Perception of the Lannister boys

[spitsphyre]

I do believe that you've missed the point, and quite spectacularly. Nobody's saying these are good people, but rather comparing their shades of grey. The OP was exploring why it is that Tyrion's reputation/notoriety is often seen in a far more favourable light than his brother. When comparing their deeds, it's my opinion that Tyrion is in much greater need of redemption than Jaime. That's not me saying either of them nor any of the characters are "good people"

Well based on the fact that people are willing to accept the shades of grey in Jamie I don't think he's as vilified as you made him out to be. Though I find it hard to believe you can't understand why people would be revolted by his actions.

I don't think there are many readers of this book who will say they love everything any character does. We can all see the stupid in our favorite characters and all see the bad.

Tyrion DOES need redemption but he's in the middle of his arc and making a bunch of mistakes. This is the blackest hour for his character arc. His redemption is for crimes done after we came to enjoy him. Had he started the book hurting children (who weren't Joffery) and being an ass we wouldn't be so fond of him.

Jamie started out pretty thoroughly awful in everyone's heads, which is why he is currently in the middle of redemption and working toward it. He has good stuff inside of him but he IS just as much in need of redemption as Tyrion. Saying that he's not is just overlooking a wide array of human nature.

They're just written to perfectly pull our heartstrings in certain ways. There's nothing wrong with how people see them.

[Talleyrand]

(Also, Edward Longshanks was an absolute legend, whatever Braveheart says!)

Yes what an legend exiling the jews and slaughtering Berwick, invading Wales and destroying all their heritage.

[Talleyrand]

OT: Why does Jaime get a free pass with the attack on the riverlands by saying it's war yet Tyrion gets hassle for the Blackwater?

[FatCatOberyn]

I can't understand how some people in the 21st century can hold Aerys' death against Jaime? What was he supposed to do? Go kill his own Father and let a madman burn King's Landing to the ground? Because of an oath!? Justice always comes before honor in my book.

[spitsphyre]

I can't understand how some people in the 21st century can hold Aerys' death against Jaime? What was he supposed to do? Go kill his own Father and let a madman burn King's Landing to the ground? Because of an oath!? Justice always comes before honor in my book.

I think THAT is a more 21st century way of looking at things than the other way around. Honor used to mean a lot more to people and they did stupid things to protect it. Like stoning their daughters if they got raped and couldn't marry the rapist. Or disemboweling themselves if they did the "wrong" thing. Justice SHOULD come first, but things were different then.

[Alexius]

An interesting topic. Thank you.

Tyrion's "crimes" are motivated by selfishness (revenge for himself, self preservation). Jaime's "crimes" are "selfless", i.e. he is motivated by his love for Cersei and Tyrion and disdain towards Aerys.

Jaime's compassion are limited by a tunnel vision to a handful of people who are close to him. And these emotions trump moral. Tyrion has a much greater ability for compassion, but he sees himself as the most wronged person (because of Tywin) so he's compassionate towards himself above all.

Jaime has honor as a moral backbone but it was repressed and twisted by his Kingslayer status. Tyrion doesn't have much of a moral backbone.

I think that Tyrion could be both much more decent and much more vile person than Jaime. And at the moment he's on a steady course towards latter.

[Nihilist]

I agree with those that state that many of Tyrion's crimes are motivated by selfish reasons, while Jaime's crimes are usually not self-serving(often the opposite in fact).

Also, I think Tyrion doesn't get enough crap for killing Tywin. Sure he treated him horribly and did a despicable thing to him when he was 13. But what did Tyrion killing him do? He put the kingdom in the hands of a maniac like Cersei which culminated in her making a bunch of idiotic decisions that will lead to MORE war. House Lannister is also in complete shambles. Tywin WASN'T EVEN RESPONSIBLE for Tyrion's predicament. That was ALL Cersei doing. Tywin even tried to get him out of it, but Tyrion just doesn't care. Perhaps if Tyrion hadn't threatened to FREAKING RAPE Tommen in aCoK, he wouldn't have been singled out in aSoS. Tywin was a jackass, but he was just what the realm needed. Tyrion's act was selfish revenge that will get a lot more people killed.

And the whining...Tyrion was given pretty much more than just about anyone in the realm. Yet he whines about the "injustices" done to him CONSTANTLY. Sometimes he makes me wish that Tywin gave him a Tarly lesson instead of a sharp one.

[tarantella]

And the whining...Tyrion was given pretty much more than just about anyone in the realm. Yet he whines about the "injustices" done to him CONSTANTLY. Sometimes he makes me wish that Tywin gave him a Tarly lesson instead of a sharp one.

Yeah, he definitely deserved to get killed for all that complaining.

I guess Tywin did try to get him offed once in fact, by putting him in the most dangerous spot in their first battle with Robb Stark. It's pretty clear he doesn't care about Tyrion beyond his formal standing as a Lannister and his son anyway. Again none of this actually excuses Tyrion gunning down his own dad, but I'd still say it was a heat of the moment thing. Tyrion probably wasn't considering the fact that Cersei would take over or what kind of administration she'd run when he shot him.

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh, they're both complete bastards, but amusing and sympathetic bastards. If you could visit Westeros, I'd love to have a beer with Tyrion or talk about fighting with Jamie. And they have just enough redeeming features, enough residual humanity, that you can root for them.

If I visited Westeros, I'd stay the H*ll away from any of the Lannisters (also the Tyrells), as people who befriend them often meet messy ends while the various Lannisters shrug or facilitate the unfortunate one's downfall...

Starks are dangerous too, given their bad luck, but at least they're usually honest and loyal and will often go down with you.

Jaime reminds me of a tiger - beautiful to look at, and sometimes it can be pleasant to its keepers, but it's still a wild animal at heart, and not to be trusted. Jaime has become marginally more self-aware since he lost his sword hand and fell out with Cersei, but he's still selfish and amoral. Sorry, I don't excuse deliberate would-be child-killers. And as bad as Cersei is, in refusing to come to her aid at the end of AFFC, Jaime is also abandoning Tommen, who now has neither parent looking out for him.

If Jaime had true remorse over crippling Bran, he would have gone with Brienne to try to find the only (as far as they know) surviving legitimate relatives of his victim and help the girls; or tried to help Jon Snow in some major way by sending more men to the Wall or going himself.

Jaime could have figured out another way to survive Bran's seeing him and Cersei. Yes, his and Cersei's children were endangered by Bran's seeing, but did that give Jaime the moral right to try to kill Bran, who blundered into the situation? It was actually Jaime and Cersei who put nooses around their own children's necks by making them children of treachery and incest. They should have planned an emergency escape route for those kids years ago in case of discovery or someone figuring out the big secret; but Jaime and Cersei were both too arrogant, and the idea of either of them giving up power/prestige and Joffrey's future crown to safeguard their three children does not seem to have occurred to them.

I have no problem with Jaime killing Aerys - yes, Jaime took an oath and joined Aerys' Kingsguard, but I call his action one of intelligent disobedience, Aerys was not only totally nuts and torturing people left and right, he was about to blow up a city.

Tyrion is going over to the dark side; I fear. By killing his unarmed father, I think he set himself on the path to becoming more like Tywin as he grows older, that is, if he becomes older. I view Tyrion's killing of Tywin as an attempt to avenge Tysha's rape; and Shae went above and beyond the imperative (say, coercion) of giving false witness against Tyrion, so by the moral (?!) of Westeros, Tyrion's killing of Shae might have some justification.

[vsthorvs]

Tyrion killed Tywin because Tywin had Tyrion's wife Tysha gang raped, and forced Tyrion to participate. That's more than a little abuse.

I think readers sympathize with Tyrion because he is punished for things that AREN'T his fault. His father treated him badly because his mother died in labor. He has been put on trial for crimes he did NOT commit twice in this series. He was blamed for there being a lack of food, because of a war he did NOT start or want to happen.

Redemption is about penance, but Tyrion has already had to pay for so many things he did NOT do, that I don't feel he needs to seek redemption. He's done right by the only people who would ever be able to treat him well (Jon and the Starks.)

What Tyrion should do now is seek vengeance. The Kingdom has turned against him. He should strike back in turn.

[mcb]

What has Jaime done that was so bad that he's in need of this redemption? (this is just off the top of my head having reread the series last month)

- Broke his sworn oath when he killed the mad King Aerys.

And well done. One of his few good deeds, unfortunately.

- His relationship with Cersei. Incest isn't my thing, but he does think he loves her. Added to that she's married to a drunken abusive man i'm not going to knock him for covetting his neighbour's wife.

I also don't give rat's ass about them being siblings. However, I also care preciously little about them being in love, or Jaime being in love to be precise. Their affair was a direct cause for the succession crisis and following civil war. The realm got half destroyed because Jaime wouldn't keep it in his pants. His sex life isn't that important.

- Throwing Bran from the tower. Okay this is bad, almost certainly his worst act. Yet, in doing so he was protecting his sister and the woman he loves.

Let's leave that one for a second... To be continued.

- Attacked Ned and had Jory killed. IMO quite understandable. Ex-Hand Ned is outnumbered in a confrontation situation.. so what does he say? Why, that Tyrion was arrested under his orders of course. Smart move Ned.

Still it was Jaime who ordered the murder.

Now onto Tyrion's deeds..

- Promises the Vale to complete savages.

Those were his words. But what he in fact promised was just steel. The only thing he could bargain in exchange for his life.

- He orders Bronn to murder a singer and make him into a bloody stew! This is just depraved. His motive? The singer might, well, start singing a tale and then the little man wouldn't be getting regular sex anymore. Bless.

Dude, you can't have it both ways. You can't exonerate Jaime's attempted murder of Bran because he protected the woman he loved and a few lines later scold Tyrion for the same thing. At this point Tywin had promised to kill another whore of Tyrion's. And while Bran was just a little boy who liked to climb walls, Symon was adult man who decided to blackmail Tyrion.

- Strangles Shae for..? being a whore? Or maybe because her testimony humiliated him at his trial? Who knows what pressure she was under to give that evidence. But the little man's pride was hurt, so he murderered her. Okay then...

Well, she perjured herself to try and get him killed, plus added gratuitous humiliation. I can see why he wouldn't be very fond of her at that moment.

- Murders his father in cold blood. Tyrion shoots an unarmed man in the gut because Tywin was a cruel father that has wronged him many times. There's no justification in murdering someone because they're horrible and you want revenge.

Stop contradicting yourself. If Jaime was justified in killing Jory Cassel and his men because Ned had (to his knowledge) Tyrion abducted, then Imp was at least as justified killing the man who had his wife gang-raped. And as for killing an unarmed man - Tywin understands perfectly. The Red Wedding, the murder of Princess Elia and her children... He really can't complain about tasting his own favorite medicine.

[Nihilist]

Yeah, he definitely deserved to get killed for all that complaining.

I guess Tywin did try to get him offed once in fact, by putting him in the most dangerous spot in their first battle with Robb Stark. It's pretty clear he doesn't care about Tyrion beyond his formal standing as a Lannister and his son anyway. Again none of this actually excuses Tyrion gunning down his own dad, but I'd still say it was a heat of the moment thing. Tyrion probably wasn't considering the fact that Cersei would take over or what kind of administration she'd run when he shot him.

Tywin was going to use the Mountain Tribes as the left force before they told him that they would only fight with Tyrion at their side. It is Tyrion's fault that he is in that position in the first place. Unless you are going to blame Tywin for the fact that the Mountain Tribes had him captured?

The fact he doesn't think about the consequences of his actions does not excuse him. And I strongly disagree that he was in emotional distress when he kills Tywin. He tells Tywin very clearly if he says a word he will kill him. That is not emotional distress. Emotional distress would be charging up to Tywin's room and killing him. He literally has a freaking conversation with him and threatens him. And then after he shoots him he remarks.

"You were always quick to grasp a situation my lord," Tyrion said. "That must be why you are Hand of the king."

Then he makes a quip about him not actually shitting gold...

Ya that is the comment of someone in emotional distress./sarcasm

This was a vengeance killing from someone who wouldn't get another chance.

Stop contradicting yourself. If Jaime was justified in killing Jory Cassel and his men because Ned had (to his knowledge) Tyrion abducted, then Imp was at least as justified killing the man who had his wife gang-raped. And as for killing an unarmed man - Tywin understands perfectly. The Red Wedding, the murder of Princess Elia and her children... He really can't complain about tasting his own favorite medicine.

How is killing your father who is sitting on a privy the same as killing one of your enemies guards? How are they EVEN REMOTELY similar? What were the consequences for killing Jory? Oh ya nothing because he was a nobody. The death of Tywin put a lunatic on the throne and plunged the realm into MORE chaos. Ya, some lives mean more than others in the grand scheme of things.

"Old gods or new, it makes no matter, no man is so accursed as the kinslayer".

[zmflavius]

Tywin was going to use the Mountain Tribes as the left force before they told him that they would only fight with Tyrion at their side. It is Tyrion's fault that he is in that position in the first place. Unless you are going to blame Tywin for the fact that the Mountain Tribes had him captured?

1) If the mountain tribes didn't insist on holding Tyrion's hand, where do you think Tywin would have put Tyrion? 2) Do you really think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving your son, however much you may despise him, in the most dangerous part of the battle solely because you're too lazy to move 300 horsemen, a negligible force, to another part of the battle?

The fact he doesn't think about the consequences of his actions does not excuse him. And I strongly disagree that he was in emotional distress when he kills Tywin. He tells Tywin very clearly if he says a word he will kill him. That is not emotional distress. Emotional distress would be charging up to Tywin's room and killing him. He literally has a freaking conversation with him and threatens him. And then after he shoots him he remarks.

"You were always quick to grasp a situation my lord," Tyrion said. "That must be why you are Hand of the king."

Then he makes a quip about him not actually shitting gold...

Ya that is the comment of someone in emotional distress./sarcasm

This was a vengeance killing from someone who wouldn't get another chance.

And he was not deserving of vengeance why? This is a guy who just discovered that his father had his wife gang-raped because he thought she was of low-birth. Even back then, that would have been egregious. Surely you do not approve?

How is killing your father who is sitting on a privy the same as killing one of your enemies guards? How are they EVEN REMOTELY similar? What were the consequences for killing Jory? Oh ya nothing because he was a nobody. The death of Tywin put a lunatic on the throne and plunged the realm into MORE chaos. Ya, some lives mean more than others in the grand scheme of things.

"Old gods or new, it makes no matter, no man is so accursed as the kinslayer".

Lunatic? What lunatic?

[Nihilist]

1) If the mountain tribes didn't insist on holding Tyrion's hand, where do you think Tywin would have put Tyrion? 2) Do you really think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving your son, however much you may despise him, in the most dangerous part of the battle solely because you're too lazy to move 300 horsemen, a negligible force, to another part of the battle?

I don't think Tyrion would have been involved in the battle at all. In fact I KNOW it because Tywin asks him to do something completely separate from the battle.

"If you have mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear raiding our lands across the Red Fork."

Then Tyrion says that he has "pressing business elsewhere" and Tywin adds.

"Beric Dondarrion, some young lordling with delusions of valor. He has that fat jape of a priest with him, the one who likes to set his sword on fire. Do you think you might be able to handle them as you scamper off? -512

He makes NO mention of Tyrion taking part in the battle. Only when the Mountain clans point out that they will not be separated from him does Tywin look to Tyrion.

He put the Mountain clans in a position so that they would break and he could wheel in as they routed. Was it a dangerous position? Sure. Was it as dangerous as the vangaurd? I don't think so. I don't think it was a death sentence at all. Just a dangerous position. As Tywin said he put the most undisciplined men on the left. Simple as that.

And he was not deserving of vengeance why? This is a guy who just discovered that his father had his wife gang-raped because he thought she was of low-birth. Even back then, that would have been egregious. Surely you do not approve?

As for whether he deserved vengeance...I never said that Tywin didn't deserve to die. Just that Tyrion selfishly kills him and it puts the lives of his family and the realm at risk. Not to mention he commits the GREATEST CRIME possible in the Seven Kingdoms. But you know you keep going on about that rape thing as if it justifies Tyrion murdering him.

Lunatic? What lunatic?

What lunatic? Are you serious? CERCEI. There is seriously no one more insane than her. Do I need to point out the catastrophic decisions she makes?

[mcb]

How is killing your father who is sitting on a privy the same as killing one of your enemies guards? How are they EVEN REMOTELY similar?

A murder is a murder, that's what similar. Although, unlike Ned's men, Tywin had it coming, so I agree there are differences.

Then he makes a quip about him not actually shitting gold...

Actually, he doesn't. The narrator does, so probably GRRM indeed wasn't in any emotional distress over Tywin's death.

What were the consequences for killing Jory? Oh ya nothing because he was a nobody. The death of Tywin put a lunatic on the throne and plunged the realm into MORE chaos. Ya, some lives mean more than others in the grand scheme of things.

The lunatic was already on the throne.

[SerArthurHeath]

I agree that both brothers have done some awful things (Jaime's worst was sleeping with Cersei when she was married to Robert- even if I think Robert was an awful character who via apathy was at least as horrible as early series Jaime as I feel that passive evil is no better than active evil just more cowardly- it's still treason, oathbreaking, repeated crimes he has already been pardoned for, incest, adultery etc), Tyrion's seem to me to be understated because he's had a harder life in more obvious terms and is funny and clever (though as of aFfC I find Jaime both wittier and more intelligent). On the whole both are selfish, though I think Jaime is becoming less so. The difference is, regardless of how much redemption he still needs, Jaime is getting better and Tyrion is not. I also prefer Jaime because the things afflicting him are less physical and less obvious and more interesting IMO than those afflicting Tyrion.

Some points here are ridiculous. In Medieval culture even of not in modern day (and I'd say it is the same for modern day) killing someone's soldiers instead of them is acceptable. Rob would do it. Everybody does. It's not nice but if you condemn Jaime for killing Ned's men when his family is at war with Ned but he can't kill him, then you do the same to Rob for killing Lannister soldiers instead of Jaime. It's a really stupid point IMO. As for war against the riverlands, once again that is how a feudal system at war works. It's not nice but it's an evil of the entire system not of individuals. Throwing Bran was bad but an act of passion as much as any other if that is an excuse (it's not) and though on a raw level we see killing children as worse than killing an adult in the same situation, practically it is of no consequence. Rationally, killing someone who is unlucky to be in the wrong place without giving them the chance to fight back is the same no matter who they are.

Telling Robert would not have stopped a Lannister stark war. It would have triggered it earlier, just with more people against the Lannisters. Killi v Aerys was perfectly acceptable to me, though I can see why others argue. I have no problem with his diplomatic defeat of the Tullys either. He has done a lot of bad things but they are exaggerated in universe and out, and I agree that Tyrion is no better. And Jaime should t least get the chance to try and make some things right, though he will also deserve his inevitable death. And I hope it is later rather than sooner because I love to read Jaime chapters

[SerArthurHeath]

And well done. One of his few good deeds, unfortunately.

I also don't give rat's ass about them being siblings. However, I also care preciously little about them being in love, or Jaime being in love to be precise. Their affair was a direct cause for the succession crisis and following civil war. The realm got half destroyed because Jaime wouldn't keep it in his pants. His sex life isn't that important.

Let's leave that one for a second... To be continued.

Still it was Jaime who ordered the murder.

Those were his words. But what he in fact promised was just steel. The only thing he could bargain in exchange for his life.

Dude, you can't have it both ways. You can't exonerate Jaime's attempted murder of Bran because he protected the woman he loved and a few lines later scold Tyrion for the same thing. At this point Tywin had promised to kill another whore of Tyrion's. And while Bran was just a little boy who liked to climb walls, Symon was adult man who decided to blackmail Tyrion.

Well, she perjured herself to try and get him killed, plus added gratuitous humiliation. I can see why he wouldn't be very fond of her at that moment.

Stop contradicting yourself. If Jaime was justified in killing Jory Cassel and his men because Ned had (to his knowledge) Tyrion abducted, then Imp was at least as justified killing the man who had his wife gang-raped. And as for killing an unarmed man - Tywin understands perfectly. The Red Wedding, the murder of Princess Elia and her children... He really can't complain about tasting his own favorite medicine.

I don't disagree that Jaime has done evil acts but I think your logic is flawed

A) whilst not an instant reaction, Jaime and Bran was undeniably less coldblooded than ordering someone else to find a man who could definitely be negotiated with and wasn't a threat to Tyrion's life and specifically murder him in conscious isolated from any incidents and incidentally force some cannibalism along the way. Both are evil but one is at least attributable to hot blood or lack of thought and limited other options whilst the other was by definition cold blooded to someone who was negotiating.

And the difference between Ned's men and Tywin is that one is an act of war (that's what soldiers are for) and the other was vengeful if understandable murder at best and vigilante decision of justice otherwise. The first can at least be legal whilst the second is definitely not.

[Leuf]

Tyrion is presented from the beginning of the story as flawed but likable. Jaime is first presented as the evil bastard that throws a beloved innocent Stark from the tower. It's only because we don't start seeing Jaime as something more than that for quite some time that Jaime is seen as being "redeemed" even though he hasn't changed at all, only our perception of him.

[Nihilist]

A murder is a murder, that's what similar. Although, unlike Ned's men, Tywin had it coming, so I agree there are differences.

Actually, he doesn't. The narrator does, so probably GRRM indeed wasn't in any emotional distress over Tywin's death.

The lunatic was already on the throne.

1.The fact that both are murder is the only similarity it seems...

2.No the narrator does not comment on the shitting gold...if you actually read the passage you would realize that.

"Well he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin did not, in the end, shit gold." -1073

3.Tommen was on the throne at the time with Tywin as Reagent. So no.

[Zoren]

Both Lannisters are "evil" using a very limited ethical horizon. And yet, Jaime seems to be the worst since he shows no regrets whatsoever for trying to MURDER an innocent 7 year old boy. Was he justified? HELL NO !!! Jaime does not gives a shit about Tommen, Joffrey and Myrcella so the argument of "He did it to protect the lives of his sons" is not valid. Jaime only cares for himself, Cersei and Tyrion.