Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic!

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Stratonice' post='1587622' date='Nov 13 2008, 11.01']I would argue that she was never really in love with Joffrey, the person. Sansa is really a very idealistic and romantic spirit and she simply convinced herself that she felt what the songs and stories had taught her a young girl betrothed to a royal prince should feel. It is the ideal fairy tale prince from the songs she really has a crush on. She just attach Joff's face to the fantasy because he is the one she's been told she's going to marry. (Had her betrothed been an even remotely decent person, this would not necessarily have been a bad way for her to deal with an arranged marriage.)[/quote]
I say that she's been stupid to see in Joffrey this "ideal prince". She hasn't understood that Joffrey wasn't this "prince charming", that he neither was a decent person, when she should have seen this. This behaviour was very stupid. I never said that it was an [i]unforgivable[/i] mistake and that Sansa should be burned alive. Simply: let's admit that she was really stupid in that situation.
That's all.

[quote]It's not so much that Ned is sending her away from Joffrey, she later objects to. It's the fact that he completely destroys the fantasy and the self image that came with it. And he does so without giving her any explanation for it.[/quote]
He told her that she would marry another "good lord". But no, she wanted [i]Joffrey[/i].
I also agree that Ned should have explained her better all the things. But it doesn't mean that she hasn't been very stupid herself.

[quote]About her testimony, btw, I'm really having a hard time understanding how anyone can expect an 11 year old girl in feudal society to call the crown prince a liar in front of the full court. Most adults wouldn't have. Especially when we know for a fact that Robert, the King, already knew that was the case and didn't particularly care about it. At least not enough to act accordingly. A lot of people deserve a lot of blame for what happened, but Sansa saying she doesn't remember what happened when faced with that situation is very far down that list. Robert takes most of the blame from me in this case, followed by Cersei and Joffrey.[/quote]
I don't blame her simply because she didn't testify. The problem is that she didn't testify [i]because she didn't want to bother Joffrey[/i]. If she hadn't been still in love with him, it would have been a different question.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1587764' date='Nov 13 2008, 19.54']He told her that she would marry another "good lord". But no, she wanted [i]Joffrey[/i].[/quote]She wanted [i]Prince Charming[/i], Joffrey as a person doesn't have anything to do with Sansa's feelings, she was in love with the image she had of what a prince should be, and projected herself into a fairy tale.

She just had a BSOD when Ned asked her to tell what happened with Nymeria because this situation could not fit in her dream world, there are no songs where the princess has to hurt either Prince Charming or her loved ones.

I wouldn't say it was stupidity as much as it was naivete and stubborness. I mean, it's not that she doesn't understand things, it's that she does not want to believe in them. Either way, yes her actions were not well thought out with both feet firmly in reality, and are infuriating, but they also make Sansa pitiable at the same time... she didn't know anything, and each time she tries believing the world has any good in it like in the songs, she gets some sort of disproportionate punishment for it.

After all, if someone told you that his teen daughter had refused to take sides in a different between her boyfriend and her sister, or that she had one day disobeyed her father when he tried to separate her from said boyfriend, would you even bat an eye?

[Stratonice]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1587764' date='Nov 13 2008, 19.54']I say that she's been stupid to see in Joffrey this "ideal prince". She hasn't understood that Joffrey wasn't this "prince charming", that he neither was a decent person, when she should have seen this. This behaviour was very stupid. I never said that it was an [i]unforgivable[/i] mistake and that Sansa should be burned alive. Simply: let's admit that she was really stupid in that situation.
That's all.[/quote]

No, you're missing my point. It's not that Joffrey reminds her of the prince she imagines, he has nothing to do with it. Once she's told that she is to marry him she attach his face to the ideal prince she was already fantasizing about. Had she instead been told that she was to marry someone else, that's the face that would have been attached to the fantasy. The contents of the fantasy wouldn't really have changed other than in details. Note how she in those early days constantly refer to him as "her prince" rather than by name and compare that to how she thinks of him after Ned's execution when she's beginning to realize that "life is not a song".

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1587764' date='Nov 13 2008, 19.54']He told her that she would marry another "good lord". But no, she wanted [i]Joffrey[/i].
I also agree that Ned should have explained her better all the things. But it doesn't mean that she hasn't been very stupid herself.[/quote]

At that time Joffreys name, face and title was already firmly a part of the fantasy and she had already built up this whole self image of the Queen she would become. So when Ned told her the betrothal was off he was destroying the entire fantasy and the image Sansa had built of herself and her future. Some other lord wouldn't fit the fantasy anymore. Marrying some other lord wouldn't make Sansa the gracious Queen she was picturing her future as. It's not very rational but I wouldn't exactly say it was stupid either. Naïve is a better word.

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1587764' date='Nov 13 2008, 19.54']I don't blame her simply because she didn't testify. The problem is that she didn't testify [i]because she didn't want to bother Joffrey[/i]. If she hadn't been still in love with him, it would have been a different question.[/quote]

Could you please provide a quote for that. I don't remember her ever thinking that she didn't say what happened because she didn't want to bother Joffrey. In fact I'm pretty sure that if the hearing had been done more privately (with only the kids and the parents present) she would have told them what happened. Can't be proven or disproven of course, but I definitely got the impression that it was the fact that she would be calling Joffrey a liar [i]in front of all those people[/i] that made her hesitate and say she didn't remember what happened. Besides, the heroines of the songs are never faced with situations like this. So I don't think "bothering Joffrey" had much to do with it.

[Bolton Bastard]

[quote name='Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rah' post='1587133' date='Nov 12 2008, 19.10']*sigh* That was one pleasurable read. Thank you my friends. hehe I'm glad to see everyone is on the same page. The haters were there, but their reasons were lame... Like for seriously! Undeveloped character?! Friends, we need to stop sniffing the glue about an hour before GRRM readings kk? That way your head is clear and un-muddled for the possible Sansa chapters.

Sansa was the most irritating character for me to read in AGoT, partially because Arya was the most enjoyable and I felt, as a Arya devotee, that Sansa was a real bitch!... but to say her character at the end of these four books is undeveloped is ridiculous... yes it is a more subtle development, but to me that just fits her character... everything in time... we have moved passed "complete idiocy" to "innocent naivety" and now we are in "subtle cynicism" and I am loving every minute of it. She has shown great character development... and to people who say otherwise I would say - Tyrion has been plotting and scheming since AGoT, and Arya has been going about stabbing people also since AGoT. I love both these characters, but in a way their way of thinking remains the same although other things change.... but for Sansa her whole way of thinking is changing, she is changing dramatically and I enjoys it.

All that was just babbling though the true argument, that has been resounding throughout this thread, was, is and always will be that Sansa is SUPER-AWESOME-FANTASTIC . Fact not fiction. For real real. Not for play play.

PS: Sarah Palin told me God supports me on this one, if nothing else.[/quote]

hmm, never sniffed glue before. Probably sill wouldn't like Sansa while on it though.

As for Arya's character development she changed dramatically from well a mildly (really) bitchy girl who acts solely out of a rebellious nature. To a supreme self preservationist after her fathers death. She still has some ties to her old bitchy behavior that is what drags onto Hot Pie and Gendry with her. However the largest change seen in her is from open rebelliousness and solitude to desire of a pack. In aGoT her actions seemed to drive toward wanting complete solitude even going so far as to deny going to watching people fight in a tournament after previously mentioning how much she enjoys watching fights. This changes after she finally engages in solitude from her family. She then becomes fairly stagnant admittedly and her chapters are carried by outside forces such as Gregor's brutality, Sandor, the BwB. Changed only momentarily when she understands that she has been wasting her wishes on her direct opposition instead of helping the war effort. Her next major change is when she gets involved with the FM, which shows her attempting to control her own brat like personality.
Tyrion's character development becomes more along the lines of the sense of paranoia that seems to be creeping up on him, as well as the loss of morality he goes through as he increases and decreases in political power. From rather a decent human being to one who kills minstrels, whores, and his own family. His final realization that his final family tie is in fact a lie showed an interesting destruction of a person.
Your argument against these characters focused more on their actions instead of their personal changes. I will admit I have done the same thing, as Sansa has done nothing and continues to do nothing. However, I do enjoy Sansa chapters for Joff, Tyrion (when he shows up), and Petyr.
Having (quickly) reread the Sansa chapters I found her main character changes involved with Ser Dontos. Even this however failed to make many changes from her character. The major differences I could find was that her incessant story book mentality had the habit of jumping from one person to another until Dontos edged around breaking the mold. But even to initially go with Dontos plans she had to first attach him onto a preconceived storybook concept.

And a mild point to a wildling. I think that Cersei honestly believed her sons' story was true about the wolf attacking, just everyone else in the room didn't.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1588017' date='Nov 13 2008, 21.32']She wanted [i]Prince Charming[/i], Joffrey as a person doesn't have anything to do with Sansa's feelings, she was in love with the image she had of what a prince should be, and projected herself into a fairy tale.

She just had a BSOD when Ned asked her to tell what happened with Nymeria because this situation could not fit in her dream world, there are no songs where the princess has to hurt either Prince Charming or her loved ones.[/quote]
Yes. And all this was [i]stupid[/i].

[quote]I wouldn't say it was stupidity as much as it was naivete and stubborness. I mean, it's not that she doesn't understand things, it's that she does not want to believe in them. Either way, yes her actions were not well thought out with both feet firmly in reality, and are infuriating, but they also make Sansa pitiable at the same time... she didn't know anything, and each time she tries believing the world has any good in it like in the songs, she gets some sort of disproportionate punishment for it.[/quote]
And I call all this [i]stupidity[/i]. Naivety sometimes becomes a form of stupidity. Stubborness too. Impulsivity too. Excessive kindness too... and many other traits...
Anyway... you can call it as you want. The important is that the sense of my argument is clear :)

[quote]After all, if someone told you that his teen daughter had refused to take sides in a different between her boyfriend and her sister, or that she had one day disobeyed her father when he tried to separate her from said boyfriend, would you even bat an eye?[/quote]
It depends from the situation. If the boyfriend was like Joffrey, yes, I would think that the girl is behaving very stupidly. It doesn't necessary mean that [i]the girl is a stupid person[/i], but [i]her behaviour[/i] is stupid. All the people sometimes do stupid things. Sansa was stupid in that situation!
Arya sometimes has been stupid. Sansa sometimes has been stupid. All the characters sometimes have been stupid. Where is the problem?

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Stratonice' post='1588053' date='Nov 13 2008, 21.58']No, you're missing my point. It's not that Joffrey reminds her of the prince she imagines, he has nothing to do with it. Once she's told that she is to marry him she attach his face to the ideal prince she was already fantasizing about. Had she instead been told that she was to marry someone else, that's the face that would have been attached to the fantasy. The contents of the fantasy wouldn't really have changed other than in details. Note how she in those early days constantly refer to him as "her prince" rather than by name and compare that to how she thinks of him after Ned's execution when she's beginning to realize that "life is not a song".
(..)
At that time Joffreys name, face and title was already firmly a part of the fantasy and she had already built up this whole self image of the Queen she would become. So when Ned told her the betrothal was off he was destroying the entire fantasy and the image Sansa had built of herself and her future. Some other lord wouldn't fit the fantasy anymore. Marrying some other lord wouldn't make Sansa the gracious Queen she was picturing her future as. It's not very rational but I wouldn't exactly say it was stupid either. Naïve is a better word.[/quote]
And I assert that all this is very stupid.
I consider this kind of naivety a form of stupidity.
Moreover, I honestly can't empathize very much with her in that situation. Personally, I can empathize much more with Arya, when she did some stupid things. I understand her more. But it's a matter of personal feelings and sympathy.
All right?

[quote]Could you please provide a quote for that. I don't remember her ever thinking that she didn't say what happened because she didn't want to bother Joffrey. In fact I'm pretty sure that if the hearing had been done more privately (with only the kids and the parents present) she would have told them what happened. Can't be proven or disproven of course, but I definitely got the impression that it was the fact that she would be calling Joffrey a liar [i]in front of all those people[/i] that made her hesitate and say she didn't remember what happened. Besides, the heroines of the songs are never faced with situations like this. So I don't think "bothering Joffrey" had much to do with it.[/quote]
There isn't a quote because it wasn't a PoV of hers. We can't read what she [i]was thinking[/i]. I've already answered about this to A wilding.
We know that she was "in love" (call it as you like...) with Joffrey 1)before the trident misadventure 2)immediately after the trident misadventure 3)in the next PoV. It's obvious that we can't read her feelings in Ned's PoV, but I think it's logical to assume that she was blindly in love with Joffrey in that moment too. So I conclude that she didn't want to bother him. My interpretation is different from yours. This is my impression.

[A wilding]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1587080' date='Nov 12 2008, 23.19']In her previous PoV she was in love with him, even after his behaviour to Mycah. She went on acting as a girl in love with her "dear prince".
In the next PoV she also was in love with him. And so she was in all the PdV until Ned’s beheading.
It's obvious that we can't read about her thoughts in Ned's PoV (during the process). It wasn't her PoV :P But I think is really [i]logical[/i] to assume this, unless we haven't the evidence of the contrary.
If you say that during the process Sansa wasn't in love with Joffrey only because we haven't evidences of that [i]in the chapter[/i], you can also say that Jon stopped to like Arya in the Tyrion's chapter at the Wall only because his attachment to his sister isn't written [i]there[/i]. Not very logical...[/quote]
Sorry have no time to make a full reply, but quickly, I am afraid that we are very far from having clear evidence that Sansa was in love with Joffrey (or rather, as has been pointed out, with the idea of Joffrey) during the trial.

Sansa's previous PoV ends with her little romance spoiled by the encounter with Mycah and Arya, and with Joffrey looking at her with nothing but the "vilest contempt".

Then at the trial Sansa is scared, and I for one consider it far more likely that she was scared of the prospect of testifying against the crown prince, her betrothed, than she was of her father and sister.

Sansa's next PoV is at the Hand's tourney. We are told that she and Joffrey have not exchanged a word since the trial, and that for a while she had thought she hated him. But the betrothal is still on, her father has given her no guidance, and we see her in that chapter telling herself it was not Joffrey's fault but Cersei's and Arya's, and stitching the romance back together

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1588216' date='Nov 13 2008, 23.44']Sorry have no time to make a full reply, but quickly, I am afraid that we are very far from having clear evidence that Sansa was in love with Joffrey (or rather, as has been pointed out, with the idea of Joffrey) during the trial.[/quote]
If to have an evidence you need to read her thoughts during the trial, it's clear that you will never have it. But any time we read about Sansa's feelings towards Joffrey, we see love. If we haven't the evidence of the contrary, I think it's [i]more logical[/i] to assume that she was in love with him during the process too!
When Sam meets Arya in Braavos, [i]in that chapter[/i] we don't have the evidence that she hates Cersei. What does it mean? Doesn't she hate Cersei anymore? Has she forgiven her? It's much more logical to assume that she still hates Cersei. There is no need to write this any time, especially in other character's PoVs.
You are free to assume the contrary. But it doesn't seem to me the most logical choice...

[quote]Sansa's previous PoV ends with her little romance spoiled by the encounter with Mycah and Arya, and with Joffrey looking at her with nothing but the "vilest contempt".[/quote]
And she talked to him in a gentle and loving way.

[quote]Then at the trial Sansa is scared, and I for one consider it far more likely that she was scared of the prospect of testifying against the crown prince, her betrothed, than she was of her father and sister.[/quote]
I don't agree. I see the situation in a different way.

[quote]Sansa's next PoV is at the Hand's tourney. We are told that she and Joffrey have not exchanged a word since the trial, and that for a while she had thought she hated him. But the betrothal is still on, her father has given her no guidance, and we see her in that chapter telling herself it was not Joffrey's fault but Cersei's and Arya's, and stitching the romance back together[/quote]
She hated him [i]for Lady[/i], so she hated him [i]after[/i] the trial. When she thought who was guilty, she was thinking about Lady's death.
When Lady died she was angry and she blamed even Joffrey. Then she decided not to blame him. [i]This was stupid[/i].
And she didn't stop blaming him because she felt forced to marry him. 1)The way she expressed her love for Joffrey was really fervid. And there is really no sign of a fear or of a feeling of constriction. 2)If she was really worried and afraid of the marrige, she could ask. There is really no reason for not making. It cost [i]nothing[/i]! She didn't ask and she neither thought about it, because she [i]wanted to marry him[/i]. She hated him for a while, but then she calmed down and her "beautiful dream" went on. I really don't think this was because of a feeling of constraint. 3) When Ned finally said her that she wouldn't have married Joffrey, she was [i]desperate[/i]. This clearly means that she [i]wanted[/i] to marry him, that she hadn't only accepted a "harsh reality".

Hmm... I'm repeating the same things 1000 times. Honestly... I'm a little tired :P Also because I'm not an English native speaker :lol:
Anyone is free to give his own interpretation. This is my point of view. It persuades me much more than yours, I've told you why.
I don't know if I'll answer again. Maybe if I see some new and challenging remarks.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1588176' date='Nov 13 2008, 23.17']And I assert that all this is very stupid.
I consider this kind of naivety a form of stupidity.
Moreover, I honestly can't empathize very much with her in that situation. Personally, I can empathize much more with Arya, when she did some stupid things. I understand her more. But it's a matter of personal feelings and sympathy.[/quote]Ah, gotcha, we just have different definition of stupidity.

Well, anyway, I don't think anyone said that what she did in Darry and afterwards was good, but I think it makes her changes all that more dramatic. Poor girl, to have her innocence totally raped, forced to become a cynic, a liar and an accessory to murder by circumstances, when she was at the start just your regular young airhead.

It is obvious GRRM made us purposefully empathise more with Arya in the beginning, using Sansa as a foil, but like with Jaime and Tyrion, if he had started telling his story from AFFC, the sympathetic one could have been Sansa.

To each his own, but at least it cannot be said that her character isn't well developed, understandable, or consistent.

ETA: Speaking of stupidity, as I understand it, you would call a deeply religious person stupid, right? They also believe in what a book tell them, or are eternal optimists about human nature, and that's in opposition with the reality they experience.

[A wilding]

Have now caught up.

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1588176' date='Nov 13 2008, 22.17']And I assert that all this is very stupid.
I consider this kind of naivety a form of stupidity.
Moreover, I honestly can't empathize very much with her in that situation. Personally, I can empathize much more with Arya, when she did some stupid things. I understand her more. But it's a matter of personal feelings and sympathy.
All right?[/quote]

I agree that it is very much a matter of personal feelings and empathy (possibly coloured by one's own life experiences, but that is another issue).

I think that I have one further point to make on the "stupidity" question though. I think that one of GRRM's strengths is that he is a realistic writer. He does not, as many fantasy writers seem to, plant characters with the attitudes of a 21st century democracy into a disneylandlike faux mediaeval world. Instead his characters have mindsets that match the brutal and unpleasant society that they live in.

In Westeros arranged marriages are the norm amongst the aristocracy. Girls are brought up to marry whomever their father or other guardian tells them to, and to love, honour and obey the man chosen for them. A RL girl in Sansa's position would of course not hesitate for a moment to form her own opinion of her betrothed and express disquiet to her father if she didn't like them (and of course a Western RL girl would bridle at the whole idea of a husband being chosen for her). But that is not how it works in Westeros, daughters expect no say. So to call Sansa stupid for doing her best to fall in love with the man her father chose for her is, I think, a little unfair. And not being able to adjust immediately when the whole thing is unexpectedly called off without explanation is at least understandable.

Personally, the main lesson I take from the whole mess is that arranged marriages in which the participants are given no say are a great evil.

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

To harp on factors of the first book as reasons against Sansa Super-Awesome-Fantasticty is rediculous... its that we could be grinding our teeth during that first book while reading her, tearing up while reading her in the next book and cheering her on in chapters from there... No one is saying her actions in AGOT were not stupid( or naive and immature if you tend towards a more appropriate wording) we are saying "Look where she is now, and my hasn't the ride turned out to be fun, in classic GRRM fashion".

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1588656' date='Nov 14 2008, 08.11']Well, anyway, I don't think anyone said that what she did in Darry and afterwards was good, but I think it makes her changes all that more dramatic. Poor girl, to have her innocence totally raped, forced to become a cynic, a liar and an accessory to murder by circumstances, when she was at the start just your regular young airhead...[/quote]
Yes, I agree.
Sansa is not among my favorite characters, I prefer Arya, Jon, Brienne and many others. But I've never said that I hate her, I don't even dislike her.

[quote]It is obvious GRRM made us purposefully empathise more with Arya in the beginning, using Sansa as a foil, but like with Jaime and Tyrion, if he had started telling his story from AFFC, the sympathetic one could have been Sansa.[/quote]
I like more Arya in general, because I like much more her kind of character and her kind of person. I constantly like her and empathise with her. From AGOT to AFFC :)

[quote]To each his own, but at least it cannot be said that her character isn't well developed, understandable, or consistent.[/quote]
In fact I've never stated this ;)

[quote]ETA: Speaking of stupidity, as I understand it, you would call a deeply religious person stupid, right? They also believe in what a book tell them, or are eternal optimists about human nature, and that's in opposition with the reality they experience.[/quote]
This is a very complicated theme. It's impossible to debate about this in few lines.
But I want to clarify a [i]general[/i] thing: when I say that a person behaves stupidly or thinks/says stupid things, I don't mean that [i]the person is stupid[/i]. Otherwise, intelligent people wouldn't exist. I mean that this person is stupid [i]in this moment[/i], or [i]in a sense[/i]. All the humans are [i]somehow[/i] stupid.
Blindly believing in the Bible is a stupid attitude, in my opinion. But this person might be very intelligent in a different way. There are a lot of forms of intelligence and of stupidity.

[quote]In Westeros arranged marriages are the norm amongst the aristocracy. Girls are brought up to marry whomever their father or other guardian tells them to, and to love, honour and obey the man chosen for them. A RL girl in Sansa's position would of course not hesitate for a moment to form her own opinion of her betrothed and express disquiet to her father if she didn't like them (and of course a Western RL girl would bridle at the whole idea of a husband being chosen for her). But that is not how it works in Westeros, daughters expect no say. So to call Sansa stupid for doing her best to fall in love with the man her father chose for her is, I think, a little unfair. And not being able to adjust immediately when the whole thing is unexpectedly called off without explanation is at least understandable.[/quote]
It's understandable. I've never said it isn't. It's undestandable mainly because of her age, then because of the society. Nevertheless, I think I can [i]expect[/i] a different behaviour from a girl in her position, even in Westeros. In my opinion it wouldn't been unrealistic. So I [i]understand[/i] her mistakes, but I dont' [i]excuse[/i] her.
I repeat: I don't want to despise Sansa in this way. I'm just highlighting her faults :)

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rah' post='1589007' date='Nov 14 2008, 16.52']"Look where she is now, and my hasn't the ride turned out to be fun, in classic GRRM fashion".[/quote]
I see where she's now. And then?
She's improved, but I really don't consider her as "super-awesome-fantastic". I don't see anything [i]so extraordinary[/i].
Moreover, saying that a character is "super-awesome-fantastic", "super-horrible-disgusting", "nothing special" or anything else... is basically a matter of personal feelings!
You can like Sansa, someone else can hate her etc

[Bolton Bastard]

Cheers AryaSnow.

And I don't see how mentioning factors from any book is wrong as they all contribute towards a character and a persons perceptions of them. Saying a character has improved simply states that an individual reader is more forgiving of past circumstances than another. And as a point of interest the journey is in my opinion incredibly interesting, the character is not.

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

AryaSnow my friend, and we are friends for we share a love for Arya(3 points baby)... that is just it... because Sansa is Super-Awesome-Fantastic and it is just her nature to be so, she can't help it, but because she is... no one can dislike her... it is an irrational belief to dislike Sansa.... just a fact ladies and gentlemen... don't kill the mesenger.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1589028' date='Nov 14 2008, 17.11']In fact I've never stated this ;)[/quote]Ah, I didn't mean you did, I just mentioned it as a point we seemingly both agreed on.

[quote]This is a very complicated theme. It's impossible to debate about this in few lines.[/quote]No worry, I was just asking to clear that point in my mind, I understand better where you come from that way. I was actually flamed for saying the same thing you did in a general chatter thread, but even then you seem closer to Dawkins than I am, for I would think twice before saying that believing in Santa is stupid (well, you see what I mean) ;)


Anyway, agreed again, "super-awesome-fantastic" is caricatural or meaningless. Sansa is a good character, like many others in ASOIAF, and then it's a matter of favourites. If a character was totally perfect and impervious to stupidity, he'd be perhaps loved more by a part of the readers (see the following Dany or Jon have by simply approaching that barrier) but I would argue there that they would be worse, shallower characters, objectively.

[Sir MidKnight]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1586903' date='Nov 12 2008, 15.52']Since you insist on being serious ...[/quote]

I thought I would post in the spirit to which I believe this post was started.

First, I believe that it is virtually impossible to argue against any logic presented in the initial post to this thread.

Drumrun, Bolton and Ran, I was inclined to agree with you all on Sansa as being a horrible character until I reflected on what I interpret this post to mean.

Here it is. Imagine that you are a young lord in Westeros. Sansa is the perfect Super-Awesome-Fantastic trophy wife!

She is reported to be exquisitely beautiful. The fact that Jeoffrey wants her (he is going to have her often even if she is married to Tyrion) is evidence, the fact that Loras gave her a flower is evidence, and the fact that the Hound wanted her to sing to him (I think he had a special song in mind) suggests that Sansa will be able to play the trophy wife for many years (and when she is older, she can be discarded as old trophy wives are want to be).

As Drumrun notes, she does not make good decisions. However, keep in mind that Super-Awesome-Fantastical trophy wives are not be allowed to make any significant decisions. Thus, her lack of any real common sense is not a problem. She will only be allowed to do needlepoint, dance, sing, dress very nicely, etc.

As Ran points out, she is not likely to stab you, which makes her perfect for the Super-Awesome-Fantastical trophy wife. (With Arya or Cersei, you would have to watch your back. Sansa will just come back for more!) As her lord, you want to be able to have your way with her whenever, whereever, and however you want, without fear that she might fight back. She should use "courtesy" as her only armor, which, as her Lord, you may ignore freely as it suits your preferences.

Other points for Sansa as Super-Awesome-Fantastical trophy wife. Sansa no longer has that annoying dire wolf that might have prevented you from using and abusing her at will. Similarly, you don't have to worry about her dad, who might have looked disfavorably upon any overt use and abuse of his precious little girl. Her eldest brothers are not a problem either as one cannot leave the Wall and the other met a most gruesome demise. Sansa also comes with a claim to Winterfell. Significantly, Sansa is now used to being exhibited and beaten in public, so she will not complain when you order it as needed or desired. Finally, no matter how much you use and abuse her (well, within a modicum of reason), she will not think you to be as mean as her first suitor or as ugly as her first husband (well, at least for most of you)!

Thus, from the overwhelming weight of the evidence, it can be safely concluded that Sansa is the Super-Awesome-Fantastical trophy wife for a Westeros Lord! The point is conclusively established! :cheers:

[mormont]

[quote name='Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rah' post='1589007' date='Nov 14 2008, 15.52']To harp on factors of the first book as reasons against Sansa Super-Awesome-Fantasticty is rediculous...[/quote]

Against, true. But for?

Go and read the chapter where Joff takes her up on the wall to see Ned's head. That's in AGOT, and you know what? She's super-awesome-fantastic in it! :D

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

Mormont, you are so right!

And Sir Midknight your post was spot on. Loved it. Definitely the type of thing I wanted from this thread hehe. God it was funny.

[Red Sun]

[quote name='mormont' post='1589303' date='Nov 14 2008, 20.05']Against, true. But for?

Go and read the chapter where Joff takes her up on the wall to see Ned's head. That's in AGOT, and you know what? She's super-awesome-fantastic in it! :D[/quote]

That's such an underappreciated scene, and I love it dearly. While I never really hated Sansa, even not when she was the spoiled princess, that scene made me love her.