Dany's Heir

[Gerold Hightower]

The Tyrells were Targaryen loyalists back in the day but they served Robert and the Lannisters since. Unlike Doran Martell, they haven't secretly plotted to bring the Targs back, either.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1296030' date='Apr 1 2008, 10.29']Stannis has Edric though and still wants the throne for himself so he'll just ignore Dany's legitmisation. Daenerys might be the rightful heir to the throne, but Stannis isn't going to bend the knee to a fifteen year old girl after all the trouble he's gone though. Dany can't legitimise any of Robert's bastards for her own means until she's in Westeros, and she'll need to have the majority of power before anyone will take notice of her legitmising a boy several hundred miles to the north.[/quote]
didn't Edric go to the Free Cities, thanks to Davos?

again, i think Robert's bastards are irrelevant, because Daenerys would never legitimize a child of the Usurper. she hates him.

as for Stannis, his whole schtick is that he's just. he's not greedy, he just believes -- legitimately -- that his claim is the best, and he wants what he is legally aportioned, which in this case is the kingdom. if Daenerys is alive, i say he would flock to her. as i recall, it was hell for him choosing between Robert and Aerys, Kinslaying and Kingslaying, and if there were a living Targaryen and two dead brothers, the choice would become a lot easier. also, he might be the heir.

as for the Martells, I think their implosion would be fascinating, but unlikely. Dornishmen love Dorne, and I'm of the opinion that Trystane isn't the kind of self-serving douchebag who would forestall the ascendancy of his house or resist Dany's dragons for personal gain.

the Tyrells are going down. they are the equivalent of the Gardener Kings, and like their predecessors, they will be burned on a new field of fire. perhaps. or maybe they will welcome Dany with a husband for Shireen, her heir.

yeah, i said it. what i've gotten from this thread so far is that Dany basically doesn't have an heir, except for Stannis. would she hear his story? would she understand his struggle? would he turn his back on the throne temporarily? would he be able to extricate himself from Melisandre's stranglehold? can there be an alliance between the dragon queen and the prophet king?

and when sickly Shireen dies without issue, what then? maybe Harry the Heir has a drop of dragon blood in him.

or even better. maybe some kinky Martells will rig up something crazy, and Dany will get preggers. by the way, whats the wording on Dany's presumed barrenness? is it at all flexible?

[Jaak]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1298494' date='Apr 3 2008, 04.37']didn't Edric go to the Free Cities, thanks to Davos?

again, i think Robert's bastards are irrelevant, because Daenerys would never legitimize a child of the Usurper. she hates him.

as for Stannis, his whole schtick is that he's just. he's not greedy, he just believes -- legitimately -- that his claim is the best, and he wants what he is legally aportioned, which in this case is the kingdom. if Daenerys is alive, i say he would flock to her. as i recall, it was hell for him choosing between Robert and Aerys, Kinslaying and Kingslaying, and if there were a living Targaryen and two dead brothers, the choice would become a lot easier.[/quote]

Stannis held Storm´s End, stubbornly. But what did he fight for?

If he claims that it was hard for him to choose between Aerys and Robert, why did he oppose the pardon to the Reach lords and armies?

At the end of the day, Stannis chose to rebel against Aerys when adult. Something which Tommen did not do.

[Mezeh]

Tyrells bended a knee to Robert so they do have something to atone before Daenerys. Yet they did it by the very end of the war and they never raised swords against Targaryens. Daenerys is not her father and she will know that she has to prove it as well. So she will have to forgive most of the nobles that betrayed her family since otherwise she will need to punish almost everyone in Westeros. Tyrells will know that and they will know also that the sooner they will bend knee to her the better will be their chances for her full forgiveness.
About Edric. Daenerys never really hated Robert – Viserys did and all that Daenerys knew about Robert and others came from him. But now she knows better then trust point of view of her late brother and she will learn that Robert had a very good reason to rebel against her father. Besides Robert is dead and Edric is guilty of nothing but admiring if his father – a “sin” easy to forgive. She will need to unite Westeros lords under her so she will need a loyal lord of Strom End as well. If she would be able to get one by legitimizing Robert’s bastards then why not?

[Jaak]

[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298778' date='Apr 3 2008, 11.39'].But now she knows better then trust point of view of her late brother and she will learn that Robert had a very good reason to rebel against her father.[/quote]
Yet she can hear Barristan about how Robert insisted on having Daenerys hunted, over the objections of Eddard.
[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298778' date='Apr 3 2008, 11.39']Besides Robert is dead and Edric is guilty of nothing but admiring if his father – a “sin” easy to forgive.[/quote]
The same applies to Tommen and Myrcella.
[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298778' date='Apr 3 2008, 11.39']She will need to unite Westeros lords under her so she will need a loyal lord of Strom End as well. If she would be able to get one by legitimizing Robert’s bastards then why not?[/quote]
One option. Yet she could alternatively get one by refusing to believe Stannis about incest and installing Myrcella and Trystane in Storm´s end. Which would she prefer?

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1298494' date='Apr 3 2008, 02.37']as for Stannis, his whole schtick is that he's just. he's not greedy, he just believes -- legitimately -- that his claim is the best, and he wants what he is legally aportioned, which in this case is the kingdom. if Daenerys is alive, i say he would flock to her. as i recall, it was hell for him choosing between Robert and Aerys, Kinslaying and Kingslaying, and if there were a living Targaryen and two dead brothers, the choice would become a lot easier. also, he might be the heir.[/quote]
I never thought of it like that, but would Stannis be willing to suffer such humiliation after all the bother he's been though?


[quote]or even better. maybe some kinky Martells will rig up something crazy, and Dany will get preggers. by the way, whats the wording on Dany's presumed barrenness? is it at all flexible?[/quote]
One of the prophecies from the House of the Undying has been fufilled, why not another?

[Mezeh]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1298807' date='Apr 3 2008, 05.05']Yet she can hear Barristan about how Robert insisted on having Daenerys hunted, over the objections of Eddard.[/quote]

She is quite aware that Robert promised lordship for her head. Yet she knows his reasons too. Besides she changed opinion about her own father. Edric may be clever enough to do the same about his when he will grow up a bit. Don’t forget he is only 12 but he is pretty clever boy.

[quote name='Jaak' post='1298807' date='Apr 3 2008, 05.05']One option. Yet she could alternatively get one by refusing to believe Stannis about incest and installing Myrcella and Trystane in Storm´s end. Which would she prefer?[/quote]

Myrcella is too much Lannister. Besides if Dany would legitimize Edric his position of the Lord of Storm End would depend upon his recognition of Daenerys as his rightful queen and Myrcella’s will not.

Don’t forget that Myrcella betrothal to Trystane most probably will dissolve.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1298494' date='Apr 2 2008, 21.37']or even better. maybe . . . Dany will get preggers. by the way, whats the wording on Dany's presumed barrenness? is it at all flexible?[/quote]From aGoT (p759):[indent]"When will he {Drogo} be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."[/indent]You can read this at least 3 ways.[list=1]
[*]Dany will never bear a living child because the other conditions can't be fulfilled.
[*]Unlikely as it is, the other conditions will be fulfilled, at which point Dany will have a living child and Drogo will come back.
[*]Dany can have a child at any time because MMD was just saying hurtful stuff, not making an operative prophecy.
[/list]So, yes, there may be some flexibility. I tend to favor #3.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298925' date='Apr 3 2008, 15.02']She is quite aware that Robert promised lordship for her head. Yet she knows his reasons too. Besides she changed opinion about her own father. Edric may be clever enough to do the same about his when he will grow up a bit. Don’t forget he is only 12 but he is pretty clever boy.[/quote]
[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298925' date='Apr 3 2008, 15.02']Myrcella is too much Lannister.[/quote]
Will Daenerys know Jaime´s reasons too?

And why is Myrcella too much Lannister for Daenerys?
[quote name='Mezeh' post='1298925' date='Apr 3 2008, 15.02']Don’t forget that Myrcella betrothal to Trystane most probably will dissolve.[/quote]

When and why?

The moment Martells cancel the engagement, they are looking for another bride to Trystane.

Who? Margaery? Shireen? Third head of dragon with Daenerys?

Myrcella is with Martells. Note that the engagement of Joffrey and Sansa lasted till after they had agreed on the engagement of Margaery.

Martells do not have a compelling reason to dump Myrcella, any more than Lannisters were in a hurry to dump Sansa. Once they win, they can ask Daenerys for a share of spoils including pardon to Myrcella and her claim to Trystane. Or make different arrangements.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1299024' date='Apr 3 2008, 14.14']From aGoT (p759):[indent]"When will he {Drogo} be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."[/indent]You can read this at least 3 ways.[list=1]
[*]Dany will never bear a living child because the other conditions can't be fulfilled.
[*]Unlikely as it is, the other conditions will be fulfilled, at which point Dany will have a living child and Drogo will come back.
[*]Dany can have a child at any time because MMD was just saying hurtful stuff, not making an operative prophecy.
[/list]So, yes, there may be some flexibility. I tend to favor #3.[/quote]
Didn't the people in the House of the Undying say something about that as well? The Magic Mirri used killed Dany's child at that time, and might have been so damaning that she is infertile.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1299224' date='Apr 3 2008, 11.17']Didn't the people in the House of the Undying say something about that as well? The Magic Mirri used killed Dany's child at that time, and might have been so damaning that she is infertile.[/quote]I don't think the Undying said anything on point.

To be sure, MMD's spell that ruined Rhaego in utero to zombify Drogo could have been so damning / damaging to render her infertile. Or not. Has she noticed medical changes in her cycle? Other hints? She hasn't had another opportunity to conceive since Drogo, so far as I know.

[Black Wizard]

There hasn't been anything mentioned about her periods, so that cycle could be working as normal. I [i]think[/i] it might be possible for a woman's menstrual cycle to function as normal but the eggs deposited in the womb are infertile. I'm not inclined to search periods in Google so someone else can do it or comment if they already have knoweledge of that subject.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1299787' date='Apr 3 2008, 17.02']There hasn't been anything mentioned about her periods, so that cycle could be working as normal. I [i]think[/i] it might be possible for a woman's menstrual cycle to function as normal but the eggs deposited in the womb are infertile.[/quote]I tend to [i]think[/i] the same. But, hey, it's magic. Anything's possible. If there had been a mention of Dany having medical problems, that might have suggested that MMD was foretelling, not just trash talking. We can't infer anything from the absence of such information.

[mcbigski]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1298892' date='Apr 3 2008, 07.31']I never thought of it like that, but would Stannis be willing to suffer such humiliation after all the bother he's been though?[/quote]

What humiliation? Dany arrives, with dragons, asserting her claim to the Iron Throne. Stannis has belly ached about 37 times about he should have been Lord of Storm's End. They would have much to gain by an alliance, not only politically, but in the battle against the Others. To me, Dany is the only candidate Stannis could end up yielding to without humiliation.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1299518' date='Apr 3 2008, 21.31']She hasn't had another opportunity to conceive since Drogo, so far as I know.[/quote]
Indeed.

If she had another opportunity, would she use moon tea?

She does not expect her womb to quicken, so she has no reason to prevent the impossible.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1298494' date='Apr 3 2008, 02.37']didn't Edric go to the Free Cities, thanks to Davos?[/quote]
Yes, which makes it possible for Dany to come across him before hopping over to Westeros.

[Mezeh]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1299126' date='Apr 3 2008, 10.24']And why is Myrcella too much Lannister for Daenerys?

When and why?[/quote]


Because she is Lannister. Anyway Daenerys has more reasons to hate Lannisters then to hate Robert’s son. And she will probably learn that Myrcella is bastard too.

The reason for engagement was to forge alliance between Lannisters and Martells and provide Martells with a reason to support the Iron Throne. We know that Doran Martell actually never had such an intention. So when Dorne will support Dany openly the engagement would be no longer necessary. This is different from Joff and Sansa case since Sansa importance even grew after her father was executed.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Mezeh' post='1302533' date='Apr 6 2008, 08.40']The reason for engagement was to forge alliance between Lannisters and Martells and provide Martells with a reason to support the Iron Throne. We know that Doran Martell actually never had such an intention.[/quote]
Anyway, it was recognized that Myrcella had a claim to Iron Throne, should both Joffrey and Tommen die. And that Storm´s End would eventually be given away to the next surviving sibling of king.
[quote name='Mezeh' post='1302533' date='Apr 6 2008, 08.40']So when Dorne will support Dany openly the engagement would be no longer necessary. This is different from Joff and Sansa case since Sansa importance even grew after her father was executed.[/quote]
No, it is not different. Robb Stark was nominally attainted for rebellion. Nevertheless the Lannisters acted as if Sansa´s claim mattered - they did not simply disinherit all Starks for rebellion and give the North away as they pleased. It was through fake Arya that Ramsay Bolton got Winterfell eventually.

Dorne would keep their options open regarding the best way to grab the claims of the Lannisters after they come out on Daenerys´s side, win and install Daenerys on Iron Throne. Storm´s End and Casterly Rock would be available, and giving them to Trystane through Myrcella would remain an option till a better way is found.

[Mezeh]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1302656' date='Apr 6 2008, 06.40']Anyway, it was recognized that Myrcella had a claim to Iron Throne, should both Joffrey and Tommen die. And that Storm´s End would eventually be given away to the next surviving sibling of king.[/quote]

This is exactly the point. Myrcella claim to the Iron Throne would be based on her been Usurper daughter and her claim to the Iron Throne would go together with her claim to Storm End. This is potentially dangerous to Daenerys. To give to Martells both Storm and Castlery Rock via marriage would mean that three out of the seven major domain would be in the hand of one family and this mean that all others would be very displeased about that. A good king should seek after stability in his realm and this would be just the opposite.
With legitimizing Edric Dany would face none of this problem. Edric would become the Lord of Storm End and will enter line of succession to the Iron Throne but he would not be able to rebel against Dany since denying her authority for him would mean denying his own right. And of the same time Myrcella and Stannis both would loose rights to Storm End. So Dany could hit several hires with the same shot.

[mcbigski]

Which gets me thinking about the Baratheon line of succession. (Robert), (Joffrey), Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Shireen, (Renly). Then what? Who is Stannis's heir should Shireen predecease him? The Estermonts, Florents (in Shireen's case) and Targaryens are all distaff relations, so they wouldn't be next, right?

Practically, it's probably whoever sits the Throne would name, but is there a Harry the Heir type of person somewhere out there?