What do you feel about Arya and her...

[Rinso]

IIRC she removes him from her list earlier. She wonders herself why she has left him out.

Not exactly true. Here:

"Ser Gregor the Mountain," she said softly. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." It made feel queer to leave out Polliver and the Tickler. And Joffrey too. [...] Sandor moaned and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. Sha hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis."

After that she leaves him to die slowly from his wounds, denying him a merciful death, and in her first AFFC chapter, he's no longer on her list.

[Breakspear]

So, lay off the strawman, it's not about gender, it's about being an assassin.

Aside from being an assassin, I would say 'murderer' is also appropriate. She has killed unnecessarily, for no profit to herself. I just don't think there is reasonable justification for killing Dareon. It's quite chilling.

I agree that gender is a complete red herring here. If people are uptight about anything, it's the fact that she is a child and is capable of doing these things.

[Axon]

I would anticipate that Arya will be among the most dangerous adults in the series if she makes it that far. I had always hoped she'd be the one to get Gregor; it would be symmetrical for one of the smallest, weakest characters to kill one of the most physically dangerous. I suppose he may well be alive, though in what form remains to be seen.

Nonetheless, if you think about it, you cannot blame Arya for the position she has taken. Her life is surrounded by violence, and it seems everywhere she goes she encounters a violent murderer. People are constantly capturing her or threatening her. People are constantly being killed around her. How can you react to this? You can be meek, like Sansa, you can play things similar to Cersei, though Arya is too young to use her sexuality as a weapon, or you can just start fighting back. She fights back because that's in her nature, and her world has nurtured that aspect of her personality. If she didn't show some natural affinity to be a faceless...person, JH would never have given her the coin. This is why GRRM is such a brilliant author - at the foundation of all his work are very believable characters. The only issue is that she's like, 10 years old, and her activities are more akin to that of a 13 year old. But that's true of all the super kids, they're ramped up 3 or 4 years.

[George Snow]

Aside from being an assassin, I would say 'murderer' is also appropriate. She has killed unnecessarily, for no profit to herself. I just don't think there is reasonable justification for killing Dareon. It's quite chilling.

I agree that gender is a complete red herring here. If people are uptight about anything, it's the fact that she is a child and is capable of doing these things.

Daeron deserted the Night Watch. And as a Stark, she knows that NW deserters have a death sentence placed on them. You can argue about whether it is right to kill a NW deserter when he is not in Westeros, but I think she actually is reasonable in killing him. While Daeron didn't have any profit for her, it is morally correct for Starks to kill NW deserters.

The kill that I feel was the most unreasonable, was when she killed the guard at Harrenhal. She could have tried to knock him unconscious, and then if he fought back, I wouldn't have felt as bad about her killing him.

And if you want people to be assassins, you normally start teaching them while they are children, so that they do lose their sensitivity to killing.

GH

[The Marquis de Leech]

Daeron deserted the Night Watch. And as a Stark, she knows that NW deserters have a death sentence placed on them. You can argue about whether it is right to kill a NW deserter when he is not in Westeros, but I think she actually is reasonable in killing him. While Daeron didn't have any profit for her, it is morally correct for Starks to kill NW deserters.

It's disturbing in the sense that we see an eleven-year-old girl taking it upon herself to act as judge, jury, and executioner (especially considering that the laws of Westeros don't apply in Braavos, so it's simple vigilante justice on her part).

[Patrick Tully]

Well, I don't know about Westerosis, but to "terrestrial" human beings this kind of training before the age of 12 is just bad. Forel teaches her as if she would be an adolescent or adult with all their mental capacit (and maybe in Westeros, she is - it seems that aging there is different from "our" development process).

Of course, her training becomes handy when confronted with, well, you know ...

Seeing all that might have been traumatizing, but would be still curable. But she learned to cope with that in a way that would do irreparable damage to her if she was a child in our world.

So kids who take fencing and martial arts training before puberty become monsters in our world? I think you're stretching quite a bit equating Syrio's training with creating a child soldier. Does this mean Bran and Tommen are even more dangerous since they are using practice swords at younger ages in the beginning of the series?

Now your second statement makes more sense,because being forced to kill and being in a war as a child does do serious psychological damage. However, they have been able to work with some child soldiers in our world and rehabilitate them.

[Jon Westerland]

Arya scares me. Love her. but she scares the wits out of me. She is way too quick to kill people/ She is a child and doesn't find killing disturbing. Grown men are known to get sick after killing someone. She is a little girl and she lists the people she has killed to lull herself to sleep.

Just my opinion.

[The SmilingKnight]

You people who are scared by her or seem to want to paint her as a bad person one way or another seem to completely forget what is it that made her the way she is now.

And its not an excuse. Its a reason.

[Jon Westerland]

You people who are scared by her or seem to want to paint her as a bad person one way or another seem to completely forget what is it that made her the way she is now.

And its not an excuse. Its a reason.

You seem to have missed the part that I LOVE Arya. Just seems a bit disturbing that she is acting like a sociopath. I suscribe to the philosphy that trial does make you who you are but rather shows who you really are. Whilest that may not be ascribed to Arya, as she is a child, I think that it is frightening who she is becoming or is.

[Manakhkubar]

So kids who take fencing and martial arts training before puberty become monsters in our world? I think you're stretching quite a bit equating Syrio's training with creating a child soldier. Does this mean Bran and Tommen are even more dangerous since they are using practice swords at younger ages in the beginning of the series?

I obviously did not made clear what I meant. Sword play is a perfect game (hence the "play") for children of that age. But Syrio's training is not limited to sword play. And, even then you don't become a monster, just a little bit spoiled at a time where your mind has no defense against that (because that part of your mind develops heavily during the age of 11 to 14). Again, it seems the Westerosis are developing differently.

Now your second statement makes more sense,because being forced to kill and being in a war as a child does do serious psychological damage. However, they have been able to work with some child soldiers in our world and rehabilitate them.

I never heard of a "cured" child soldier that started fighting before the age of 12 and continued until the age of 14. But I'm no expert in that field ...

You people who are scared by her or seem to want to paint her as a bad person one way or another seem to completely forget what is it that made her the way she is now.

And its not an excuse. Its a reason.

I don't speak English very well. What is the difference between an excuse and a reason here?

[The SmilingKnight]

You seem to have missed the part that I LOVE Arya. Just seems a bit disturbing that she is acting like a sociopath. I suscribe to the philosphy that trial does make you who you are but rather shows who you really are. Whilest that may not be ascribed to Arya, as she is a child, I think that it is frightening who she is becoming or is.

I dont think you understand what she has gone through, really.

Otherwise her behaviour would not be shocking at all or surprising in any way.

She didnt go through any kind of "trial" good ser.

She went through a meat grinder where who she was, her connections to ordinary life, family and people whom she loved were systematically destroyed.

To me the fact that she still clings to her humanity is an amazing feat.

I don't speak English very well. What is the difference between an excuse and a reason here?

The same as in any other language.

[Jon Westerland]

I dont think you understand what she has gone through, really.

Otherwise her behaviour would not be shocking at all or surprising in any way.

She didnt go through any kind of "trial" good ser.

How do you define trial good ser?

I define it as adversity.

She went through a meat grinder where who she was, her connections to ordinary life, family and people whom she loved were systematically destroyed.

Exactly. She wen't through adversity.

To me the fact that she still clings to her humanity is an amazing feat.

Which is why I love her. Doesn't mean I stamp my approval on the fact she is becoming a sociopath

[TrackerNeil]

The kill that I feel was the most unreasonable, was when she killed the guard at Harrenhal. She could have tried to knock him unconscious, and then if he fought back, I wouldn't have felt as bad about her killing him.

That doesn't make much sense to me. How was Arya supposed to approach the sentry carrying a weapon large and heavy enough to knock him out without arousing suspicion? And even if she could do so, was she strong enough to wield it with sufficient force to put him out with one hit? I don't recall if the man was helmed, and I don't have the books with me to check, but that's also a factor. Even if everything went in her favor, knocking someone unconscious is not as easy as "Star Trek" reruns would have you believe. Arya might have succeeded only in bloodying the man and pissing him off.

Consider the consequences of failure. If Arya only wounded the guard, he'd either kill her or arrest her. Given that at the time there was a guy around Harrenhal who liked to cut off limbs, the second was nearly as bad as the first. Arya simply could not take the risk; if she attacked the guard she had to do so in a way that made him least likely to raise an alarm, and that meant cutting his throat. There was no other realistic option.

You can lay alot on Arya - Dareon springs immediately to mind - but I'm not sure you can blame her for not trying to knock out the guard at Harrenhal.

[Inglorious Pencil]

She also demonstrated turpitude by failing to include such villains as the Imp, Theon Greyjoy, and Janos Slynt. These oversights make me increasingly concerned about the direction of Arya's character; if this is the kind of sloppiness we're going to have to deal with regards to her revenge plans, it's going to make her whirlwind of destruction somewhat uneven thematically.

I don't know, I think this one of the things that highlights that she is just a kid, albeit a very traumatized and effed up one. Kids are unlikely to see things in perspective, the deal more with the here and now imo. It's like when she "wastes" her Jaqen kills on Gregor's minions rather than on Gregor himself. IIRC she even realizes this afterwards, but while she has definitely grown up too fast in some aspects of her life, she is still showing a great deal of immaturity... which, ironically, is probably one of the most normal things about her at the moment, being eleven years old.

[Tb0ne]

Well, I don't know about Westerosis, but to "terrestrial" human beings this kind of training before the age of 12 is just bad. Forel teaches her as if she would be an adolescent or adult with all their mental capacit (and maybe in Westeros, she is - it seems that aging there is different from "our" development process).

Of course, her training becomes handy when confronted with, well, you know ...

Seeing all that might have been traumatizing, but would be still curable. But she learned to cope with that in a way that would do irreparable damage to her if she was a child in our world.

Syrio Forel trained her to use a sword in the water dancing style as well as some Braavosi/personal philosophy. There was nothing in his training that said she should keep lists of people to kill.

Going to steal from the wiki abit here, Syrio's training taught:

Perception - Learning to see without prejudice. To look and see what's actually there and tell the truth. Even if the war hadn't happened this would have helped her.

Physical training - Improved coordination, balance, strength, stamina, skill with swords, etc. Even if Syrio saw the war coming he was simply giving her the means to defend herself.

Controlling Fear - From my point of view at least if she was following Forel's teaching she would have no need for a list. The quote, "Fear cuts deeper than swords" does not suggest she should be driven by revenge, in fact it would suggest that she shouldn't be... as revenge is in part driven by fear. Arya's fear of the people who hurt people she cared about in part drives her need for revenge.

[The SmilingKnight]

How do you define trial good ser?

I define it as adversity.

Exactly. She wen't through adversity.

Adversity is a joke, compared to what she has gone through.

But thats the usual logic of downplaying the importance of events she lived through only so you could exhibit this superficial conclusion:

Doesn't mean I stamp my approval on the fact she is becoming a sociopath

Which, btw, is not a "fact" at all.

Other than that, how in the world would you expect her to behave? Should she dance around picking flowers? Develop a serious case of Knightly ideals of justice and goodness?

Be a nice little girl?

[Jon Westerland]

Adversity is a joke, compared to what she has gone through.

But thats the usual logic of downplaying the importance of events she lived through only so you could exhibit this superficial conclusion:

Which, btw, is not a "fact" at all.

Other than that, how in the world would you expect her to behave? Should she dance around picking flowers? Develop a serious case of Knightly ideals of justice and goodness?

Be a nice little girl?

Adversity IS what she goes through. Anything bad you go through is a trial and an adversity. You have some problems with English Ser.

How would I expect her to behave? Like a REAL girl would.

Children lose parents all the time. Sometimes both. People lose their siblings. Sometimes both their sibling and their parents. Yet there is a notable lack of sociopaths in said group. Example: Eddard Stark. eddard was (as far as i can tell) reasonably green when Aerys burned his father to death and strangled his brother. Like Arya he had a long trial where he fought men who were his friends, and killed them. If you believe L + R = J he watched his sister die and then had to lie to his best friend about his sister. And he became a very melancoly man for it. Because he took no enjoyment and was indeed saddened by those he killed. He has a eternal sense of penance, remorse about him.

What scares me isn't that Arya kills people but that she is undisturbed by killing people and worse, seems to enjoy it.

[Vuron]

If Arya had acted "like a REAL girl would", would she currently be alive?

I've read all these Arya = Sociopath arguments for years and don't understand them. Every Arya kill has been perfectly justified by the circumstances. With the exception of Daeron, if even one of these people is let to live, Arya is either killed or captured in all these situations. I understand that most readers can't put themselves into the situation of having to kill to survive and I hope you never will, but this is not Arya's case. She's not killing randomly or without reason.

And most people point to the Daeron kill as evidence of her downfall when, to me, it indicates that she still has some humanity left and is try to hang on to the past. A previous post said that Arya had made herself judge, jury, and the executioner of Daeron. I agree, but that is a Stark's responsibility with deserters of the NW. The entire series opens with a beheading of a NW deserter by a Stark. This execution is, simply, Arya trying to hold on to her past and struggling to remain a Stark instead of turning into a Faceless Man (or woman). This assumes that Daeron is even dead.

[Errant Bard]

I understand that most readers can't put themselves into the situation of having to kill to survive and I hope you never will

You seem to speak from experience, lording it like that. So you put yourself in a situation where you had to kill to survive, at one point? How was it?

But anyway, having to kill to survive doesn't mean you don't suffer psychological damage. Child soldiers are often forced to kill, sometimes their own parent, and they suffer from massive disorders. It's not their fault and it's not fair but it's like that. The idea that becoming mentally unbalanced is the result of a choice is rather weird.

[Axon]

Remember, her world is not our world. Our society might emphasize standing up for yourself, but just flat out killing people for [insert reason] is not tolerated. However, it is tolerated in Westeros, which has substantially less consequence related to violent crime. Jamie killed the former king and is still a member of the Kingsguard. We know him to be justified, but the reality is, even if Robert or Ned wanted to off him, it wasn't happening unless you took out House Lannister. Other examples include Gregor Clegane's crew just killing that kid when they captured Arya, the Hound jacking Mykah, Old Bear Mormont getting stabbed by his own man - it's the wild west out there.