What do you feel about Arya and her...

[Jeejee]

I'm amazed by two things. One, that your first assumption was that she had bought his boots, given that everybody else's first assumption was that she killed him;

I think my initial reaction was because I'd been waiting (and waiting, and waiting) for Arya to attempt to get in touch with Jon. He's her favorite brother and the only family she has left (minus the missing Sansa). We know family, or a "pack," is still something she desires, from her attempts to form a proxy family with Gendry & Hot Pie, and her initial desire at Saltpans to go to the Wall. Also, from a narrative point of view, it seemed to me that Dareon and Sam had a "layover" in Braavos (and not Lys or Lorath) for a reason - to tie Arya & Jon's story together. This was reinforced by the fact that, in such a large city, the three came into contact.

Initially I thought Arya would try to pass a message through Sam. However, Dareon outlived his usefulness to the story. He wasn't continuing on to Kings Landing, he wasn't doing anything but sitting around Braavos. Arya was familiar with his habits and whereabouts, so I was primed, in a way, to suspect that she would use him in some way.

Was this your working assumption after she obtained the boots, but before she told the KOM she had killed Dareon? I'd be even more shocked if your assumption withstood her story to the KOM. Like most people, initially I was totally convinced she had spoken the truth.

Yep, that's what I believed until she told the KOM that she killed Dareon - then I took her word for it, and was disappointed. It wasn't until I reread all her chapters consecutively that I came to believe she had lied to the KOM. It was reading the part about the youngest, blind acolyte that did it.

I'm intrigued by any solution to the logistical problem of Arya getting boots, even one that at first blush is hard to imagine. It's difficult to walk around without boots/shoes, and Dareon was making pretty good money by his singing, so I wouldn't expect him to sell the boots out of desperation for cash. OTOH, he might have wanted to get rid of his last NW clothing - to complete his dissociation from the NW. Unfortunately, such dissociation is sort of contrary to my hopes he'll go to the Wall.

Dareon seems to be spending all his money on fancy clothes and whores. And passage on a ship is expensive, requiring payment of a good deal of silver or of gold. (Going by the exchange between Arya and the captain at Saltpans. "The captain spilled out the silver onto his palm and frowned. 'Is this all you have?'" -p.853 ASOS) Dareon brags that "Every time I play the Eel I come away with silver," (AFFC mass market 734) which makes me think that this is an unusually high payment for him. So if he saved money he could potentially purchase a ticket on his own, but it doesn't sound like he is saving any - and the fact that he has promised to sing at the Eel that very evening makes me think he has been running low. This could answer both where Arya got the boots, and where Dareon got the money for passage back to the Wall.

(As to him going barefoot - I dunno. I'll have ot think about it. I like the idea of him being forced to walk around shoeless. But I'm not a Dareon fan, and I have a sadistic streak.)

I suppose he might have sold the boots for passage back, if Arya put the fear of a deserter's death into him. Since I doubt Dareon would take her death threat seriously, I like your idea of a threatened letter. That wouldn't require an outside agency, as I had conjectured could usefully have helped Arya frighten Dareon into returning to the Wall.

This is the part that I'm the least confident of: Arya's ability to scare Dareon. He appears to want to build a life there (he's planning how within a year he'll be eating crab with the courtesans), and Arya revealing his desertion to anyone on the Wall would make staying in Braavos long-term problematic, if someone were to track him down. However, when he left the Wall they were pretty busy with the Others and the wildlings and Stannis, so perhaps he wouldn't think he was taking much of a risk.

[80r]

She is killing for revenge, this makes her actions murder.

No it doesn't. If Oberyn killed Gregor, would that be murder? He fought for revenge, didn't he?

[Manakhkubar]

No it doesn't. If Oberyn killed Gregor, would that be murder? He fought for revenge, didn't he?

Oberyn was clever enough to cover his revengerous murder attempt with a totally legal institution, Trial of Combat. By that, Gods are obliged to forgive him. Another such example might be Robb, who is very angry about the murder of the Lannister hostages. But instead of murder, he decides to take a more accepted road to have the Karstark head off.

[Dune of Norvos]

I loved Arya,and still do,and I sincerely hope that she doesn't become a psychopath.Her chapters have the best writing,are most interesting, and well she just has a great personality. Arya Stark,not Cat.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Yep, that's what I believed until she told the KOM that she killed Dareon - then I took her word for it, and was disappointed. It wasn't until I reread all her chapters consecutively that I came to believe she had lied to the KOM. It was reading the part about the youngest, blind acolyte that did it.

...

Dareon seems to be spending all his money on fancy clothes and whores. And passage on a ship is expensive, requiring payment of a good deal of silver or of gold. (Going by the exchange between Arya and the captain at Saltpans. "The captain spilled out the silver onto his palm and frowned. 'Is this all you have?'" -p.853 ASOS) Dareon brags that "Every time I play the Eel I come away with silver," (AFFC mass market 734) which makes me think that this is an unusually high payment for him. So if he saved money he could potentially purchase a ticket on his own, but it doesn't sound like he is saving any - and the fact that he has promised to sing at the Eel that very evening makes me think he has been running low. This could answer both where Arya got the boots, and where Dareon got the money for passage back to the Wall.

...

This is the part that I'm the least confident of: Arya's ability to scare Dareon. He appears to want to build a life there (he's planning how within a year he'll be eating crab with the courtesans), and Arya revealing his desertion to anyone on the Wall would make staying in Braavos long-term problematic, if someone were to track him down. However, when he left the Wall they were pretty busy with the Others and the wildlings and Stannis, so perhaps he wouldn't think he was taking much of a risk.

I appreciate the drift of your thinking. Those who suspect Arya lied to the KOM seem (incredibly, to me) to be in a microscopic minority. The effectiveness of George's misdirection is surely worthy of advancement to the blind acolyte stage!

Good observation about the cost of passage - it's often a good idea to follow the money. I find the money so nebulous that I rarely focus on it quantitatively.

Scaring Dareon: I've also been waiting, and waiting, and waiting ... for Syrio to reappear. Helping solve the fright problem would be easy for the former First Sword, and Martin would need to hide any such assistance from the reader to make Arya's lie believable. I've thought a lot about the Meryn Trant fight, and I can't see Trant wasting time trying to kill Syrio when his instructions are to capture Arya, who is getting farther away by the moment. The fact that Arya ended in Braavos, and that Syrio was Braavosi so would presumably appear there after the KL coup (and had special skills to recognize her), particularly combined with the suspicious circumstances of his disappearance, just seem far too convenient to have been accidental; OTOH, Martin could have decided it's been too long to bring him back to the story now. It hardly matters; I'd be just as pleased if Arya solved the problem by herself, perhaps with a letrer as you suggested.

The youngest blind acolyte strongly implies that blindness is a fairly early part of the training, which suggests Arya has graduated a grade. Since her lying instruction went on quite a while, it makes sense she would need to be deemed to have adequately mastered lying before she would move to the next level. That in turn suggests she told the lie quite well. So I agree it seems a pretty strong hint.

However, the thing that most convinced me was Arya's extensive (50 X) advance practice of her story. If telling an unpleasant truth, one might conceivably study how to tell it so as to minimize censure: distribute blame, provide justification, etc.; but Arya didn't do anything like that. The story was simple, making no attempt to deflect blame or excuse her behavior, so that doesn't explain the practice. One might also worry about how the story will be received, but worry isn't practice. To tell the simple truth requires little thought, as Arya demonstrated with her other "facts". Since she wasn't artfully softening the impact, an intent to deceive is the only remaining explanation for her extensive practice.

[Axon]

I appreciate the drift of your thinking. Those who suspect Arya lied to the KOM seem (incredibly, to me) to be in a microscopic minority. The effectiveness of George's misdirection is surely worthy of advancement to the blind acolyte stage!

My assumption of the graduation has always been that Arya was, at that point, able to make a true distinction between being Cat, being Arya, and being "no one." She talks about it in third person and such. However, the lying aspect is also in play, as GRRM makes such a big deal out of the house residents testing each other with lies.

Of course, that's assuming she's not actually blind forever. :P But it will probably end up something like "you will be sightless until you can truly see lol vaglar sightgulus"

[Jeejee]

Of course, that's assuming she's not actually blind forever.

I doubt that's going to be the case. We've seen a number of Faceless Men by this point, and the only one that was blind was the youngest acolyte. It seems clear to me that it's simply another step in her training. I'd bet money that the next time we see her, she's lighting the candles in the HoB&W.

About Syrio as Arya's threat: I'm not convinced that he's still alive, although I'll admit I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the another. Characters who seemed to be in more imminent peril certainly lived (Bran & Rickon, Sandor, the freaking Cataver, and I suspect Brienne). The biggest problem I have with this theory is the lack of foreshadowing. There's no indication that Arya even looks up Syrio in Braavos, and if she found him, I'd expect her to want to live with him rather than apprenticing at the HoB&W (after all, Syrio could continue her sword fighting lessons, he probably would take her in considering he was willing to give his life to save hers, and he wouldn't make her throw away all her stuff).

Unless you think he's a Faceless Man? (My knowledge of the Syrio-is-Alive argument is spotty, sorry! I'm new to the board, and I've been hopping around.) I don't see any evidence for this theory either, if indeed it is one. Syrio must have had a very impressive career as a sword fighter for Ned (head of one of the greatest Westeros families) to hire him, which makes it seem impossible that he could be a FM, who would shun any history, let alone such a public one.

[Maester Marq]

Arya's killings are disturbing, simply because she's still such a young child. But at the same time, that's what makes her such a fascinating character. All the Stark children (including poor Robb) have been warped by tragedy and have had to grow up very fast...nobody more than Arya. Her almost-reunion with Robb and her mother is still one of the most heart-wrenching things I've ever read.

Martin's done a great job with Arya so far...resisting the easy cliches such a character might have settled into and, instead, making her path a twisting, turning, epic journey.

In some ways, Arya's slow descent into a darker, more brutal place seems to parallel her mother's much quicker (and more horrific) descent into death-dealing vengeance. I didn't connect those dots until Arya took the name "Cat" in Braavos (her mother's childhood nickname). Both characters are tragic, but there seems to be hope yet for Arya to become something more than just an assassin.

We shall see!

[Callie]

Well, I feel so dumb that I totally missed the fact that where Arya went was the training ground for the Faceless Men. Maybe it was reading it on a Kindle, which makes going back too difficult. I just finished AFFC, after devouring them one after another, and I somehow just didn't get it. I thought her being blind was a punishment from the KOM. Sheesh. So I did what someone else said they did, and re-read all her chapters one after the other, and it's all there in black and white. The coin, the way people spoke to her about it, etc. It's off to the bookstore for printed copies so I can re-read them.

Arya is my favorite character. I think her killings have all come about from necessities. (Dareon, maybe not, but then that was justice from her standpoint.) I can't see her ever loosing Arya completely. As long as she has Needle hidden, Arya will be a part of her. I think she's groping for a place to be, to feel whole again. I don't think she's beyond help at this point. Maybe if Jon were to come back into her life, or even Bran, but that seems unlikely. So I'll just have to wait to find out. (And I have nothing but sympathy for those of you who read these books as they came out and have been waiting over 5 years after reading AFFC!)

Anyway, thanks for a fascinating discussion!

[AvengingAryaFan]

About Syrio as Arya's threat: I'm not convinced that he's still alive, although I'll admit I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the another. Characters who seemed to be in more imminent peril certainly lived (Bran & Rickon, Sandor, the freaking Cataver, and I suspect Brienne). The biggest problem I have with this theory is the lack of foreshadowing. There's no indication that Arya even looks up Syrio in Braavos, and if she found him, I'd expect her to want to live with him rather than apprenticing at the HoB&W (after all, Syrio could continue her sword fighting lessons, he probably would take her in considering he was willing to give his life to save hers, and he wouldn't make her throw away all her stuff).

Unless you think he's a Faceless Man? (My knowledge of the Syrio-is-Alive argument is spotty, sorry! I'm new to the board, and I've been hopping around.) I don't see any evidence for this theory either, if indeed it is one. Syrio must have had a very impressive career as a sword fighter for Ned (head of one of the greatest Westeros families) to hire him, which makes it seem impossible that he could be a FM, who would shun any history, let alone such a public one.

It seems a very good point that Arya would want to live with Syrio if she found him in Braavos. Yet there are many considerations that might render it unwise for her to do so: apprenticeship at the HoB&W might be a rare privilege to be preserved as long as possible; she might be anxious to gain FM skills as quickly as possible so she can return to Westeros and help the Stark cause (which, after all, is what needs to happen for her narrative to make any sense in the overall series); and while she needs to be competent with a sword, her gender likely precludes the sort of superiority in open combat that a rare few like Syrio and Barristan Selmy have achieved, so sword expertise alone would be inadequate for her to achieve the kind of lethality her character arc points toward.

As for foreshadowing: consider the emphasis Syrio placed on "seeing what is there" despite expectations - he specifically correctly identified a cat in his story about the Sealord's selection process. That sets up an expectation that Syrio would recognize Arya no matter her appearance - especially as Cat of the Canals! Add to that the early hint that "Jaqen H'ghar" sounded "like Syrio but different", which was almost certainly an indication that Jaqen had a Braavosi accent, and the fact that in desperation Arya went to Braavos, which is where Syrio would naturally go at some point. If he survived, and if Arya is publicly visible for a substantial period of time (crying the catch all over the waterfront!), it seems almost inevitable that they would connect. The logistical setup is so compelling that it seems like more than ample foreshadowing to me; YMMV.

As to whether he survived: Syrio should certainly have survived the mediocre Trant, as I argued ad nauseum here, but I encourage both your doubt and a review of the indicated thread (it's only 4 pages of admittedly dense argument).

Re: the Syrio=FM theory expounded most persistently by Roi Woodt, I agree with you. There are only a couple of tiny hints supporting that conjecture, and many obstacles requiring contrived, unseen and unhinted facts to make it logically possible. The theory seems wrong to me, even though I'm generally favorable toward theories of Martinian misdirection (which doesn't, of course, prevent me from being mistaken in dismissing it).

My greatest concern about Syrio is merely that the explosive growth of the story will force GRRM to pare some of the originally intended threads out of the tapestry of the series. Though not originally expected, by now so many books have intervened between the Syrio/Trant fight and the logical time for his reintroduction in Braavos that it may be too stale (in view of the Chekhov's Gun principle); consequently, George may choose to find another way to reconnect Arya with Westeros - the role George was likely considering for Syrio. It might be more direct - for example, perhaps via LC Jon when Dareon delivers a message from Arya to him :cool4:.

[StarkWard]

Personally, I think her killings are a bit unrealistic for a 10-year old, even if she did get a few dancing lessons from a knight of the Sealord of Braavos.

[JonTargaryenSnow]

Arya's death list is justified. There are a few people she'll definitely be adding as soon as she learns about what the've done. The people on her list aren't people who only hurt her or her family, but people who needlessly harmed strangers too, or even behave dishonorably in her mind. I know GRRM said at some point that the POVs of the younger characters were more difficult for him to write but when I think about the way a young girl such as Arya would deal with tremendous tragedy I think her actions and emotions are spot on. She's hardened herself enough to push forward but retains enough of herself to keep a right mind. Anytime she thinks of Jon mussing her hair or remembers her family or even when she wields Needle, she's proving that regardless of the name she goes by at the time, she really is still Arya Stark of Winterfell. Her path in the story makes a lot of sense, IMO and I hope she's a major influence in the outcome of this story. I also hope that she, almost more than anyone, has a happy ending. She has certainly scrapped her way through the books enough to have earned one.

[kephv]

Love Arya. She's my favorite POV by far.

As for the killing itself, I cheered her on for most of it. The tickler's death is my favorite - pure poetic justice. Dareon's death though... He was a deserter, and I felt nothing but contempt for him after what he did to Sam and Aemon, but even so, I felt really bad for him.

Imagine finally getting your life back only to have some little girl slit your throat for no apparent reason in the middle of a dark alley. What a terrible way to die.

I was definitely with the Kindly Man on this one that

she had no right (though I don't think there is a right answer to that)

. I do like how she justifies it, but overall I think she's just getting too comfortable with killing (where she just might snap at anyone with the slightest provocation). I guess it's only natural; she's practically grown up around death and murder which, for a nine year old, isn't really the most psychologically healthy environment.

Personally, I think her killings are a bit unrealistic for a 10-year old, even if she did get a few dancing lessons from a knight of the Sealord of Braavos.

Pretty much all her killings have been stabbing unaware people. They're basic ambush attacks that pretty much anyone with a long knife could do.

[cripples and broken things]

I agree with Kingswood knight. I don't think people would be calling Arya psychotic if she were a boy. She is unbalanced by all the things that happened to her and she is lost within herself, but what no one is mentioning is how strong she is not to have totally gone catatonic or the whole way off the deep end. I always liked about Arya as a character that she's proactive. Not many young kids would have made it as far as she has in her situation. I'm not annoyed that Arya is emotionally distant from death. It's what I'd expect from someone that's been through the level of horror and trauma she has. Even hardened soldiers like Jaime Lannister 'goes away' inside to escape from what they've experienced. Arya lost complete control of her life and her whole reality. I really think the killing is a means to regain some feeling of power, a feeling of not being at the mercy of others anymore. I'm not saying it's healthy, I'm just saying it's what happened. She's not bad and I don't even think she's crazy. But she is lost and I do hope she finds her way back to herself. I don't want her to become 'Nobody'. I think it would be cool if by the time everything is said and done she realizes that she was always 'Arya' and she eventually retrieves Needle and goes back to Westoros.

[Mendoza]

I love Arya. I don't judge her because I certainly have not walked anything close to her path and I certainly don't have a pych degree. The writing in her chapters are uncluttered and entertaining, compared to other long standing POVs that have become weaker reading. Her path was forshadowed after the business with the fake prince went down. She sent her direwolf away and Nymeria has become bigger and more powerful. The same thing is happening with Arya. Compare to the 'stupid' Starks like Ned, Cat and Robb, Arya has something they lacked: basic survival instinct that trumps all other emotion.

Dareaon betrayed everyone, heck, humanity as a whole. He knew what kind of threat the Others posed and still he cast aside his oath. I'm hearing Optimus Prime in my head when it comes to him, "You betrayed yourself."

No one on her death list doesn't deserve to be there.

[Smokingfinehash]

She definitely has some severe sociopathic tendencies, though she does seem to feel emotion like a normal person. I generally find her chapters to be boring though I don't skip over them outright like I do with Bran's.

[Ser Robin the Not-So-Brave]

Arya's my favorite character. Her revenge on the Tickler was possibly the most satisfying moment of the series for me, and I think she is justified in wanting to kill everyone on her list. I mean....if people on this forum can friggin defend the actions of the likes of Cersei, Roose, Tywin, etc., I think it's safe to say that an 11 year old girl wanting to survive and take revenge against those who have killed her loved ones is nowhere near as deplorable.

Arya is not a sociopath or mentally disturbed for a young child - she doesn't enjoy killing for the sake of it and only does it out of necessity for her survival, or for justice. Keep in mind also that adulthood starts much younger in GRRM's medieval world - this is a place where it's perfectly normal for a 13-year old girl to marry and bed a 30-year old man. Arya is near maturity in this society, and in addition is forced to grow up quickly in the harsh cruel world (though of course she's still naive in many ways). She is scarred by war and deserves the same pity and respect (and rehabilitation) as a soldier with PTSD returning from war. Another analogy would be the classic superhero origin story, where a young kid loses loved ones and eventually grows up to become a masked vigilante seeking justice.

Arya does venture into morally grey area, especially during her escape attempts at Harrenhal and the Saltpans (weasel soup/killing the guard at the gate, considering killing the woman who swindled her out of a horse). However, these are all done because she thinks they're necessary for her survival (and I don't believe she would have killed the swindling woman even if no one was there, though she considered it). Her killing Dareon (assuming she actually did it and wasn't lying) was a little disturbing at first, but his life was forfeit the same way any Night's Watch deserter's is - she herself declares that it was "Arya of House Stark" who killed him, as her father would have.

I hope (and predict) that the remaining people on her list all die, and she is the one to kill one of the remaining main "villains" of the series (Cersei, Roose, Ramsay, Walder - though except for Cersei she would have to add those people to her list first). And of course the reunion with Needle, Nymeria, and her siblings goes without saying. Though knowing GRRM she is probably going to go out in a blaze of glory before the series ends, in a bittersweet ending. It just seems that when there is peace in the world and her vengeance is complete, she won't really have any place in it anymore. Sure, she could go back to being a Faceless Man, but I don't think that would be a satisfying end for her to lose her identity again. And though she is a Stark, it just wouldn't seem fitting if she ended up marrying a lord and being a lady in some castle.

Which means the natural conclusion of her story arc in ASOIAF is her death, a fitting ending considering she's the character most closely embodying death :( The only other option I can see is if at the end of the story, she goes off on some adventure or takes on a job which allows her to remain Arya Stark but still be awesome and apply her FM training and survival skills (ambassador to Braavos? work for the Iron Bank?) But that's probably just wishful thinking

[Ser Robin the Not-So-Brave]

I also have to say that not just Ned's execution, but Arya's viewpoint during his execution, was one of the saddest things I ever read. Maisie William's look of hopelessness and despair as her face is pressed against Yoren on the TV show was very powerful too, and reading and watching this scene really justified for me, on an emotional level, everything Arya does throughout the series.

Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her.

And then a hand shot out of the press and closed round her arm like a wolf trap, so hard that Needle went flying from her hand. Arya was wrenched off her feet. She would have fallen if he hadn’t held her up, as easy as if she were a doll. A face pressed close to hers, long black hair and tangled beard and rotten teeth. “Don’t look!” a thick voice snarled at her.

“I . . . I . . . I . . . ” Arya sobbed.

The last line gets me every time.

[Versalin]

Arya is a fun character. Her thought processes are really straight forward and simple as everything appear to her as either white or black, or good or evil. She doesn't hesitate much to off someone if she thinks he deserves it. Such simplicity in thinking and judgement probably stems from her maturity.

[Verboten]

Arya is a good character but I don't understand why everyone touts the Tickler scene as being awesome. A ten or eleven year old should never ever be put into a situation where they have to kill someone and my heart just broke when I read it.