannisters Jon would be powerless to expose the incest. Jon attempts to counter this by attempting to have Sweetrobin fostered with Stannis his ally in the incest problem.

Baelish meanwhile has a huge problem, if Jon and Stannis expose the incest without taking the proper measures Robert is a dead man and Stannis will be king. What do I mean? His wife is a Lannister, his squires are Lannisters, his executioner is a Lannister, Jaime "the Kingslayer" is the father of the bastards and Pycelle is Lannister toadie. Unless things are done quickly and quietly than someone will eliminate Robert. Varys has a similar problem: Stannis is pro magic and a capable commander. The last person that Varys wants in charge of Westeros when its time from Aegon to make his move.

With the fight over the fostering of Sweetrobin Baelish is capable of talking Lysa into killing Jon Arryn with the Tears of Lys. Interesting to note that Maester Colemon was purging him, then Pycelle steps in and stops the purging and allows Jon Arryn to die. With Pycelle letting him die and it was known that Jon was investigating the incest. This frames the Lannister's perfectly.

This causes Stannis to flee King's Landing and creates a possibility of a new Hand of the King. I think Baelish wanted the position for himself. Also he has Lysa and the Vale waiting in the wings. Baelish knows that Robert doesn't like this brothers and that leaves him as  likely choice. Afterall he is Jon Arryn's protege. Robert hasn't even seen Eddard since the Greyjoy Rebellion. Then Robert announces he is going North...

While Robert and most of the court is taking its sweet time heading North Baelish gets back in touch with Lysa and gets her to send the letter to Cat blaming the Lannisters. Which all the players in King's Landing more or less believe anyway. Stannis has been ostracized and has no support and all the Lannisters need to do is arrange for Robert to die and name Joffrey as King. Ned's hatred of the Lannister is a well known fact and he will be useful for keeping the Lannisters in check.

Also I don't think Baelish had anything to do with the dagger incident in Winterfell. He needed to blame a Lannister who was part of the King's party but not in King's Landing. Tyrion was the ideal choice due to him not being there to defend himself and the fact that Cersei hates him.

Interesting ideas. Also only Baelish and Aurane have "grey-green" eyes. Considering the melting pot that is Braavos Baelish have all sorts of interesting possibilities in his lineage.

This ties together with how I'm sorting the timeline in my head. (Still only two books in) The Starks weren't an issue until Ned was in KL, and blundering through ongoing plots.  

If that knife wasn't Petyr's, I want to see the guy in fighting action some day.  Picking up a blade, weighing it and then throwing it to stick is not easy without practise and familiarity.  He might not be so good with a broadsword, but water-dancing, maybe, or simply bloody dangerous with knives.  But owning up to ownership in those circumstances was still odd.

That's what I'm interested in working out, rather than a digression on the blade.  How fast his mind worked when this object dropped in front of him in those particular circumstances.  The man is a gambler, I suspect his face doesn't show anything he doesn't want it to. (What is the Westerosi equivalent of poker?). If it was his knife, he had to be aware that it could be proven to be so.  Otherwise, why admit to it?

I don't see him as Jokeresque or Moriarty, but a man who adapts to circumstance, consummate opportunist. (The agent of the Iron Bank is a wild theory, but someone taught him to be expert with finances.) He's establishing a merit-based administration, and quite efficiently.  He would probably have made a good Hand, really.  Until the coup.

[Lord Wraith]

20 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

This ties together with how I'm sorting the timeline in my head. (Still only two books in) The Starks weren't an issue until Ned was in KL, and blundering through ongoing plots.  

If that knife wasn't Petyr's, I want to see the guy in fighting action some day.  Picking up a blade, weighing it and then throwing it to stick is not easy without practise and familiarity.  He might not be so good with a broadsword, but water-dancing, maybe, or simply bloody dangerous with knives.  But owning up to ownership in those circumstances was still odd.

That's what I'm interested in working out, rather than a digression on the blade.  How fast his mind worked when this object dropped in front of him in those particular circumstances.  The man is a gambler, I suspect his face doesn't show anything he doesn't want it to. (What is the Westerosi equivalent of poker?). If it was his knife, he had to be aware that it could be proven to be so.  Otherwise, why admit to it?

I don't see him as Jokeresque or Moriarty, but a man who adapts to circumstance, consummate opportunist. (The agent of the Iron Bank is a wild theory, but someone taught him to be expert with finances.) He's establishing a merit-based administration, and quite efficiently.  He would probably have made a good Hand, really.  Until the coup.

Between the knife throwing and his rather disturbing knowledge of poisons I often wonder what Baelish was doing between his failed duel and his taking the post at Gulltown. Also I agree his knowledge of finances exceed basically everyone else's. These both point respectively to Braavos where the Baelish family is from.

[Prof. Cecily]

I agree about the knife dexterity shown by him. I myself associate good knife work with sailors and Lord Baelish seems to have shipping /trading connections.

Those lost years might have been spent in that area. The idea of some sort of association with the Iron Bank is tempting. Yet the honourable Tycho Nestoris doesn't try to contact Baelish, as far as I know.

[SeaWitch]

Yes, there's something like five years between Petyr being shipped back home, and his appointment in Gulltown.  He's been in KL three years plus. (I personally think he kept at arms' length from Lysa, and sweetRobin is genuinely an Arryn.). I don't see him staying in the broch for any longer than it took him to heal up and maybe row with his father about screwing up.  He said something to Cersei about knowing how it felt to lose parents young, so I suspect his mother might have been dead by then.  (There was a faith in the elder Baelish that his son would be fostered, but I can't help wondering if Hoster Tully was always just intending to send him home, without preferment or further attention.  Or if he was trained specifically to be a clerk/man of business for  Edmure.)  

Having seen young AG in things like 'Lorna Doone', I have no trouble picturing young Petyr as a proto-bravo in the harbour taverns, possibly in company with young lordlings from other minor houses.  The story about the Braavosi merchant prince's daughter might have some truth in it.  Though I think part of his involvement in brothels, whilst not partaking, is due to a certain screwed up approach to sexuality, his first experiences being impaired and semi-consensual.  

The IB representatives were always sent to talk to Petyr in KL.  The nobility are still all about passage of arms and birthright.  They dismiss the whole business of administration.  Which is why he owned the bureaucracy at court.  If he was embezzling, how much of that is in the IB? That's partly why I'd like to think he'll fake his death/escape.  I can easily see him politicking for the next SeaLord.

(...this is what happens when I procrastinate on editing my own book. Other people's characters wander in and set up shop.)

[Prof. Cecily]

8 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

Though I think part of his involvement in brothels, whilst not partaking, is due to a certain screwed up approach to sexuality, his first experiences being impaired and semi-consensual.

I agree with you there. 

8 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

The IB representatives were always sent to talk to Petyr in KL.  The nobility are still all about passage of arms and birthright.  They dismiss the whole business of administration.  Which is why he owned the bureaucracy at court.  If he was embezzling, how much of that is in the IB? That's partly why I'd like to think he'll fake his death/escape.  I can easily see him politicking for the next SeaLord.

True and obviously whilst he was Master of Coin, dealings with the IB would have gone through Baelish. This why the charges of embezzlement surprise me. Surely the IB would have unannounced audits on the books of such a debtor as the IT. 3 million gold dragons?

I'm thinking from ADOD onward, of course, when the honourable travels to the Wall to speak with King Stannis. And the Lord Commander.

I, too, see the man faking his own death/escape. And politicking for the next Sea Lord.

And playing a vicious game of cyvass.

 

8 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

(...this is what happens when I procrastinate on editing my own book. Other people's characters wander in and set up shop.)

You're at the editing stage? Fabulous. 

 

8 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

I have no trouble picturing young Petyr as a proto-bravo in the harbour taverns, possibly in company with young lordlings from other minor houses.

Tempting. Very tempting, though I have the feeling he'd have been more comfortable with people of the  merchant class.Young lordlings are notoriously  bad investments.

Rather than a proto-bravo, perhaps someone with the knack for advising merchants and would-be merchants on which sea-captains to entrust their ventures. A type of young Sherlock Holmes in Braavos.

Still, we speak of a very young Baelish. At the time of the damn dagger, he is not yet 30.

[SeaWitch]

11 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I agree with you there. 

True and obviously whilst he was Master of Coin, dealings with the IB would have gone through Baelish. This why the charges of embezzlement surprise me. Surely the IB would have unannounced audits on the books of such a debtor as the IT. 3 million gold dragons?

- bewildered, too. Either he was planning on getting caught, passing the buck or an underling got cocky. But it's the Throne's debt, not his, personally.

I'm thinking from ADOD onward, of course, when the honourable travels to the Wall to speak with King Stannis. And the Lord Commander.

- am only on book 2

I, too, see the man faking his own death/escape. And politicking for the next Sea Lord.

And playing a vicious game of cyvass.

- also writing savage and popular satirical plays, political treatise and financial strategy

You're at the editing stage? Fabulous. 

- *sobs faintly*

Tempting. Very tempting, though I have the feeling he'd have been more comfortable with people of the  merchant class.Young lordlings are notoriously  bad investments.

- but inclined to drink heavily, and gamble unwisely

Rather than a proto-bravo, perhaps someone with the knack for advising merchants and would-be merchants on which sea-captains to entrust their ventures. A type of young Sherlock Holmes in Braavos.

- I was thinking still in Gulltown, but the mental picture, ohgod. 

Still, we speak of a very young Baelish. At the time of the damn dagger, he is not yet 30.

-  It's terrifying. Medieval history made so much more sense when someone said 'The world run by teenagers. With weapons. And alcohol.'

 

[Prof. Cecily]

3 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

- am only on book 2

Enjoy. 

I'm on my third reading. You have no idea what delights are ahead of you, once you get past the stage of devouring the text.

Of course, this forum is, in my case, fundamental  to appreciating the saga.

 

4 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

- also writing savage and popular satirical plays, political treatise and financial strategy

Of course. Of course. Of course.

 

4 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

- but inclined to drink heavily, and gamble unwisely

Haha. Also, sticking with the pointy end.

 

4 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

- I was thinking still in Gulltown, but the mental picture, ohgod. 

I'd have thought that after the life in a Great House, the minor nobility of Gulltown would have been insupportable to a young Baelish. Everyone wanting to see the scar, etc.

4 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

-  It's terrifying. Medieval history made so much more sense when someone said 'The world run by teenagers. With weapons. And alcohol.'

So true.

And the Church. I find GRRM's take on religion to be deeply satisfying.

16 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

- *sobs faintly*

You probably have a great deal of sympathy for GRRM.

[SeaWitch]

2 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Haha. Also, sticking with the pointy end.

 

I'd have thought that after the life in a Great House, the minor nobility of Gulltown would have been insupportable to a young Baelish. Everyone wanting to see the scar, etc.

So true.

And the Church. I find GRRM's take on religion to be deeply satisfying.

You probably have a great deal of sympathy for GRRM.

This is giving greater credence to 'Petyr Baelish: Agent of Braavos' all the time.

If he did have that sort if life, there must be something compelling to haul him back. Otherwise, why not stay in Braavos? It seems like it would offer more. Unless the Baelish name isn't welcome? Might be reason his ancestor skipped town.

there is nothing like studying medieval history to make you want to punch a Pope.

I'd have more sympathy for GRRM if people didn't keep asking if my book was like his stuff. (No, it has less incest and direwolves.) However, I'll take some of his sales figures.

[Prof. Cecily]

42 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

This is giving greater credence to 'Petyr Baelish: Agent of Braavos' all the time.

GRRM has said that he has enough adventures of Aryan in Braavos to fill a book. I wonder...

43 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

If he did have that sort if life, there must be something compelling to haul him back. Otherwise, why not stay in Braavos? It seems like it would offer more. Unless the Baelish name isn't welcome? Might be reason his ancestor skipped town.

Possible. Or a situation reminiscent of Joseph and Potiphar's wife? 

43 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

there is nothing like studying medieval history to make you want to punch a Pope.

So, so true.

43 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

I'd have more sympathy for GRRM if people didn't keep asking if my book was like his stuff. (No, it has less incest and direwolves.) However, I'll take some of his sales figures.

What a silly thing to ask an author.

Well, yes, the sales figures.