LittleScorpion

Cersei's plans for Season 8

25 posts in this topic

First post, hiiii!!!!

What's the Queen going to do in season 8? She and Dany pretty much went punch for punch in the sadly short-lived Clash of the Queens, but now that Dany and her Pet Northerner (lol) are seemingly out of the picture, to go die up North fighting zombies, Cersei's got some real sneaky shit up her sleeve. Euron Greyjoy, who appears to be in service to her, has traveled to Essos, to retrieve her a giant army of sellswords (men, horses, and elephants) provided to her by her new allies at the Iron Bank. She still has some Lannister soldiers left, she has the Iron Fleet controlling the seas, and now she has a huge army of the most reliable mercenaries in the world. What will she do?

Before Jaime stormed out on her, she told him just that: let the Targaryens, the Starks, and the White Walkers kill each other, and while they do that, Cersei's going to roll out and take back as much of Westeros as she can. She's gonna take advantage of the situation like always and attack the seemingly undefended Southern Kingdoms to take back what's she thinks is her. So what will that entail? 

She will surely take back Casterly Rock, probably Highgarden, maybe even Dragonstone now that Daenerys' forces have gone North. She could reclaim Dorne. Maybe she'll add insult to injury of her late husband and capture the Stormlands (we still need to see Storm's End). 

So yeahhhh, i kinda rambled there, sorry about that :P But do you guys all agree? What do you think she's gonna do?

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Casterly Rock was presumably reoccupied the day the Unsullied left, and the Westerlands are still loyal. Highgarden is presumably still held by whatever castellan Tarly left behind, and if Cersei just confirms his widow or daughter as Lord Paramount, the Reach is still hers, as long as she doesn't expect them to raise troops or taxes for her.

Really, there's very little to retake, and even less reason to do so. If people aren't in open rebellion, and neither you nor your enemy are going to get significant money or troops out of them, why would you attack them? Even Dorne—if Sarella Sand or whoever wants to stay out of the war, let her. Just appoint her your Lord Paramount, and you can summon her to pay fealty after you've beaten Dany or the Dead. It would be smart to actually appoint someone as Lord Paramount in the Stormlands and the Riverlands, but whoever you pick ought to be able to occupy the empty Storm's End and take the Twins peacefully off Kitty Frey without your help.

So, the only places worth attacking are Dragonstone (for the symbolic win), the Vale, and the North.

The Vale is normally not an easy target, but right now all of the lords and most of their armies are up in Winterfell, the Eyrie is abandoned for the winter, and Lord Paramount Sweetrobin isn't even at the Gates of the Moon. So really, just land at Gulltown, take Runestone, exonerate Robin of any crimes committed in his name by Littlefinger, replace him as Lord Paramount and send him to KL to be fostered by whatever unnamed characters are still there. Maybe leave a small detachment to besiege the Gates of the Moon, while leaving the Bloody Gate unguarded so they can flee rather than resist, but it's not that important until spring comes.

The North is the hard bit. The whole point of the plan is to not have to fight Jon and Dany until they've already defeated the Dead, or vice-versa. But, on the other hand, you do need a beachhead so you can attack without needing to fight through Moat Cailin. That probably means capturing White Harbor and laying siege to New Castle.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

Casterly Rock was presumably reoccupied the day the Unsullied left, and the Westerlands are still loyal. Highgarden is presumably still held by whatever castellan Tarly left behind, and if Cersei just confirms his widow or daughter as Lord Paramount, the Reach is still hers, as long as she doesn't expect them to raise troops or taxes for her.

Really, there's very little to retake, and even less reason to do so. If people aren't in open rebellion, and neither you nor your enemy are going to get significant money or troops out of them, why would you attack them? Even Dorne—if Sarella Sand or whoever wants to stay out of the war, let her. Just appoint her your Lord Paramount, and you can summon her to pay fealty after you've beaten Dany or the Dead. It would be smart to actually appoint someone as Lord Paramount in the Stormlands and the Riverlands, but whoever you pick ought to be able to occupy the empty Storm's End and take the Twins peacefully off Kitty Frey without your help.

So, the only places worth attacking are Dragonstone (for the symbolic win), the Vale, and the North.

The Vale is normally not an easy target, but right now all of the lords and most of their armies are up in Winterfell, the Eyrie is abandoned for the winter, and Lord Paramount Sweetrobin isn't even at the Gates of the Moon. So really, just land at Gulltown, take Runestone, exonerate Robin of any crimes committed in his name by Littlefinger, replace him as Lord Paramount and send him to KL to be fostered by whatever unnamed characters are still there. Maybe leave a small detachment to besiege the Gates of the Moon, while leaving the Bloody Gate unguarded so they can flee rather than resist, but it's not that important until spring comes.

The North is the hard bit. The whole point of the plan is to not have to fight Jon and Dany until they've already defeated the Dead, or vice-versa. But, on the other hand, you do need a beachhead so you can attack without needing to fight through Moat Cailin. That probably means capturing White Harbor and laying siege to New Castle.

There are two 

 

9 hours ago, LittleScorpion said:

First post, hiiii!!!!

What's the Queen going to do in season 8? She and Dany pretty much went punch for punch in the sadly short-lived Clash of the Queens, but now that Dany and her Pet Northerner (lol) are seemingly out of the picture, to go die up North fighting zombies, Cersei's got some real sneaky shit up her sleeve. Euron Greyjoy, who appears to be in service to her, has traveled to Essos, to retrieve her a giant army of sellswords (men, horses, and elephants) provided to her by her new allies at the Iron Bank. She still has some Lannister soldiers left, she has the Iron Fleet controlling the seas, and now she has a huge army of the most reliable mercenaries in the world. What will she do?

Before Jaime stormed out on her, she told him just that: let the Targaryens, the Starks, and the White Walkers kill each other, and while they do that, Cersei's going to roll out and take back as much of Westeros as she can. She's gonna take advantage of the situation like always and attack the seemingly undefended Southern Kingdoms to take back what's she thinks is her. So what will that entail? 

She will surely take back Casterly Rock, probably Highgarden, maybe even Dragonstone now that Daenerys' forces have gone North. She could reclaim Dorne. Maybe she'll add insult to injury of her late husband and capture the Stormlands (we still need to see Storm's End). 

So yeahhhh, i kinda rambled there, sorry about that :P But do you guys all agree? What do you think she's gonna do?

I think there are two questions.

what does she want to do? And what is going to happen?

i personally think that winter falling on king's landing right after she reveals her cynical plan to jaime is foreshadowing that the white walkers and some portion of the AOtD is going to King's Landing and is going to rain on her parade. 

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4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I think there are two questions.

what does she want to do? And what is going to happen?

i personally think that winter falling on king's landing right after she reveals her cynical plan to jaime is foreshadowing that the white walkers and some portion of the AOtD is going to King's Landing and is going to rain on her parade. 

She wants all of Westeros under her thumb, and I think she's going to try to accomplish just that. 

I don't think the dead will make it to KL, because that would mean that pretty much every person in the North is dead by then, and I don't think the writers are that morbid and would have Jon and Dany fail that hard.

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8 minutes ago, LittleScorpion said:

She wants all of Westeros under her thumb, and I think she's going to try to accomplish just that. 

I don't think the dead will make it to KL, because that would mean that pretty much every person in the North is dead by then, and I don't think the writers are that morbid and would have Jon and Dany fail that hard.

I thought that at first but there are lots of ways you could accomplish this without killing off the people in the north.

the most straight forward way is to split up the AOTD. One part goes and attacks winterfell as a diversion while the other heads down to King's Landing where the real treasure is... millions of dead people who were not burned and can be raised from the dead. 

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6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I thought that at first but there are lots of ways you could accomplish this without killing off the people in the north.

the most straight forward way is to split up the AOTD. One part goes and attacks winterfell as a diversion while the other heads down to King's Landing where the real treasure is... millions of dead people who were not burned and can be raised from the dead. 

Yeah but as the Army of the Dead marches south to KL, they're not gonna ignore all the people on the way. That's millions of people that are between Winterfell and King's Landing, and if the NK makes it that far, they're all gonna die. 

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2 hours ago, LittleScorpion said:

Yeah but as the Army of the Dead marches south to KL, they're not gonna ignore all the people on the way. That's millions of people that are between Winterfell and King's Landing, and if the NK makes it that far, they're all gonna die. 

That is a good point. I suppose the question is how do they get the NK to KL without making him too powerful on the way.

Maybe to your point this a problem that can't be solved. Or maybe they find someway around it such as all the white walkers save the NK are wiped out so Drogon and Rhaegal can just go to town on the millions of zombies without having to fear ice spears or he gets his million person army but they take him out which resolves the issue. 

Ultimatley though I think there is a descent chance of it happening although not 100% since the forwshadowing (Dany's vision in HOTU, Bran's vision in 4x02 and it snowing in 7x07) and Alan Taylor saying all the storylines would converge. 

But we will see. 

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

That is a good point. I suppose the question is how do they get the NK to KL without making him too powerful on the way.

This is the big problem.

The smart thing for the NK to do is bypass Winterfell and the Northern army and just cross into the Riverlands and start killing and wighting the millions of unprotected people there. After that, he can take the rest of the south easily, adding to his forces as he goes, taking the hardest targets like KL and the Vale and Dorne only after he's got an army of 20 million, and then come back and deal with Winterfell last of all.

Or, alternatively, push as far south as fast as possible. Once he brings a harsh winter all the way down to the end of the Reach, all of those targets become a lot easier.

It's not hard to imagine some reason that he has to fight in Winterfell instead. But, short of that, it's very hard to imagine any reason he'd have to fight in King's Landing.

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21 minutes ago, falcotron said:

This is the big problem.

The smart thing for the NK to do is bypass Winterfell and the Northern army and just cross into the Riverlands and start killing and wighting the millions of unprotected people there. After that, he can take the rest of the south easily, adding to his forces as he goes, taking the hardest targets like KL and the Vale and Dorne only after he's got an army of 20 million, and then come back and deal with Winterfell last of all.

Or, alternatively, push as far south as fast as possible. Once he brings a harsh winter all the way down to the end of the Reach, all of those targets become a lot easier.

It's not hard to imagine some reason that he has to fight in Winterfell instead. But, short of that, it's very hard to imagine any reason he'd have to fight in King's Landing.

We should never underestimate because the plot demands it as a reason

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I'm not exactly sure what Cersei can do short of planning to stash wildfire everywhere in King's Landing so that whichever comes marching for her first (the AotD or Team Daenaegon/Jonerys) is blown up with all the city folk, marrying and sleeping with Euron so we all know Jaime really is separated from her, and then get killed by Jaime (coming back to try to warn her to either leave or surrender, then finding out her plans to committ a mass murder by wildfire to defend the red keep as she insults his intelligence).

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33 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I'm not exactly sure what Cersei can do short of planning to stash wildfire everywhere in King's Landing so that whichever comes marching for her first (the AotD or Team Daenaegon/Jonerys) is blown up with all the city folk, marrying and sleeping with Euron so we all know Jaime really is separated from her, and then get killed by Jaime (coming back to try to warn her to either leave or surrender, then finding out her plans to committ a mass murder by wildfire to defend the red keep as she insults his intelligence).

I still have my money on Arya - maybe after taking Jaime's face when he dies heroically up north - killing Cersei with Tyrion's help. 

This quote from Tyrion in ACOK seems like too much foreshadowing

"I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister.

Edited by jcmontea

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1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

I still have my money on Arya - maybe after taking Jaime's face when he dies heroically up north - killing Cersei with Tyrion's help. 

This quote from Tyrion in ACOK seems like too much foreshadowing

"I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister.

Ah I forgot that line.  I think Arya is more likely to kill Cersei in the show than in the books, but still betting on Jaime.  I agree with you that Jaime will die a heroic death, so while D&D won't care about the logistics of Arya entering a battlefield and slicing a dead hero's face off they probably will care about the audience's reaction to seeing NCW's face again after he gets an emotional goodbye.  If Arya goes the FM route to kill Cersei then I think she uses Littlefinger's or Qyburn's face.  Especially because Valonqar was not on the show.

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2 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Ah I forgot that line.  I think Arya is more likely to kill Cersei in the show than in the books, but still betting on Jaime.  I agree with you that Jaime will die a heroic death, so while D&D won't care about the logistics of Arya entering a battlefield and slicing a dead hero's face off they probably will care about the audience's reaction to seeing NCW's face again after he gets an emotional goodbye.  If Arya goes the FM route to kill Cersei then I think she uses Littlefinger's or Qyburn's face.  Especially because Valonqar was not on the show.

Great points. Could see those working too and your right Valonqar is not on show.

although technically Arya could be the Valonqar since isn't it Valyrian and gender neutral like the PWWP? She is a little sister

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Just now, jcmontea said:

Great points. Could see those working too and your right Valonqar is not on show.

although technically Arya could be the Valonqar since isn't it Valyrian and gender neutral like the PWWP? She is a little sister

If you're right about valonqar being gender neutral for little sister, then Arya is both Sansa's little sister, and will possibly Daenerys' little sister in law (or little good sister whatever term they use) meaning Arya would be the little sister of the YMBQ and not Cersei herself!  Totally could see this, need to re read the passage to see if it is clear that valonqar is referring to Cersei as the possessor and not the YMBQ.

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

This is the big problem.

The smart thing for the NK to do is bypass Winterfell and the Northern army and just cross into the Riverlands and start killing and wighting the millions of unprotected people there. After that, he can take the rest of the south easily, adding to his forces as he goes, taking the hardest targets like KL and the Vale and Dorne only after he's got an army of 20 million, and then come back and deal with Winterfell last of all.

Or, alternatively, push as far south as fast as possible. Once he brings a harsh winter all the way down to the end of the Reach, all of those targets become a lot easier.

It's not hard to imagine some reason that he has to fight in Winterfell instead. But, short of that, it's very hard to imagine any reason he'd have to fight in King's Landing.

 

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

We should never underestimate because the plot demands it as a reason

Ultimately, KL is the prime target.  A million of people packed into one city and very little defense against that kind of army. The NK's army presumably doesn't need to rest or eat so they can just plod along 24/7 until they get there, consuming whomever they encounter along the way.

Winterfell by contrast has relatively few people and is already preparing for the invasion.  Of course, there's no reason to believe the NK knows any of this. I guess he's got "the sight" (?)

You could also argue that the invasion of KL by the army of the dead was foreshadowed by Jon in S7E7.

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9 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

If you're right about valonqar being gender neutral for little sister, then Arya is both Sansa's little sister, and will possibly Daenerys' little sister in law (or little good sister whatever term they use) meaning Arya would be the little sister of the YMBQ and not Cersei herself!  Totally could see this, need to re read the passage to see if it is clear that valonqar is referring to Cersei as the possessor and not the YMBQ.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valonqar/Theories

seems its a theory that it could be gender neutral and not necessarily comfirmed im universe. 

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4 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 

Ultimately, KL is the prime target.  A million of people packed into one city and very little defense against that kind of army. The NK's army presumably doesn't need to rest or eat so they can just plod along 24/7 until they get there, consuming whomever they encounter along the way.

Winterfell by contrast has relatively few people and is already preparing for the invasion.  Of course, there's no reason to believe the NK knows any of this. I guess he's got "the sight" (?)

You could also argue that the invasion of KL by the army of the dead was foreshadowed by Jon in S7E7.

I agree. There is a reason why they decided to mention KL has a million people. 

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On 9/19/2017 at 10:15 PM, LittleScorpion said:

Before Jaime stormed out on her, she told him just that: let the Targaryens, the Starks, and the White Walkers kill each other, and while they do that, Cersei's going to roll out and take back as much of Westeros as she can. She's gonna take advantage of the situation like always and attack the seemingly undefended Southern Kingdoms to take back what's she thinks is her. So what will that entail? 

Cersei clearly doesn't get the concept of the NK and his army.  They don't destroy their enemies, they consume them. That army gets stronger by fighting battles.  If they win, they get stronger. If they loose, more often than not, they get stronger.

I don't know what her plans are exactly, but I'm pretty sure her fate involves emerging as the digested remains of a blonde corpse from a dragons rectum.

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

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54 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

If you're right about valonqar being gender neutral for little sister

In the show, PtwP is gender-neutral because some words in Valyrian are gender-neutral, including their word for prince, and therefore "valonqar" could be as well.

But in the books, PtwP is gender-neutral because the original prophecy uses the Valyrian word for "dragon" metaphorically to mean prince, and dragons can change sex. So "valonqar" being gender neutral doesn't make much sense there.

So, it would presumably be a pretty big change from the books to make Arya the valonqar—and, because neither the valonqar part of the prophecy nor the word "valonqar" have appeared anywhere in the show, it would be a very strange one. If they want Arya to kill Cersei, Arya will kill Cersei, but it won't be because she's the valonqar.

54 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Arya is both Sansa's little sister, and will possibly Daenerys' little sister in law

But something like 80% of the people in Westeros are someone's little sister or little brother, so it's not a particularly interesting prophecy if that's the case. Maggy might as well have said "the random person".

54 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

(or little good sister whatever term they use)

The show has used "goodsister" and related words inconsistently. It could be sister-in-law, but it could also be the daughter of your foster father, or of what seems to be the Westerosi equivalent of a godfather. Anyway, it works.

54 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Totally could see this, need to re read the passage to see if it is clear that valonqar is referring to Cersei as the possessor and not the YMBQ.

It definitely refers to Cersei:

Quote

“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

This comes way after the YMBQ part, and can't possibly refer to her.

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1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Ultimately, KL is the prime target.  A million of people packed into one city and very little defense against that kind of army.

Why is that a prime target? By ignoring all of the castles and cities, they could probably pick of something like 20 million people (plus who knows how many recent corpses that have been buried instead of burned) on the way down to the south end of the Reach. After which they've brought their deadly winter to the whole continent, so it's easier to mop up the fortified positions they bypassed earlier. And if the enemy wants to fight you, they'll have to come meet you on the icy open fields, instead of from behind a wall.

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