Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic!

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

I hope GRRM has great things in mind for Sansa after her trials and tribulations, and just because she is so enjoyable... but he has a penchant for Stark blood.

[aussiecossack]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1585932' date='Nov 12 2008, 15.30']Come now. Do we say Super-Awesome [i]Elasticness[/i]? No sir. It would be patently absurd to to so. We say Super-Awesome-[i]Elasticity[/i]. Therefore, the correct nouning of Sansa's adjective is Super-Awesome-Fantastic[b]ity[/b].

(Aussie Cossack is to be forgiven the same solecism, because he is from Australia, where the english language is but an unsubstantiated rumour.)[/quote]

This made me laugh.....until I saw it was written by a Yank. Then I vomited at the unadulterated hypocrisy of it ;)

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='aussiecossack' post='1592246' date='Nov 17 2008, 22.39']This made me laugh.....until I saw it was written by a Yank. Then I vomited at the unadulterated hypocrisy of it ;)[/quote]
More likely the vomit was caused some strange centrifugal forces acting on your sense of equilibrium as a result of being on the upside-down part of the planet. Or perhaps that's what you meant? It can be difficult for us right-side-up people to understand the peculiar convict's argot. :P

Fortunately, Sansa speaks proper northern language, so we are never in any doubt about how truly Super-Awesome-Fantastic her every utterance is!

[Stratonice]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1588176' date='Nov 13 2008, 23.17']And I assert that all this is very stupid.
I consider this kind of naivety a form of stupidity.
Moreover, I honestly can't empathize very much with her in that situation. Personally, I can empathize much more with Arya, when she did some stupid things. I understand her more. But it's a matter of personal feelings and sympathy.
All right?[/quote]

Then I'm not really sure in what sense you're using the word stupid.

This wasn't about Arya at all, but I wouldn't call her or anything she has done stupid either (despite liking her a lot less now than I did in the beginning). What has Arya done that you would label as stupid?


[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1588176' date='Nov 13 2008, 23.17']There isn't a quote because it wasn't a PoV of hers. We can't read what she [i]was thinking[/i]. I've already answered about this to A wilding.
We know that she was "in love" (call it as you like...) with Joffrey 1)before the trident misadventure 2)immediately after the trident misadventure 3)in the next PoV. It's obvious that we can't read her feelings in Ned's PoV, but I think it's logical to assume that she was blindly in love with Joffrey in that moment too. So I conclude that she didn't want to bother him. My interpretation is different from yours. This is my impression.[/quote]

But then you're singling out only one of her ideals. What about the ideal for a good and gracious lady? A lady doesn't practice swordfighting with commoners or fight princes (like Arya did), nor lie or call prince charming a liar in front of the Court (like Sansa's own choices were) or demanding innocents be punished for what someone else did (like Cersei). Or what about the galantry she expects from noble males (true knights and all that) which certainly doesn't involve attacking innocents or lying to the King (like Joffrey did)? She's faced with a situation she has no idea of how to handle since no one (not her sister, not the prince, not the King or the Queen) are acting the way they should. To pick only one of the ideals from her fairy tale fantasy and claim that one is the only explanation for her action when there's no support for that conclusion doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Besides, if her crush on prince charming and an unwillingness to bother him had been her motivation, wouldn't she have supported his statement about what happened then?

[Margaery]

I have to quote myself, because I hate her with the burning passion of a thousand suns. Sansa is responsible for:

1. Killing of Mycah
2. Killing of Lady. Oh, and she wouldn't have cared about Nymeria getting killed, when Arya was horrified at Lady's
3. Insulting, degrading and blaming her sister for all above
4. Trusting and tattle-telling to the Queen all about her father's plans; consequently causing her own imprisonment, her father's death and Arya's shitty life to this point
5. Still continuess to be stupid, simple-minded, frivolous and scornful of the ugly, the poor and the commonfolk
6. Treated Tyrion like shit at their wedding (I'm nto talking abiotut he wedding night, because that was actually rather nice of Tyrion to leave her the choice, and understandable that she took it)
7. Trust in Littlfeinger, after eveyrthing that's passed, after he was in the Council that tricked her into believing her father would be savedm, and AFTER LYSA'S CONFESSION.
8. Never thinsk about Arya. She even aknowledges this in one of her last chapters in GoT, that she had forgotten to ask about her LITTLE sister.
9. Never acknowledging any of these mistakes as her own, or admiting that she has been disgustingly stupid and that Arya was right all along

[yoface]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1596955' date='Nov 21 2008, 15.14']I have to quote myself, because I hate her with the burning passion of a thousand suns. Sansa is responsible for:

1. Killing of Mycah
2. Killing of Lady. Oh, and she wouldn't have cared about Nymeria getting killed, when Arya was horrified at Lady's
3. Insulting, degrading and blaming her sister for all above
4. Trusting and tattle-telling to the Queen all about her father's plans; consequently causing her own imprisonment, her father's death and Arya's shitty life to this point
5. Still continuess to be stupid, simple-minded, frivolous and scornful of the ugly, the poor and the commonfolk
6. Treated Tyrion like shit at their wedding (I'm nto talking abiotut he wedding night, because that was actually rather nice of Tyrion to leave her the choice, and understandable that she took it)
7. Trust in Littlfeinger, after eveyrthing that's passed, after he was in the Council that tricked her into believing her father would be savedm, and AFTER LYSA'S CONFESSION.
8. Never thinsk about Arya. She even aknowledges this in one of her last chapters in GoT, that she had forgotten to ask about her LITTLE sister.
9. Never acknowledging any of these mistakes as her own, or admiting that she has been disgustingly stupid and that Arya was right all along[/quote]

I completely agree with everything you said. I assume this topic is meant to be funny but I hate her so much that I am having problems finding anything to laugh about....Now if everyone was calling her super awesome pooptastic, that would be funny.

Sansa Sucks!

[Margaery]

I know it's supposed to be funny, but so many poeple love her that I have to go against the tide :-p

For the record....YEAH!!!! SANSA'S SUPERAWESOME, AND I WISH SHE WAS MY BESTEST FRIEND 4EVAH!!! YAYYY!!!! KYAAAA!!!!
(just so people don't think I don't have a sense of humourXD)

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='yoface' post='1597006' date='Nov 21 2008, 19.06']I completely agree with everything you said. I assume this topic is meant to be funny but I hate her so much that I am having problems finding anything to laugh about....Now if everyone was calling her super awesome pooptastic, that would be funny.

Sansa Sucks![/quote]
Can I just ask you, honestly here I'm just curious -- why it is that when people express opinions contrary to the majority, a swarm of people feel the need to swarm in and set the story straight? So people disagree, so some people like the character -- does it offend you somehow, that you feel motivated to knock us all off our high horse or something? I'm not trying to be abrasive, I just want to know. People see things differently all the time, right?

[Margaery]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1597062' date='Nov 22 2008, 01.56']Can I just ask you, honestly here I'm just curious -- why it is that when people express opinions contrary to the majority, a swarm of people feel the need to swarm in and set the story straight? So people disagree, so some people like the character -- does it offend you somehow, that you feel motivated to knock us all off our high horse or something? I'm not trying to be abrasive, I just want to know. People see things differently all the time, right?[/quote]

The thing with Sansa, I think, is that she attacks many of the things that make me proud to be a woman. Just when I think women had stopped being depicted as idiots, airheads and weak, useless, spineless things that only drag people down and haveto be saved, Sansa turns up. For me, she's more than just a character; she attacks the essence of feminism and kickass girls. I feel insulted every time I read that Sansa is a realistic girl. I don't kknow if those people consider themlseves to be stupid, but I certainly don't. She embodies everything I hate about classic portrayal of girls in fiction
It gets even worse when people praise her for things she obviously isn't (compassionate, kind, intelligent, nice, sweet)

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597069' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.04']I feel insulted every time I read that Sansa is a realistic girl.[/quote]
Girls are all individuals. If some people identify with her that is their honest and truthful identification. I think women should be able to be as varied as men.

She is the way she is because her society socializes girls that way, and that is very realistic. A whole lot of feminism has been devoted to showing how socialization creates very real effects on girls' confidences, priorities, etc.

Lots of girls in our times feel they are stupid because they aren't encouraged in certain subjects like science or math, or weak because they aren't encouraged in sports, powerless because they aren't encouraged in careers. They are not feminist failures, they're human beings.

[Margaery]

The thing is, Sansa isn't consistent with her background and her society. Let's look at the people she grew up with, and other women in her world:

Grew up with:
-Robb. Strong honour and morals, nice kid to everyone, not arrogant or stuck up
-Jon. Same as Robb
-Arya. Same as above, less nice but capable of great acts of kindness and heroism
-Bran. Same as Robb, even nicer
-Rickon. Doesn't count, since they barely knew each other

Does Sansa fit with them? No. She lies, betrays, goes behind people's backs, is stuck-up, thinks she's better than anyone and that she deserves better than anyone, never recognizes her glaring mistakes, is only nice to the noble, beautiful and rich, doesn't care she gets people killed

Other women in Westeros:

The Norht: I won't count the wildlings, as they are a different culture, and neither the Ironborn. We're left with Meera Reed, the Mormonts and Jeyne Poole. Jeyne is even worse than Sansa. The others are fine, kind and nice, and capable of being on their own

The Riverlands/Vale: We have Mya, Catelyn, Miranda, Lysa. Mya is a bastard, so if you want I won't count her (but she's cool, anywayXD). Catelyn is a woman who takes action, makes decisions, negotiates really well and gives good counsel. She's also kind to everyone and she commits but one betrayal (and out of love, and not selfishness). Miranda is obviously in control of her life, and does as she pleases. Lysa is crazy, but she's the Lady of her castle, and takes no shit from anyone

The Rock: Cersei, Genna, Myrcella...yeah, cool. Cersei's crazy, but Myrcella and Genna are strong and kind

The Reach: The Queen of Thorns, Margaery. Also cool, capable and nice (well, QoT is not so niceXD)

The Stormlands and King's Landing: Taena Merryweather. Stannis' wife. Shireen, who's sweet, and shy and nice, and overlooked and ignored all her life. I bet if Sansa looked into her ugly face OMG, she'd just *have to* clean her own face afterwards. By the way, Shireen's also nice

I won't bring Dorne into this, because it would be ridiculous. They are a different culture, were women are actually awesome

So, you see? She still doesn't fit. She goes against her good upbringing and other examples of women to be an annoying and weak person who lies stupidly, betrays and causes problems for everyone, and she's not even after some great goals, she's just dumb and superficial

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']The thing is, Sansa isn't consistent with her background and her society.[/quote]
Sansa believes the stories her society tells her, it's almost scary how much you can trace many of her beliefs to those stories. The fact that you mention her as a feminist failure of sorts means you can identify her as being connected to literary history, yes? She is familiar, yes? She seems like she is out of those old fashioned stories ... which happen to be the kind her society tells. She is an unrealistic [i]person[/i], because she pays more attention to how the stories say life should be than to how it is, but not an unrealistic [i]character[/i], because in real life some people simply are more grounded and realistic and others more naive and head-in-the-clouds.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']Grew up with:[/quote]
I think Sansa is definitely not as [i]brave[/i] as the rest of her family, nor is she a person of conviction like many of them are. But I don't think she lacks morals, rather she is timid and cannot always stand up for what she is taught is right. In some cases too there are issues of mixed messages. There are still other ways she is similar to her family, her idealism and romanticism for example. I do not think we are going to agree if we debated Sansa's niceness, so that way lies madness. Plus I think we can agree that nice doesn't have much to do with realism in the context of feminism (it might have something to do with her upbringing, but even if I did agree that she is devoid of niceness, one of the reasons GRRM's families don't feel artificial is intra-group variation).

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']We're left with Meera Reed, the Mormonts and Jeyne Poole. Jeyne is even worse than Sansa. The others are fine, kind and nice, and capable of being on their own[/quote]
Again leaving aside the issue of "nice" -- it is definitely true that at least a significant portion of northern women have a streak of resolve and independence. However, I'm not sure that means Sansa is unrealistic. Sam Tarly is raised by one of the most masculinely coded fathers we see in the series, in a thoroughly martial society, and he is cowardly and bookish. The resilience of the northern women is informed by necessity, the harshness of their environment and the frequent enough absence of their men makes it simply practical to have those skills and proclivities, thus the culture will absorb that. But for Sansa there is no such necessity, she's the fourth heir of the most powerful man in the north, and in the absence of a need for particular responsibility or resilience, individual variation surely accounts for her personality. Arya is not active because she needs to be, rather it is her individual personality. Sansa is merely a different person, one whose intrinsic qualities interacts with her socialization in a particular way.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']Catelyn is a woman who takes action, makes decisions, negotiates really well and gives good counsel. She's also kind to everyone and she commits but one betrayal (and out of love, and not selfishness). Miranda is obviously in control of her life, and does as she pleases. Lysa is crazy, but she's the Lady of her castle, and takes no shit from anyone[/quote]
Catelyn was also her father's heir for a while, and her father's favorite too, so even once her brother was born it's easy to see her being included among his deliberations and decisions (she doesn't strike me as someone who is used to not being listened to by the men she is closest to, at least not until Robb is in charge). Lysa is taking charge after maybe fifteen years of feeling used like chattel, she's way on the other side of the maiden-to-mother transition and has more cause to arrive at the decision to [i]finally[/i] rebel than Sansa. She is quite clearly trying to take possession of what she felt has been denied to her her whole life long: choice. Sansa had not suffered in such a way to come to the same conclusions.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']Cersei, Genna, Myrcella...yeah, cool. Cersei's crazy, but Myrcella and Genna are strong and kind[/quote]
Note that Cersei too has to [i]suffer[/i] before she arrives at her (warped) proto-feminist tendencies. Genna again is an adult, and that amount of life experience surely informs much of her toughness (and it's no surprise that Olenna Tyrell at, what, 60-something? 70-something? is one of the toughest ladies in the series). Sure, there is an amount of what is ostensibly Lannister nature here too, but Tommen is not strong and Joffrey is not kind. If they can fall short of their examples, so can a girl (again we are talking about realism and believability here).

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']The Queen of Thorns, Margaery. Also cool, capable and nice (well, QoT is not so niceXD)[/quote]
Margaery is likely quite clever, yes, but she has never showed sign of rebellion. She seems to do what she is told and play her part (it happens that she doesn't mind, though). None of the ladies associated with the deeper south seem to object to the lifestyle of ladies fair and their handsome knights either. Margaery has a female role model who has been allowed to solidify a power-behind-the-throne position within her house for decades past the death of her own husband. This applies to Sansa in no way. GRRM has simply not given Sansa the situation that would enable these departures from indoctrinated female docility (her mother is assertive, yes, but not a schemer so its unlikely she would train any of her children to be Machiavellis, plus her husband is still alive and in charge ... Olenna doesn't seem to have sunk her hooks into Mace, rather its her grandchildren who are her proteges).

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597084' date='Nov 21 2008, 20.27']Taena Merryweather. Stannis' wife. Shireen, who's sweet, and shy and nice, and overlooked and ignored all her life. I bet if Sansa looked into her ugly face OMG, she'd just *have to* clean her own face afterwards. By the way, Shireen's also nice[/quote]
Taena is from Myr isn't she? Selyse is not nice either, she is hard but she doesn't come across as an independent thinker, nor is she very morally strong (she is easy prey for R'hllor), nor does she really do much for herself. She's bitter, I don't think that has much to do with feminist ideals of a healthy human being. And I have the feeling that if a genie suddenly granted Selyse beauty, she would be quite vain about it.

About ugliness in general -- since I get the feeling that is a big source of animosity here -- Sansa is beautiful, she did not ask to be born that way but she is it, and moreover I concede it is important to her. However it's clear that she equates her beauty with her valuableness to other people, and blaming her for that seems to treat a symptom and not a cause. It's the society's standards that say that women are valuable only so long as they are sexually attractive, and she is under that pressure too. She is capable of being shallow, yes, in the sense that she equates beauty with goodness, but I again that is [i]believable[/i] given her gullible tendencies.

[Maia]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1596955' date='Nov 21 2008, 19.14']I have to quote myself, because I hate her with the burning passion of a thousand suns. Sansa is responsible for:

1. Killing of Mycah[/quote]

I never cease to be surprised by this accusation, since Sandor killed Mycah _before_ he even knew that Arya was found. Surely if any "good" characters are responsible for Mycah's fate, then they are Arya and Ned? The "stark" truth here is that if Arya didn't attack Joff, Mycah would have been alive. And that Ned, whom Sansa told the truth immediately after the incident, should have gotten Robert to order that Mycah should be spared.
Oh, and what did that fount of honor, Ned, did when Mycah was foully murdered? Did he perhaps try to get some justice for him, sought some punishment for the Hound? Nope. In the end, for honorable Ned when justice was only about some commoner, it was expendable.

[quote]2. Killing of Lady.[/quote]

Not sure how. Robert _knew_ that Joffrey was lying and Lady had nothing to do with the incident in any case, but ordered it anyway. Ned carried out the deed. As to being horrified, well, Arya's wolf was safe and sound, even if away, so she had that luxury. We don't know how Sansa would have reacted vice-versa, since it is her pet which was killed.


[quote]Trusting and tattle-telling to the Queen all about her father's plans; consequently causing her own imprisonment, her father's death and Arya's shitty life to this point[/quote]

Strange, I seem to remember Ned himself telling Cersei that he intended to expose her unless she left and LF betraying Ned with the Goldcloaks.
What plans could Sansa tell Cersei about? That she and Arya were leaving? Because those were the only "plans" that Ned entrusted her with ;). Well, that may or may not have had negative consequences for Sansa and Arya (personally, I think that anybody with eyes could see that they were leaving and both Cersei and LF had spies), but it had no bearing on Ned's fall, since _he_ intended to stay anyway and already confided his intentions to Cersei and LF. Sansa is indeed her father's daughter :).

[Margaery]

[quote]Sansa believes the stories her society tells her, it's almost scary how much you can trace many of her beliefs to those stories[/quote]

Then why does no other westerosi woman act like her?

[quote]She seems like she is out of those old fashioned stories ... which happen to be the kind her society tells[/quote]

Not really. They were old-fashoned stories, but in medieval times, there were warrior women and very cunnig political women. Also, Westeros is most certainly not real medieval society, because all of their women are strong and have power (except for Sansa, that is)

[quote]She is an unrealistic person, because she pays more attention to how the stories say life should be than to how it is, but not an unrealistic character, because in real life some people simply are more grounded and realistic and others more naive and head-in-the-clouds[/quote]

Not after all she's been through. The fact that she remains stupid and shallow after everything that's happened is very unrealistic

[quote]But I don't think she lacks morals, rather she is timid and cannot always stand up for what she is taught is right[/quote]

She doesn't seem to feel the slightest bit sorry for Mycah's death, and wouldn't have felt bad for Nymeria's.

[quote]There are still other ways she is similar to her family, her idealism and romanticism for example[/quote]

Starks are neither of those. Thye are altruistic, something Sansa definitely is not, and they are not romantic at all. Starks, actually, are very tough and harsh

[quote]Sam Tarly is raised by one of the most masculinely coded fathers we see in the series, in a thoroughly martial society, and he is cowardly and bookish.[/quote]

That's because, from the beginning, he didn't fit the physical requirement for it. If he had been good at fighting and hunting, he wouldn't have been bookish. Sansa doens't lack any particular thing for being capable and independent but a personality

[quote]Sansa is merely a different person, one whose intrinsic qualities interacts with her socialization in a particular way[/quote]

Yes, a way that makes her a dead weight and a nuisance to everyone around

[quote]but Tommen is not strong and Joffrey is not kind.[/quote]

Tommen is SEVEN. He's not anything. We don't know how he'll turn up
Also,Joffrey is quite clearly a sociopath; he has a mental illness, probably for the incest

[quote]Margaery is likely quite clever, yes, but she has never showed sign of rebellion. She seems to do what she is told and play her part (it happens that she doesn't mind, though). None of the ladies associated with the deeper south seem to object to the lifestyle of ladies fair and their handsome knights either[/quote]

But Marg is not stuck up or scornful of the poor or ugly. And she's not selfish in the least

[quote]Selyse is not nice either, she is hard but she doesn't come across as an independent thinker, nor is she very morally strong (she is easy prey for R'hllor), nor does she really do much for herself. She's bitter, I don't think that has much to do with feminist ideals of a healthy human being. And I have the feeling that if a genie suddenly granted Selyse beauty, she would be quite vain about it[/quote]

You know, I think you're right about this woman.

[quote]Sansa is beautiful, she did not ask to be born that way but she is it, and moreover I concede it is important to her[/quote]

Yes, and she equates beauty with goodness EVEN after eveyrthing that's happened. Also, she feels superior to others becasue of it
Neither Margaery nor Asha or Arianne come across as this.

[quote]It's the society's standards that say that women are valuable only so long as they are sexually attractive, and she is under that pressure too.[/quote]

But not only because of that. Women are trained to manage castles and accounts, they are employed as negotiators and I bet good parenting skills are also appreciated. Sansa would fail at all these things badly.

[VorianGR]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 15.59']Then why does no other westerosi woman act like her?[/quote]

Most act like her. They are just not POV's


[quote]Not really. They were old-fashoned stories, but in medieval times, there were warrior women and very cunnig political women. Also, Westeros is most certainly not real medieval society, because all of their women are strong and have power (except for Sansa, that is)[/quote]

Most Westerosi women are certainly not strong or in power.
Catelyn has some power only because Robb is kind and respects her but when she gets too over her head he immediately sends her away and she can't do anything.
Cersei's power was extinguished the moment Tywin appeared in court and when he died all the males tried to make her step down. Tommen would do exactly that later, if she hadn't ruined everything anyway.
Lysa had power only cause her son was young and still her lords were uneasy. Once Sweetrobin matured she would be nothing once more.
etc. etc.


[quote]Not after all she's been through. The fact that she remains stupid and shallow after everything that's happened is very unrealistic[/quote]

Not everyone can be smart and she is not that shallow anymore. I appreciated her chapters even though I hated her in AGoT and never seemed unrealistic. She is what a normal girl (without exceptionally fierce or rebellious character) would be raised like that.
Modern women have to thank their upbringing for being so independent and energetic but still many have similar attitudes to Sansa who was raised to be a good wife and no more.

[quote]But Marg is not stuck up or scornful of the poor or ugly. And she's not selfish in the least[/quote]

How do you know? We haven't seen her thought just what Cersei and Sansa think of her.





[quote]But not only because of that. Women are trained to manage castles and accounts, they are employed as negotiators and I bet good parenting skills are also appreciated. Sansa would fail at all these things badly.[/quote]

Where did you read that? From the books, what women are trained to do is kneeting, songs and some house managing no more. We have not seen much good parenting in the books....and Catelyn is somewhat different than the average lady since she was her father's heir for some time and quite smart with a husband that respected her opinion and passed this to his sons. That's why she was sent as negotiator.

[SkyPirate]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 14.59']Not really. They were old-fashoned stories, but in medieval times, there were warrior women and very cunnig political women. Also, Westeros is most certainly not real medieval society, because all of their women are strong and have power (except for Sansa, that is)[/quote]

Somebody tell Eleanor of Aquitaine! Okay, I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Women have never been treated as the equals of men, but there have been quite some women with power (even before the middle ages). And a woman in Westeros, unless she inherits some great estate, has to get power either through manipulating men or being important to them (Cat is Robb's mother. She's good to him. I hardly think Robb would've given her influence if she were a completely stupid harpy.)
Sansa, until now, has never been in this sort of position. Joffrey is beyond manipulation and she's seperated from her family. She's near Littlefinger now, so you never know, she might try to manipulate him (learning from the master).

[quote]Not after all she's been through. The fact that she remains stupid and shallow after everything that's happened is very unrealistic[/quote]

That's your opinion. Nobody's denying that she was rather silly and somewhat shallow in the beginning (and I do think it's a result of her upbringing). I think she's changed and she's going to change even more.


[quote]Starks are neither of those. Thye are altruistic, something Sansa definitely is not, and they are not romantic at all. Starks, actually, are very tough and harsh[/quote]
I do think the Starks are romantic. Look at Ned, he's the one telling his children stories. And he's the one who thinks Robert might change into a better king (and his fever dreams have something wistful and tragic about them, how he mourns Robert's death). And Bran's dearest dream was to become a great knight. Robb marries Jeyne (against all common sense) because doing otherwise would be sullying her honour. Even Arya isn't harsh, at least not in the beginning, I remember quite some times where she cries and her defiance of the feudal system isn't exactly common sense.


[quote]That's because, from the beginning, he didn't fit the physical requirement for it. If he had been good at fighting and hunting, he wouldn't have been bookish. Sansa doens't lack any particular thing for being capable and independent but a personality[/quote]
Look, if this were true, Rhaegar wouldn't have been bookish. Which he was. Sam just doesn't like fighting. Randyll tries to battle this but makes it worse in the end.


[quote]Tommen is SEVEN. He's not anything. We don't know how he'll turn up
Also, Joffrey is quite clearly a sociopath; he has a mental illness, probably for the incest[/quote]
Sansa starts the books as ELEVEN. You know eleven year olds? They're still children, and still have to develop. I agree that Joffrey is a sociopath but this is as much a result of his shitty upbringing.

[quote]But Marg is not stuck up or scornful of the poor or ugly. And she's not selfish in the least[/quote]
I love Margaery. But I still have to say that we don't know that. We haven't been in her head and we don't really know her thoughts. The Tyrells are tricky people who know how to use PR and having a good image. Margaery seems like an okay lass but her city trips are obviously a smart ploy to charm the common people.


[quote]Yes, and she equates beauty with goodness EVEN after eveyrthing that's happened. Also, she feels superior to others becasue of it.[/quote]
Perhaps she did in the beginning, but we see that changing. We see her budding attraction to the Hound (half burnt face) and we also see how she saves Ser Dontos (a fat ugly drunk). We see how she like Lothor Brune (who is plain) and how she dislikes Lyn Corbray (who is handsome). And this sense of superiority is hardly there when she thinks of Jon Snow and how she'd like to see him again.

[quote]But not only because of that. Women are trained to manage castles and accounts, they are employed as negotiators and I bet good parenting skills are also appreciated. Sansa would fail at all these things badly.[/quote]
Because she's a kid and hasn't been trained in these skills? She seems to manage the Eyrie pretty deftly. Littlefinger agrees with me :P

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Then why does no other westerosi woman act like her?[/quote]
There is no reason to assume this. I doubt that many are [i]as[/i] dreamy as her, to the point where stress would make them develop the memory rewriting habit she's developing, but that's a far cry from her being singular.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Not really. They were old-fashoned stories, but in medieval times, [b]there were warrior women and very cunnig political women.[/b] Also, Westeros is most certainly not real medieval society, because all of their women are strong and have power (except for Sansa, that is)[/quote]
Warrior women were not the norm though, nor was it that every smart woman had the opportunity to shake up politics even from behind the throne. And Westeros is most certainly modeled to a significant, if not thorough, extent on medieval society. The women who do have power to speak of have it in very limited ways. Cersei's regency would've only lasted 'til Joff hit 16, she caught a break (so to speak) when he died and the king became nine -- before the regency was taken away from her, that is. Lysa is similarly lucky that her husband is dead and her son is a small boy. Catelyn's entire plot is pervaded with powerlessness, in AGOT her authority is dependent on Ned letting her have it, and once Robb replaces Ned all she can do is appeal to reason, she has no leverage at all. Maege is in charge only because her brother joined the Nights Watch and Jorah fucked up. Donella Hornwood only even matters because her husband died, and she's still a pawn. Anya Waynwood is the [i]only[/i] woman among the Lords Declarant of the Vale. I don't see how Roslin Frey, Jeyne Westerling, or Beth Cassel have any kind of power, nor do they seem particularly willful. Hell, even Dany is "lucky" that her older brothers died and that she happened to be gifted with dragons.

Martin arranged enough situations for us to have enough women with enough power, because women have been gaining power throughout history, but he in no way made it impossible to accommodate someone like Sansa.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Not after all she's been through. The fact that she remains stupid and shallow after everything that's happened is very unrealistic[/quote]
She isn't as stupid as she started out as, though. But she hasn't repented about the actions that involve Arya, which I am thinking is all that matters to you. If that's your beef then fair enough, but I think it's untrue that she hasn't changed. Maybe not enough or in the right ways for you to care, but she has changed. And I find her learning curve really realistic, certain young characters who develop by leaps and bounds actually seem far less real to me.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']She doesn't seem to feel the slightest bit sorry for Mycah's death, and wouldn't have felt bad for Nymeria's.[/quote]
Right, I think it's fair to say your biggest issue seem to be her actions that involve Arya.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Starks are neither of those. Thye are altruistic, something Sansa definitely is not, and they are not romantic at all. Starks, actually, are very tough and harsh[/quote]
:stunned: Starks are not idealistic? Jon is only [i]just[/i] escaping from the Honor Before Reason business that got his father and brother [i]killed[/i].

And you'll have a hard time convincing me Lyanna Stark didn't have something of a romantic nature. She may get off the hook as far as modern definitions of Cool are concerned since she was also a tomboy, but that's how Martin idealized her, to have both those sides there.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']That's because, from the beginning, he didn't fit the physical requirement for it. If he had been good at fighting and hunting, he wouldn't have been bookish. Sansa doens't lack any particular thing for being capable and independent but a personality[/quote]
You may have a point here. I still don't see what is unrealistic about a person being different from their family, it happens plenty. I'm also confused if you're talking about being a strong female (capable, independent, assertive) or being [i]nice[/i]. Granted, I happen to think compassion is a part of personal integrity, but certainly not all the women who seem to pass your test can be said to have that.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Tommen is SEVEN. He's not anything. We don't know how he'll turn up[/quote]
Tommen is nine, same age as Arya started out as. Old enough to have a personality?

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']But Marg is not stuck up or scornful of the poor or ugly. And she's not selfish in the least[/quote]
If Sansa scorned the poor I hardly think she would have convinced Joffrey to give the wailing mother in the street some money. Nor do I find her convincing Joffrey to save Dontos' life -- once he had already started having her beaten -- an act of selfishness.

And we hardly know much about Margaery, except to say that the Tyrells can put on a good act.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']Yes, and she equates beauty with goodness EVEN after eveyrthing that's happened. Also, she feels superior to others becasue of it[/quote]
She does not go around comparing her beauty to everyone she meets. She is also seeing through things, slowly yes, but its happening. I hardly think she'd call Cersei a good person after AGOT.

[quote name='Margaery' post='1597355' date='Nov 22 2008, 08.59']But not only because of that. Women are trained to manage castles and accounts, they are employed as negotiators and I bet good parenting skills are also appreciated. Sansa would fail at all these things badly.[/quote]
A handful of women maybe are employed as negotiators. Do we see this at all besides Catelyn? Her training, while not the most empowered like Arianne (because of Dornish law) or Asha (because of the happenstance that her brothers were all unsuitable), is not necessarily the default situation either. The only thing we know about Sansa that would count against her as far as management goes is that she's bad at sums. Other than that, she seems to be handling the running of the household in AFFC quite well, and incidentally she's also a pretty good caretaker for Sweetrobin.



If all women were strong and able to be fully self actualized despite a society that denies them equal standing, why on earth did those silly feminists ever start trying to initiate social change anyway? If women can and should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and just get over it, why bother fussing? The extent of Sansa's docility serves as an indictment against her socialization. It is true in addition that she likely has a rather pliant nature, but that again hardly makes her unrealistic. Just as I'm confused about if your issue is that she's not strong or not nice, I'm finding it hard to understand if your problem is that she's unrealistic or that she's unlikable.

[Margaery]

[quote]Most act like her. They are just not POV's[/quote]

Assuming that is a bit of a stretch, if every other lead female doesn't

[quote]Catelyn has some power only because Robb is kind and respects her but when she gets too over her head he immediately sends her away and she can't do anything.[/quote]

More, like, when she tells him truths he doesn't want to hear. But this is because Robb is king, not because he is a lord

[quote]Cersei's power was extinguished the moment Tywin appeared in court and when he died all the males tried to make her step down[/quote]

They didn't try so hard. I mean, her allies (Cersei's) were pratically extinguished and Cersei is not too bright...what could've possibly gone wrong?

[quote]Tommen would do exactly that later, if she hadn't ruined everything anyway.[/quote]

What are you saying? Please, Tommen is seven. He doesn't try to get power over women, he's just angry that his mommy never likes the poeple he does (Margaery, Loras)

[quote]Lysa had power only cause her son was young and still her lords were uneasy. Once Sweetrobin matured she would be nothing once more.[/quote]

First, the fact that they let their mothers act as regents, and not some other male lord, is something. Second, women have a lot of power through their influence over their offspring

[quote]Not everyone can be smart and she is not that shallow anymore[/quote]

Read Alayne's last chapter in AFFC. She wondering if Papa Petyr will be down and if he'll have brought her beautiful dresses, the thing she likes the most in the world. Meanwhile, there's a war going on, and people dying of hunger. If that isn't being shallow, I don't know what is

[quote]Modern women have to thank their upbringing for being so independent and energetic but still many have similar attitudes to Sansa who was raised to be a good wife and no more[/quote]

Arya was, too, and she isn't like this. I know it's because she has a rebellious nature, but that's PRECISELY what I don't like about Sansa, the fact that she doesn't have one

[quote]How do you know? We haven't seen her thought just what Cersei and Sansa think of her.[/quote]

She was nice to Sansa when she had been disgraceful, she was angry when her brother was hurt, she told Cersei off, she brings food to the poor...

[quote]Where did you read that? From the books, what women are trained to do is kneeting, songs and some house managing no more[/quote]

Not "some" house managing, it was an important part of their education, as was learning to ride, for example (and of course, Sansa sucked at both, the most pragmatical things they have learned). Catelyn was supposed to manage the accounts after the royal visit, so...

[quote]We have not seen much good parenting in the books....and Catelyn is somewhat different than the average lady since she was her father's heir for some time and quite smart with a husband that respected her opinion and passed this to his sons. That's why she was sent as negotiator.[/quote]

Well, Sansa is not Ned's heir, but she's the oldest of his daughters, and he's also someone who listens and respects their opinions.

[quote]Somebody tell Eleanor of Aquitaine! Okay, I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Women have never been treated as the equals of men, but there have been quite some women with power (even before the middle ages).[/quote]

Not "even", specially. Medieval society, specially Christianism, was responsible for negating many things to women that they had before Christianism began to spread

[quote]She's near Littlefinger now, so you never know, she might try to manipulate him (learning from the master).[/quote]

We've been inside her mind. She thinks Papa Petyr is cool, trusts him, and likes the dresses he buys her
(I think I'm gonna vomit)

[quote]Nobody's denying that she was rather silly and somewhat shallow in the beginning (and I do think it's a result of her upbringing).[/quote]

Which was the same as Robb's, Bran's and Arya's. None of them were like her

[quote]I think she's changed and she's going to change even more.[/quote]

Show me she's learnt form her mistakes. Show me how she's nice to an ugly, poor or not-noble person. Show me how she cares there are people dying of hunger. Show me she doesn't still keep trusting people she KNOWS are not trustworhty. Show me she's horrified she killed Mycah.

[quote]I do think the Starks are romantic. Look at Ned, he's the one telling his children stories[/quote]

Yeah, because every single granma in the world is romantic because they do this. Right

[quote]And he's the one who thinks Robert might change into a better king (and his fever dreams have something wistful and tragic about them, how he mourns Robert's death).[/quote]

This just means he likes to see the good in people and that he's a good friend. Also, let me point that Sansa is as stupid as Ned was but Ned was selfless in his stupidity

[quote]And Bran's dearest dream was to become a great knight[/quote]

Every highborn little kid's dream, in Westeros. Big deal

[quote]Robb marries Jeyne (against all common sense) because doing otherwise would be sullying her honour[/quote]

This is not romantic. This is honourable (stupidly honourable). If he had married her because of love, then THAT would be romantic

[quote]Look, if this were true, Rhaegar wouldn't have been bookish[/quote]

Yes, because Rhaegar was being educated by his father. Right. He WAS the PRINCE, he could do as he pleased, and his father was a nutcase who didn't pressure him at all (I doubt he even concerned himself with him)

[Margaery]

[quote]Sansa starts the books as ELEVEN. You know eleven year olds? They're still children, and still have to develop[/quote]

No. They are pre-teens. Arya is now 11 and she isn't like Sansa. Edric Dayne is 12. Shireen too. None of them are as shallow, idiotic or stuck-up as Sansa is
(still is, at 14)

[quote]I agree that Joffrey is a sociopath but this is as much a result of his shitty upbringing.[/quote]

Not true. Look at Tommen and Myrcella. They are nice kids

[quote]I love Margaery. But I still have to say that we don't know that. We haven't been in her head and we don't really know her thoughts. The Tyrells are tricky people who know how to use PR and having a good image. Margaery seems like an okay lass but her city trips are obviously a smart ploy to charm the common people.[/quote]

But this is politics, even in our days. Or do you seriously think politicians care about us folk? No. But the good ones are the ones that give us what we want to get our favour.

[quote]Perhaps she did in the beginning, but we see that changing. We see her budding attraction to the Hound (half burnt face) and we also see how she saves Ser Dontos (a fat ugly drunk). We see how she like Lothor Brune (who is plain) and how she dislikes Lyn Corbray (who is handsome)[/quote]

Is Lyn Corbray described as handsome? Ô.o Evidence, please
With the Hound, she has some serious stockholm syndrome going on. And let's see...she still sighs dreamily at Loras even after all that happened to her in SoS. She treats Tyrion like shit. But she trusts Littlefinger, whom she knows is not to be trusted. I can only look at them and see that Tyrion is ugly, while Petyr is not. And do the math

[quote]And this sense of superiority is hardly there when she thinks of Jon Snow and how she'd like to see him again[/quote]

If I remember it correctly, she thinks that she understands Jon a bit better now that she has to pretend she's a bastard. There's a lot of superiority and superior pity in there. Also, if she has to experience things to be compasisonate to others, I hope she gets maimed, then she'll understand Tyrion better
And then, she thinks that she'd like to see any of her brothers, EVEN her half-brother Jon. Again with the superiority

[quote]Because she's a kid and hasn't been trained in these skills? She seems to manage the Eyrie pretty deftly. Littlefinger agrees with me[/quote]

First, they were trained. Arya thinks how she fails utterly every boring, stupid thing they make them do,like knitting, but that Sansa is incredibly dumb at the managing things
Second, she doesn't manage The Eyrie at all. Everything's done for her. She just gets the sense that she does.
Third, Littlefinger only thinks she's cute and wants to fuck her. Period

[quote]There is no reason to assume this. I doubt that many are as dreamy as her, to the point where stress would make them develop the memory rewriting habit she's developing, but that's a far cry from her being singular.[/quote]

Tell me other examples, please, apart form Jeyne Poole

[quote]Cersei's regency would've only lasted 'til Joff hit 16, she caught a break (so to speak) when he died and the king became nine -- before the regency was taken away from her, that is. Lysa is similarly lucky that her husband is dead and her son is a small boy. Catelyn's entire plot is pervaded with powerlessness, in AGOT her authority is dependent on Ned letting her have it, and once Robb replaces Ned all she can do is appeal to reason, she has no leverage at all. Maege is in charge only because her brother joined the Nights Watch and Jorah fucked up. Donella Hornwood only even matters because her husband died, and she's still a pawn. Anya Waynwood is the only woman among the Lords Declarant of the Vale.[/quote]

I agree, but the fact that they let women be regents in every case is something strange, that didn't happen so much in the Middle Ages.

[quote]I don't see how Roslin Frey, Jeyne Westerling, or Beth Cassel have any kind of power, nor do they seem particularly willful[/quote]

Walder Frey is another matter entirely, since his house is completely fucked up by the fact that he's still alive and has had so many children. Jeyne Westerling didn't know about her family's plot, but after the Red Wedding, we see she's rebelling against her family. We don't see enough of Beth Cassel to know what she's like; I think the scene where she features most, she's being held by a noose and threatened to hung

[quote]Maybe not enough or in the right ways for you to care, but she has changed[/quote]

Give me examples

[quote]And I find her learning curve really realistic, certain young characters who develop by leaps and bounds actually seem far less real to me.[/quote]

I don't know who you are refering to, but in war situations or tough lives, children develop at an incredible rate

[quote]And you'll have a hard time convincing me Lyanna Stark didn't have something of a romantic nature[/quote]

IF the R+L thing is true, then fair enough. She seemed to be as irresponsible as Sansa is, making a whole continent go to war over a boyfriend (though I can understand her anger at being traded like a card)

[quote]I'm also confused if you're talking about being a strong female (capable, independent, assertive) or being nice.[/quote]

I'm talking about all of them

[quote]Tommen is nine, same age as Arya started out as. Old enough to have a personality?[/quote]

Tommen, just checked, is eight. And he HAS a personality, but we haven't seen him enough to know if he's cool, tough or capable. He's certainly sweet, though. And seeing Cersei's parenting, the fact that he managed to stand up to her for some time demanding Loras remain his instructor, is something. His shy and meek nature it's implied that derives from Joffrey abuse

[quote]If Sansa scorned the poor I hardly think she would have convinced Joffrey to give the wailing mother in the street some money[/quote]

It's the whole superiority thing. "Give the poor, deagraded woman some money, so we can feel better about being rich"

[quote]Nor do I find her convincing Joffrey to save Dontos' life -- once he had already started having her beaten -- an act of selfishness[/quote]

That's actually the only selfless thing she's done in the series. The ONE and only

[quote]And we hardly know much about Margaery, except to say that the Tyrells can put on a good act.[/quote]

I have a question about this, and it's general...[u]where do you all people get this that the Tyrells are such good actors and cunning bastards?[/u] Olenna isn't exactly acting at any time, she's every bit as impolite as she feels like beingXD. Garlan is sincerely nice, even going so far as to being nice to Tyrion when everyone else isn't. Loras is too hot-headed to be cunning. Willas befriended the man that maimed him, even against his family's wishes. And Mace is clearly as he presents himself. I dont get this at all

[quote]I hardly think she'd call Cersei a good person after AGOT.[/quote]

But she still warms up to Margaery in no time, she stills sighs dreamily after Loras, and she treats Tyrion badly and Littlefinger good

[quote]Other than that, she seems to be handling the running of the household in AFFC quite well, and incidentally she's also a pretty good caretaker for Sweetrobin.[/quote]

Please, she doesn't do anything. And she's not a good caretaker at all, the kid just follows her around, she doesn't actively take care of him but when she absolutely has to to avoid trouble

[quote]It is true in addition that she likely has a rather pliant nature, but that again hardly makes her unrealistic. Just as I'm confused about if your issue is that she's not strong or not nice, I'm finding it hard to understand if your problem is that she's unrealistic or that she's unlikable[/quote]

I think she's unrealistic when compared to her siblings (the ones who grew up with her) and to other westerosi women we know. And I find her thoroughly unpleasant as well

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Is Lyn Corbray described as handsome? Ô.o Evidence, please[/quote]
Alayne thinks, "Lyn Corbray is handsome, for an older man, but I do not like the way he smiles."
[quote]She treats Tyrion like shit. But she trusts Littlefinger, whom she knows is not to be trusted.[/quote]
No, she treats Tyrion as well as she can under the circumstances, except for one fit of pique at the wedding (at which point she has no reason to think Tyrion will be any improvement on Joff). And she trusts Littlefinger only if your definition of "trust" includes "would have fled him if she had anywhere to flee [i]to[/i]."
[quote]"Give the poor, deagraded woman some money, so we can feel better about being rich"[/quote]
Proof plzthx.