What do you feel about Arya and her...

[Errant Bard]

So what you're saying then is they picked out some completely random person and had him killed? That goes against everything we know about the FM.

Oh, yes, Pate was not random, and if Robert had gone through it, Dany would be peachy as a target. I also suppose that when Jaqen tells Arya to name anyone, he actually means "anyone evil, you know"

Your argument, which is at the core that people killed by hitmen deserve what they got because someone paid that hitman, is screwed up on so many levels it's not funny.

[kephv]

Oh, yes, Pate was not random, and if Robert had gone through it, Dany would be peachy as a target. I also suppose that when Jaqen tells Arya to name anyone, he actually means "anyone evil, you know"

Fist of all, we don't really know what Jaqen is up to. He could very well be breaking a lot of rules that the society wouldn't approve of. And Pate wasn't at all random. If you pay attention you'll see there's a certain key he gave Jaqen and of course he took his face.

That still doesn't negate the fact that the

insurance salesman

wasn't just some random thing. I see no reason to believe what he told Arya about him was wasn't the truth.

Your argument, which is at the core that people killed by hitmen deserve what they got because someone paid that hitman, is screwed up on so many levels it's not funny.

I see you're the one who likes inventing things. I never said that. At all.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

'Tb0ne'

Controlling Fear - From my point of view at least if she was following Forel's teaching she would have no need for a list. The quote, "Fear cuts deeper than swords" does not suggest she should be driven by revenge, in fact it would suggest that she shouldn't be... as revenge is in part driven by fear. Arya's fear of the people who hurt people she cared about in part drives her need for revenge.

Revenge is a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived. It is also called payback, retribution, retaliation, vengeance, or as justice. I think Arya is driven by pure anger and hate, not fear. As for Daeron, where is it written that just because a person is no longer in Westeros that justice cannot be served? If it were Ned do you think he would not have issued the kings justice to Daeron?

[The Undead Martyr]

The FM aren't random; it kind of defeats the purpose of assassination. More to the point, there are strong implications that they aren't just a sellsword for hire type thing... profit is not their objective.

One thing I'd like to add- the Insurance Salesman isn't an HMO that cut off an ADHD kid's funding- "insurance" as described by the FM is "a wager no man wishes to win, but at least if his ship goes down he can die knowing his family will be cared for."

Even (especially :commie: ) in the mercantile proto-capitalist Braavosi society, public welfare is not a concern of the state, or anyone else for that matter. THe FM weren't lying- that ship captain is literally thinking of his family as he drowns, and whether or not the insurance guy will cover the costs. This, IMO, is the rationale that Arya used to convince herself of the "justice" of the act.

That said, it is a slippery slope, ambiguity is practically the norm. However I'd like to add the sheer quantity of death. How many soldiers did Robb, Tyrion, Jaime, et al kill during the war? Did they even think about the poor bloke as they were scattering his brains everywhere? Battle or no, medieval strategy involves mass killings; Robb's army was raiding the westerlands "paying the Lannisters in their own coin" i.e. killing and looting peasants, and Tyrion was actively planning mass burning.

Even outside of war- Tyrion and Simeon (?), etc. Really, is there any difference between a revenge killing, a legal execution, vigilante justice, war or assassination? Death is death, and dead is dead. The one thing I can say about Arya- she always tries to do the "right" thing- skewed or not, she has a strong sense of justice, and I strongly believe that a jarring encounter (Tyrion?) with a "villain" will force her to accept a more nuanced nature of morality. That, and having a different "family" than the HoWaW.

So, Jon, Dany or Tyrion?

[rmholt]

The House of the God of Many Faces will help her grow out of this need to kill individuals she personally hates. It has kept her focussed through very tough times but is no longer needed.

On a tangent, I am rerereading AFFC and noticed that everyone on the ship to Braavos made sure Arya knew their names. I am thinking this is some sort of superstition to protect themselves from a Faceless Man bc they dont seem to kill ppl they know.

Personal growth seems to be a theme here, some do and some dont. Jaime has really grown. Arya though I think has a tremendous potential to grow. The growth seems to parallel the severity of the loss if it occurs.

[lyvyathan]

I'm not so sure I thought her killing of the Bolton guard was over the top. I mean what had he done to her? Even the slaying of a minor character in Oldtown seemed ludicrous. After that, I couldn't help thinking of Arya as Arya the Terminator.

[Stien]

"Arya's a frickin' kill-stealer" First I am sorry if I am quoting incorrectly. I am a newb so please bare....

As per the quote from post five I do not believe that she is counting kills. I belive she is checking off names of people that are dead. Like with Joff, she is not saying that she killed him, she is telling herself "hey i do not have to worry about that person anymore" Per the moral side of it. Please remember that Arya is a child/pre-teen that has had to see alot and has had to live through alot in a period that death is pretty regular. She as become part of a religion "so to speak" and is trying her best to seperate herself from vengance. Because she is a child she has created multiple personalities to do so. but i believe that her moral compass has always been pointed to the north. She is my fav charector and jon of course. I actually will name my daughter after her (when that time comes)

[kephv]

A killer name ;) Just make sure she does her needle work and all should turn out well :fencing:

[Damar]

I'm not so sure I thought her killing of the Bolton guard was over the top. I mean what had he done to her? Even the slaying of a minor character in Oldtown seemed ludicrous. After that, I couldn't help thinking of Arya as Arya the Terminator.

The Bolton guard was between her and safety. What was she supposed to do, knock him out? She even required him to lean over in order to get near enough for a lethal stab.

[lady crackhead]

Why isnt Theon on her list? In all the time she traveled around Westros, no one ever told her her two baby brothers were dead & that Theon killed them.. ?

Edit: Oh , did she think he was dead, too? But was he ever on her list? I dont recall that...

[rmholt]

Oh, yes, Pate was not random, and if Robert had gone through it, Dany would be peachy as a target. I also suppose that when Jaqen tells Arya to name anyone, he actually means "anyone evil, you know"

Jaqen meant ANYone. When Arya grilled him on that it couldnt have been more clear. And when Arya went after the insurance salesman she tried to justify it to herself in a lot of ways, including that he was a bad guy. the Kindly Man refuted all the arguments, including the "bad guy" argument, making it clear that the killing had no justification except that it was her assignment - someone had "prayed" for it, whatever that means.

[NOc]

I think her killings and her training, especially

going somewhere else in the next book and her kill with the poisoned coin, showing that she is excelling at her work in the House of Black and White

will help her return home, whether it is actually Arya or No one is a different story

[rmholt]

Why isnt Theon on her list? In all the time she traveled around Westros, no one ever told her her two baby brothers were dead & that Theon killed them.. ?

Edit: Oh , did she think he was dead, too? But was he ever on her list? I dont recall that...

Arya found out that Bran and Rickon were dead in aCoK. However it was not said how it happened. She was going to ask Elmar her betrothed (who didnt know who she was) but he turned her away rather rudely, saying no one cared about a serving girl's brothers, and whining about the fact that he was dishonored and wasnt going to marry his princess. Creepily Arya thinks "I hope your princess dies". She prays awhile and becomes rather fearsome. She decides to take off from Stark (the grey cat) and "allies" and escapes from Harrenhal.

If she found out how they "died" please provide a reference - I made an honest search

Marie

[Flockofwords]

Evening all! I hope it's not bad etiquette to just jump right into a discussion (total newbie here)?

Arya is definitely one of my favourite characters, and I agree with pretty much everything that TeaRose said above. I'm boggling that there's a suggestion that she's a psychopath or a sociopath; Arya is a child possessed of exceptional resilience and flexibility and a fair measure of her father's ruthless sense of justice.

She gets a kick out of being the Ghost in Harrenhal, she also gets a kick out of being trained to be an assassin, singing "all men must die" in the rain. Maybe she thinks that what she does is just, but her "being a child" doesn't work for her deadly wishes, because absolutely no other kid thinks like that, except, wait for it, Joffrey, and it's not really a sterling comparison.

Mate, I don't mean to be trollish, especially in my inaugural post, but I get the impression that you have a rather unrealistic and idealised notion of how children think. Innocence most definitely does not mean sweetness or niceness. Children are intensely passionate, ruthless, selfish and ego-driven wee creatures. That's how we start out - monstrously selfish. It's only after a gradual process of socialisation that kids take on board concepts like sharing and fairness and forgiveness and all that jazz. (I speak as someone who likes kids enormously, incidentally; I'm a teacher, and I work with a wide range of ages. They aren't saccharine little Hallmark card angels, they're fabulously passionate little monsters.)

For my money, there's nothing incongruous about Arya singing, and comparing her to Joffrey is WAAAAAY off the mark. Joffrey enjoys enormous wealth and privilege, and he uses his position to consistently humiliate, belittle, degrade and demean those who are less powerful than him. He actively enjoys psychologically and physically torturing vulnerable and innocent people. Arya isn't remotely like that. She values people on their own merits, not on the basis of their social status or usefulness to her. She repeatedly demonstrates compassion and courage, even though she's not a particularly sentimental kid. She's a survivor, and the world she's stuck in is not a kind one, but she's making the best of what fate throws her way.

I must admit, I have zero problem with her having killed that damn runaway Black Brother Dareon. Were I in her place, watching him laughing and joking and whoring and singing and drinking, boasting about how he's dishonoured his vows and basically giving a massive "screw you guys" to Jon and Benjen and all the brave men who are standing between Westeros and the evil ice zombies from hell, I'd want to slit his throat too. He has it coming. He's a deserter. he's a full grown man, empowered in ways that Arya can't hope to be, and instead of using his strength and skills to help the innocent people of the North, he's deserted them. He's a symbol of all the protectors who have failed in their responsibilities, either by turning a blind eye to the rapes and the mutliations and the thieving and murdering, or by actively embracing that aspect of warfare. He shouldn't get to scamper off and party while his brothers are dying to honour their vows. I'm behind Arya all the way on that - and it's as Arya of Winterfell that she commits the killing, her father's daughter.

(Granted, I loved the living hell out of the movie 'Leon', so I have a track record of being in favour of small girls learning to be assassins - still, I do agree that it's most unlikely we'd be having this conversation if Arya was a 14 year old boy called Arry. I think that some people, whether they realise it or not, do rather think Sansa is an example of a normal and appropriate girl.)