The Ultimate Cliché

[Shewoman]

As far as the posssible cliche inherent in R+L=J, that doesn't mean that Martin will go there. I seriously doubt that there's a dragon-shaped birthmark on Jon's body anywhere. I can see Jon rejecting his Targaryen heritage in order to be a Stark, or staying on the Wall to protect the nation, or dying before anyone gets around to telling him who his parents were. And, if the Others attack, absolutely no one is going to be trying to establish genealogies.

Lady Blackfish, I think I'd run through several alphabets worth of words before I called Rhaegar "competent." As I recall, he wasn't gifted as a warrior knight and, in fact, began his training in that area quite late. Harrenhal is one of few tournaments he won (maybe the only one). He seems to have based his actions on his understanding of a prophecy, but (as he came to realize later), his interpretation was incorrect: the prophecy referred not to him but to one of his children. Whoops. Having come to the conclusion that he needed a third child, even though he was the Crown Prince of an occasionally polygamous family he didn't offer Lyanna Stark matrimony or power and advancement to her family; he either kidnapped her or allowed her to go with him without--so far as we know at this point--either of them leaving a word of explanation for anyone.

THEN, when an utterly predictable war breaks out about this, he does very little to safeguard the child for whose sake all the hoo-hah is about. Our best knowledge at this point is that he sequestered pregnant Lyanna in an isolated spot and sent three of his KG to guard her. If he provided any medical personnel to help her bear this all-important child, we've yet to hear of it. Those particular KG were powerful, but they were overrun by Ned and his six buddies. If Robert's men had attacked (and I'm betting Robert would have brought more than six guys), the 3 KG would probably not have been able to protect Lyanna and her child, if she had one. And, of course, if he married her he neglected to leave any evidence (at least none has come to light so far) or to tell anyone. He spoke to Jaime right before leaving for the Trident about planning to make some changes: how hard would it have been to add, "Oh, and I married Lyanna Stark. If anyone asks, the evidence is buried in the godswood at Winterfell. Toodles--"

I do think he had the good of the realm at heart. But, aside from incandescent hair and a voice like Thom Yorke's, I'm not sure how much else he had going for him.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1485073' date='Aug 18 2008, 17.46']Lady Blackfish, I think I'd run through several alphabets worth of words before I called Rhaegar "competent." As I recall, he wasn't gifted as a warrior knight and, in fact, began his training in that area quite late. Harrenhal is one of few tournaments he won (maybe the only one). He seems to have based his actions on his understanding of a prophecy, but (as he came to realize later), his interpretation was incorrect: the prophecy referred not to him but to one of his children. Whoops.[/quote]
Well, I do think that it was the intended characterization. Not that he is impervious to mistakes in the view of the narrative authority, but it does seem to be his reputation. Isn't there a Jorah quote that denotes him as very able? I think competency (specifically, effortless competency) is extremely attractive to readers, GRRM knows reader mindset and tends to adorn several of his characters larger than life characters with a Big Badass Aura Of Effortless Competency (the males anyway; the women get a Big Beautiful Aura of Intangible Otherworldly Attractiveness ... combine the two and you get The Perfect Woman, Lyanna). Rhaegar being so suddenly successful at Harrenhal by virtue of little else than just deciding to be shows that effortless competency perfectly, IMO. It creates a very alluring image.

However does GRRM also play with the idea of ideals and ideal images having a downside or dark side. So definitely Rhaegar's decisions are up for criticism, IMO.

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1485073' date='Aug 18 2008, 17.46']Having come to the conclusion that he needed a third child, even though he was the Crown Prince of an occasionally polygamous family he didn't offer Lyanna Stark matrimony or power and advancement to her family; he either kidnapped her or allowed her to go with him without--so far as we know at this point--either of them leaving a word of explanation for anyone.[/quote]
Yeah I've wondered why he didn't just marry Lyanna out in the open, but it does incur the animosity of House Baratheon definitely, and House Stark probably. You could say, well the dragons have the crown, they have the authority, and what they say goes. However we also see a push and pull between different tiers of the feudal system. People do not consider only their oaths and allegiances, but also their cultural values, their self interests, etc. Oaths and allegiances have not prevented bannermen from becoming unruly before, and courting two major houses' wrath by forcing them to relinquish Lyanna may not be politically sound (maybe opposition to droit de seigneur is comparable?).

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1485073' date='Aug 18 2008, 17.46']But, aside from incandescent hair and a voice like Thom Yorke's, I'm not sure how much else he had going for him.[/quote]
Ehheheh, I kind of love you for this. But yeah, I'm not saying Rhaegar's actions didn't have awful consequences or that he didn't get so caught up in his mission as he saw it that he kind of let the rest of the world go to pot, but GRRM is fond of high tragedy and I think it is just up his alley to show how noble people try to do noble things and screw up asstastically.

[kettleblack]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1485073' date='Aug 18 2008, 17.46']As I recall, he wasn't gifted as a warrior knight and, in fact, began his training in that area quite late. Harrenhal is one of few tournaments he won (maybe the only one).[/quote]

yes, he won harrenhal. he didn't win any other tournies because he never relished in being good at combat/the tilt; they were just duties he had to do. he's complimented as being a very great warrior, just not as having enjoyed the task.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1484765' date='Aug 18 2008, 14.52']No, the similarity is there only if you imagine it so and look for it excessively.[/quote]

*shrug* To each his own, as you mention below. To you, the similarity is a great stretch. To me, it makes sense once I think about it.

[quote]Jon does have magic in him, that's true enough. But so do all of Ned's children (of course, in different scale, as Bran seems to be the most powerful and important in the magical aspect and Sansa has lost it all because of the early death of Lady). Are they hidden Targaryens as well?[/quote]

Considering Catelyn certainly seems to remember giving birth to them, I very much doubt Ned's children are hidden Targaryens. But I fail to see how this disproves or even diminishes the possibility of Jon being the son of Rhaegar.

[quote]As for the dreams in the crypts, well, yes - they mean that his place is not in Winterfell, but, if R+L=J, Jon is Lyanna's son as much as Rhaegar's and have as much right to be there, as the other children of Ned, who are half-Tullys after all. All the more so, if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a legal secret marriage, as some folks seem to believe.
However, if the dream is nothing, but a manifestation of his complex of being bastard, like I think it is (I admit, it's not as interesting as the Hidden Heir To The Throne Cliché), it makes as much, if not more common sense, at least to me.[/quote]

Don't forget the parts of the dreams where Jon hears Robb and Ned at the feasts or the dead, or when he sees a bloody grey direwolf after the deaths of Robb and Grey Wind - and, IIRC, before he hears of Robb's death. Likely most of Jon's dreams are purely natural ones born of his own insecurities, but there does sometimes seem to be a bit of magic in some of them.

[quote]Well, if that kind of dramatism is to the liking of all those who are pro-R+L=J, I really can't say or do much about it. It's not innovative or original in any way (unlike ASoIaF as a whole, which is funny) to me and it's not my kind of good written plot at all, but everyone has their right of taste, of course.[/quote]

Indeed. By now, I wish R+L=J is true not so much because it would add drama to the lives of Jon and other characters, but because - [i]strictly[/i] IMO - a lot of evidence has built up and logically led to it.

[b]Shewoman;[/b]

Yes, Rhaegar undeniably made a number of mistakes once he abducted/convinced Lyanna to go with him. It doesn't mean that, up until then, he hadn't been a worthy prince. Look at Robb and Brynden Tully - much lauded for their military skill, yet they both screwed up majorly when they didn't bother telling Edmure to let Tywin and his host return to the westerlands, instead giving Edmure only a vague "Hold Riverrun" order. About the only person who really thinks badly of Rhaegar is Robert. Even Ned, who would certainly have cause to hate Rhaegar if he'd indeed raped Lyanna, doesn't think badly of him.

And while Rhaegar didn't seem to be a martial prodigy, Jorah notes that he knew how to use a sword - IMO implying that he was at least competent with it. And let's not forget that Rhaegar dealt Robert a blow at the Trident that later required convalescence. Considering that Robert in his prime was certainly among the very best warriors, I'd say this puts Rhaegar, if not at the top, then at least near it.

[Shewoman]

Lady Blackfish, it is amazing how often I am kind of loved.

It is, of course, easy to poke holes in the actions of literary characters; we know how well or badly their decisions turned out. I do wonder why Rhaegar didn't propose honorable marriage to Lyanna in front of her family. You suggest that he didn't want to upset Baratheons (who would definitely have been upset) and Starks (who might have been). I don't know how much he had to do with Lyanna's disappearance; it's possible she just followed him without his knowledge. But it's hard to see how trying the upfront way could have turned out much worse than what actually happened.

Krafus, the comparison of Rhaegar and Robb is a valid one--as is the implied comparison of their fates. But, in spite of his military victories, I don't think many people in Westeros are going to remember Robb as a great general. Rhaegar, who did put a hurting on Robert when that was hard to do, did show courage in battle. And, for the record, I certainly don't hold Lyanna blameless for the reckless decisions she and Rhaegar seem to have made. I think that a man who had been Crown Prince all his life should have been a little more up on the realpolitik situation--but, of course, we don't know what plans they may have had that went awry.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1485328' date='Aug 18 2008, 22.55']Krafus, the comparison of Rhaegar and Robb is a valid one--as is the implied comparison of their fates. But, in spite of his military victories, I don't think many people in Westeros are going to remember Robb as a great general. Rhaegar, who did put a hurting on Robert when that was hard to do, did show courage in battle. And, for the record, I certainly don't hold Lyanna blameless for the reckless decisions she and Rhaegar seem to have made. I think that a man who had been Crown Prince all his life should have been a little more up on the realpolitik situation--but, of course, we don't know what plans they may have had that went awry.[/quote]

True, Robb will likely be remembered more for losing the war in a bedchamber and the horrible betrayal that led to his death than for his victories.

As for the consequences of Rhaegar and Lyanna apparently eloping, I've believed for several years that, up until Aerys had Brandon, Rickard and the others murdered, the whole thing could have been smoothed out somehow, especially if Lyanna had lived and been able to testify that she went with Rhaegar willingly. Brandon recklessly barging into the Red Keep and calling for Rhaegar to come out and die was IMO as much a cause of the war as Lyanna eloping (those two Starks sure had the wild blood, didn't they?). And, of course, the Rubicon was crossed with Aerys' murder spree.

[Lady Blackfish]

Shewoman, ahhah I didn't mean that as a backhanded compliment, I found it genuinely humorous ;) I have such a textbook love-hate (like-dislike, maybe) relationship with Rhaegar and his personality cult.

I think if Lyanna followed Rhaegar without any similar intention from him, he would have returned her. She might have been seeking sanctuary from her impending marriage, and we might be able to eke out a savior type personality for Rhaegar, buuuut ... that's too boneheaded even for [i]my[/i] conception of Rhaegar. If he didn't have a stake in her being there I don't think he'd court war. Plus I sense this thematic undercurrent of women's suffering in the various imprisoning aspects of a chivalric society falling on deaf ears.

[quote]But it's hard to see how trying the upfront way could have turned out much worse than what actually happened.[/quote]Like you said, could be a hindsight is 20/20 situation. We'll have to wait and see.

Rhaegar all in all seems to me to have woken up from his teenage melencholy very dramatically, but perhaps a moment too late. He's still a bit of an ivory tower dude, and he may have had more cosmic concerns on his mind than earthly politics. That too seems to me to be a tension that's right up GRRM's alley; clearly he has a fondness for the celestial, the melencholy, the wide-eyed, the dreamy, but he also substantiates the need to be more present in the real and earthly world. Rhaegar just was who he was, and suffered his consequences as a result.

Not that I tend to have too much sympathy for the whole Lovers Whose Love Is So Epic Its Worth The Rest Of The World Suffering For Their Epically Epic Love scenario, but the prophecy mitigates that for me.

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1485354' date='Aug 19 2008, 06.30']Not that I tend to have too much sympathy for the whole Lovers Whose Love Is So Epic Its Worth The Rest Of The World Suffering For Their Epically Epic Love scenario, but the prophecy mitigates that for me.[/quote]

The point was that he repeatedly epically failed to interpret rightly the prophecy. His first thought was that he, was the prince that was promised to save the world from a soon to come forthcoming doom. Melodramatic and vain in the extreme I'd say. Aemon tells us how he found ways to make his birth conform to that prophecy about the rebirth of dragons. That's when he started practicing his martial skills. Because if he would be a great warrior he'd be as good as a real dragon, right?

And then when after a while no doom appeared (and no real dragons either) and he started getting old, he decided instead that it must be his son that was the promised prince. And at this point to give a helping hand to the prince that was promised he decides the little prince must have two sisters just like Aegon the conqueror and he even names him and his little sister after the founding three. But his wife is not the womb of legends and after giving birth to a daughter refuses to complete the tally.

And now Rheagar decides that bending the precedent of history a bit (by having his second daughter with a different woman and maybe as bastard) and thereby breaking his marriage vows would be better than to give up his obsession with fulfilling prophecies of doom and gloom.

Does he care that he is fermenting a war for the sake of yet another lame attempt bolster a prophecy that has shown little signs of being fulfilled so far? No. And if we accept the theory that Jon is his son, we have there once again the epic fail of prophecy fulfillment. It was supposed to be a daughter after all. Did he ever stop to consider the 50% chance (actually more since in times of fear and war boys are born more often than girls) that it would be the wrong sex? Probably not. When was he ever mistaken after all?

Let's not forget that if he did have a second son there he was quite likely creating the condition for a second civil war like the Blackfyre rebellion.

And in the end it wasn't him and it wasn't his son Aegon and it wasn't even his other supposed son Jon. It was Dany, his rape-begotten sister who was conceived after he was already dead.

Some people learn from their mistakes. Others just repeat them ever more grandiosely.


[quote]Don't forget the parts of the dreams where Jon hears Robb and Ned at the feasts or the dead, or when he sees a bloody grey direwolf after the deaths of Robb and Grey Wind - and, IIRC, before he hears of Robb's death. Likely most of Jon's dreams are purely natural ones born of his own insecurities, but there does sometimes seem to be a bit of magic in some of them.[/quote]

If we agree that Jon's magical powers have no relevance to his supposed Targaryenish blood than this is really irrelevant. Others of the Old Gods' followers have prophetic dreams. So what's your point?

[quote]As for the consequences of Rhaegar and Lyanna apparently eloping, I've believed for several years that, up until Aerys had Brandon, Rickard and the others murdered, the whole thing could have been smoothed out somehow, especially if Lyanna had lived and been able to testify that she went with Rhaegar willingly. Brandon recklessly barging into the Red Keep and calling for Rhaegar to come out and die was IMO as much a cause of the war as Lyanna eloping (those two Starks sure had the wild blood, didn't they?). And, of course, the Rubicon was crossed with Aerys' murder spree.[/quote]

Doesn't Rheagar know his father? Remember how paranoid and bloodthirsty he has become since he was taken hostage by the Darlins? Likewise if Rheagar himself doesn't know how Brandon would react, wouldn't Lyanna know her own brother? Think about the famous hot wolf-blood that he has? Or of Robert's possessiveness? Expecting everything to turn out fine is Stork-ish. And in this society the family of the girl must approve a marriage. It's not the girl that says the 'Yes'.

[Lady Blackfish]

Um, well I was never arguing that Rhaegar was spotless ... but the difficulty in interpreting prophecies is a repeated idea in the series, as well as the idea that people in real life do act on conviction. He was apparently convinced about the prophecy and made intelligent though ultimately incorrect assumptions about it, and he paid, and the realm paid, and all I was saying was this is a very GRRM type story to write, and that it's a better story to me than Helen and Paris Meets Westeros. Vain and melodramatic? Sure depending on your POV, GRRM also appears fond of showing how perspective is the difference between confidence and arrogance, faith and fanaticism, focus and blindness, etc. I don't really have a problem with that so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. I'd still think that Rhaegar would meet the definition of a noble ideal as worked out by GRRM throughout the series; whether or not you personally like him is another story. I'm not fawning over him myself.

[Krafus]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1485471' date='Aug 19 2008, 02.25']If we agree that Jon's magical powers have no relevance to his supposed Targaryenish blood than this is really irrelevant. Others of the Old Gods' followers have prophetic dreams. So what's your point?[/quote]

The point is that [i]both[/i] the Stark lines and the Targaryen lines display magic and prophetic dreams. Yes, for now Jon's powers seem linked to his Stark heritage and the old gods... but that could change once he encounters Dany and her dragons. In any case, while to you it may seem like grasping at straws, his powers are for me another bit of circumstancial evidence that Jon likely is Rhaegar's son.

[quote]Doesn't Rheagar know his father? Remember how paranoid and bloodthirsty he has become since he was taken hostage by the Darlins? Likewise if Rheagar himself doesn't know how Brandon would react, wouldn't Lyanna know her own brother? Think about the famous hot wolf-blood that he has? Or of Robert's possessiveness? Expecting everything to turn out fine is Stork-ish. And in this society the family of the girl must approve a marriage. It's not the girl that says the 'Yes'.[/quote]

We don't know what Rhaegar and Lyanna expected would happen after they left. Some trouble was to be expected, of course. However, I doubt anyone could have anticipated how quickly the situation would deteriorate and reach the point of no return.

[Shewoman]

Lady Blackfish said, "Shewoman, ahhah I didn't mean that as a backhanded compliment, I found it genuinely humorous I have such a textbook love-hate (like-dislike, maybe) relationship with Rhaegar and his personality cult."

I didn't take it as a back-handed compliment. I thought it was funny.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1485718' date='Aug 19 2008, 09.44']The point is that [i]both[/i] the Stark lines and the Targaryen lines display magic and prophetic dreams. Yes, for now Jon's powers seem linked to his Stark heritage and the old gods... but that could change once he encounters Dany and her dragons. In any case, while to you it may seem like grasping at straws, his powers are for me another bit of circumstancial evidence that Jon likely is Rhaegar's son.[/quote]

But why the prophetic dreams (or magic in general) have to point towards any Targaryen connection? The Ghost of High Heart has prophetic dreams too. Is she a Targaryen?
Besides, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, I fail to see how the magic inside him has to do anything with it. Rhaegar was never connected with sorcery, nor was Lyanna.


[quote name='Krafus' post='1485718' date='Aug 19 2008, 09.44']We don't know what Rhaegar and Lyanna expected would happen after they left. Some trouble was to be expected, of course. However, I doubt anyone could have anticipated how quickly the situation would deteriorate and reach the point of no return.[/quote]

Umm... I don't know about that. In Westerosi society a girl can't just run away from home and hook up with somebody because she just feels like it and in the same time, to doesn't expect bad consequenses. Lyanna was betrothed to the Lord of Storm's End, the master of the Stormlands and was daughter to the Lord of Winterfell and the whole North - she can't just run away and think that they would just shrug it off and let her be just like this. That is, of course, if she had a mildly functional brain. She may had not.
The same goes for Rhaegar. At least, you can argue that Lyanna was raised in a closed environment and didn't knew all that well how things work, but Rhaegar was Prince of the Realm and heir to the Iron Throne. He [i]must[/i] have known that [i]seroius[/i] trouble will come because of that. Maybe he didn't care, because he thought himself untouchable, or maybe he was an utter fool. I don't know.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1485767' date='Aug 19 2008, 10.35']But why the prophetic dreams (or magic in general) have to point towards any Targaryen connection? The Ghost of High Heart has prophetic dreams too. Is she a Targaryen?
Besides, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, I fail to see how the magic inside him has to do anything with it. Rhaegar was never connected with sorcery, nor was Lyanna.[/quote]

It's a connection because Targaryens other than Dany have had prophetic dreams. Aemon's brother Daeron, for one, predicted the death of his uncle Baelor Breakspear while Dunk would survive.

[quote]Umm... I don't know about that. In Westerosi society a girl can't just run away from home and hook up with somebody because she just feels like it and in the same time, to doesn't expect bad consequenses. Lyanna was betrothed to the Lord of Storm's End, the master of the Stormlands and was daughter to the Lord of Winterfell and the whole North - she can't just run away and think that they would just shrug it off and let her be just like this. That is, of course, if she had a mildly functional brain. She may had not.[/quote]

Actually, I expect that common girls can run away without much consequence since their families lack the resources to do much beyond disowning them. We've also heard of at least one noblewoman of the Arryn line who was disowned after, IIRC, running away with a sellsword. However, I agree that with Lyanna being in the main Stark line and betrothed to the Lord of Storm's End was a guarantee of trouble somewhere down the road.

[quote]The same goes for Rhaegar. At least, you can argue that Lyanna was raised in a closed environment and didn't knew all that well how things work, but Rhaegar was Prince of the Realm and heir to the Iron Throne. He [i]must[/i] have known that [i]seroius[/i] trouble will come because of that. Maybe he didn't care, because he thought himself untouchable, or maybe he was an utter fool. I don't know.[/quote]

Neither do I. As I've mentioned upthread, I believe Rhaegar made mistakes from the moment he abducted/convinced Lyanna to go with him.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1486228' date='Aug 19 2008, 15.12']It's a connection because Targaryens other than Dany have had prophetic dreams. Aemon's brother Daeron, for one, predicted the death of his uncle Baelor Breakspear while Dunk would survive.[/quote]

So, let me put this like this...

[i]Some [/i]people who have prophetic dreams are Targaryens but not [i]all [/i]people who have prophetic dreams are Targaryens.


[quote name='Krafus' post='1486228' date='Aug 19 2008, 15.12']Actually, I expect that common girls can run away without much consequence since their families lack the resources to do much beyond disowning them. We've also heard of at least one noblewoman of the Arryn line who was disowned after, IIRC, running away with a sellsword. However, I agree that with Lyanna being in the main Stark line and betrothed to the Lord of Storm's End was a guarantee of trouble somewhere down the road.[/quote]

I never meant common girls. I spoke of girls and women from the noble Houses, not the smallfolk.
And the example you gave with that Arryn woman proves that they can't just run away on their own without bad consequences and they should know that, and Lyanna should have known that.

[Krafus]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1486235' date='Aug 19 2008, 16.22']So, let me put this like this...

[i]Some [/i]people who have prophetic dreams are Targaryens but not [i]all [/i]people who have prophetic dreams are Targaryens.[/quote]

True. Yet, tenuous as it may be, it's a link between Jon and a possible Targayen heritage. Another bit of evidence, even if circumstancial, to add to the body pointing toward R+L=J.

[quote]I never meant common girls. I spoke of girls and women from the noble Houses, not the smallfolk.
And the example you gave with that Arryn woman proves that they can't just run away on their own without bad consequences and they should know that, and Lyanna should have known that.[/quote]

Yes, she should have known that. Perhaps Rhaegar convinced her that his motives outweighed the possible consequences. In any case, we won't know for sure until someone (most likely Howland Reed) tells us what happened at the Tower of Joy.

[kettleblack]

face it: if it does turn out he's got royal blood in him, he'll save the world and continue commanding the wall. he's not going anywhere.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1486490' date='Aug 19 2008, 18.52']True. Yet, tenuous as it may be, it's a link between Jon and a possible Targayen heritage. Another bit of evidence, even if circumstancial, to add to the body pointing toward R+L=J.[/quote]

The problem is, that most of the evidence for R+L=J is as circumstancial and most of the times can mean absolutely nothing without puting it in the context of the theory. It is not bad way to put on piles on evidence to the theory, but very few chunks from that pile are rock-hard, straight-forward and undeniable; most are just stretched conjectures, just like this one.

[quote name='kettleblack' post='1486490' date='Aug 19 2008, 19.39']face it: if it does turn out he's got royal blood in him, he'll save the world and continue commanding the wall. he's not going anywhere.[/quote]

Then what would be the point of him to have Targaryen blood? Can't he just save the world just as good if he is not a Targaryen? Besides, we are not sure that by the end the Wall would even exist, or be needed ever again. [i]Besides[/i], if he turns out to be The Hidden Prince Heir [i]and[/i] Saves The World, wouldn't that be too much of a cliché, no matter if he chooses at the end to remain at the Wall (if we assume that there would be still Wall and she will need men remaining in it)?

[kettleblack]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1486803' date='Aug 20 2008, 01.26']Then what would be the point of him to have Targaryen blood? Can't he just save the world just as good if he is not a Targaryen? Besides, we are not sure that by the end the Wall would even exist, or be needed ever again. [i]Besides[/i], if he turns out to be The Hidden Prince Heir [i]and[/i] Saves The World, wouldn't that be too much of a cliché, no matter if he chooses at the end to remain at the Wall (if we assume that there would be still Wall and she will need men remaining in it)?[/quote]

fair call, i didn't think of whether or not the wall would still be standing.

the point of him to have targaryen blood might be that the prophecy required someone of that blood line? this is still assuming he has targaryen blood.

but like i said, i hadn't thought about whether the wall would still be standing and whether the night watch would still exist... i suppose if they defeated the others forever and made peace with the wildlings.. i could foresee a very different jon snow...

[brandon blackfyre]

Never forget what Gorghan of Old Ghis said about prophecies - they'll bite your cock off every time. So be carefull!
Not arguing with anyone just wanted to give warning :)

[Maia]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1486235' date='Aug 19 2008, 15.22']And the example you gave with that Arryn woman proves that they can't just run away on their own without bad consequences and they should know that, and Lyanna should have known that.[/quote]

I would say that disowning and a civil war are quite different consequences and I am not sure how Lyanna was supposed to deduce something like that from the Arryn incident. Also, Aegon the Unworthy bedded scores of his lords daughters and Robert did at least one and nobody went to war with either of them. Nor were young women in question even disowned. In fact, as far as we know something like that has never happened until Robert's Rebellion. So, yes, I don't see why either Rhaegar or Lyanna would have expected anything more than unpleasantness that could be smoothed over with gifts and favors from the crown.

The one person who _should_ have known not to behave like he did was Brandon. I mean, the Duskendale precedent was right there in front of him, yet he chose to storm to KL. IMHO, Aerys and Brandon were far more responsible for this war than R&L and no, Lyanna wasn't Brandon's keeper and wasn't responsible for his idiotic actions.

Re: Jon, I find heroic bastards to be a huge cliché in itself, whether they are also secretly royal or not. I would have preferred him just being Ned's and _not_ becoming any savior or Stark leader or anything along those lines. But Ned's treatment of Jon wouldn't make any sense to me if Jon was his - and would also seriously tarnish Ned's image in my eyes, because it would make him gratuitously cruel both to Jon and to Cat. So, I see no choice but for Jon to be R&L's.

The outcome I sincerely hope for is that Jon plays an important role in the war against the Others, but doesn't become a Savior, King, Lord Stark, etc. and that it turns out that despite being Rhaegar's son he _didn't_ inherit any Targ gifts. I mean, the Targs practiced incest for a reason, IMHO - to ensure that the dragon gift wasn't bred out of them. It would be a very great irony if somebody who was conceived to be the third head of the dragon just didn't have what it takes and had to be replaced by somebody else.