Catelyn Defense Thread

[Aerys]

DEATH TO CATELYN!!! (well not exactly as she is already dead and a quite like undead cat as she will die again at the hands of jon or Bran I hope)

I really dislike Catelyn. She only thinks about herself- she wanted to call a ceasefire and look afetr her children and not go on with the war- well how many other mothers wanted their children back? It was for the good of ther realm as otherwise you would have had Joffrey on Iron Throne and he would have probably gone and killed Sansa in the end or something evil.

she hates jon-okay she is overprotective but Jon just wanted to say goodbye to Jon.

she also hates all bastards-Jon, that other bastard in the Eyrie.Now thats just plain evil and sad.

I just generally hate her she was always going on about how tyrion wasd her prisiner not Lysa's. Who cared at that point(I didnt really like tyrion at that point)We wanted Tyrion dead for the attempted assassination of Bran.

So I am a no soul, deat to catelyn person.

[jon tarkaryen]

hmmm lets see......she captured tyrion,she convinced eddard that he must go in kings landing,she free jaime,because of her robb lost karstarks,she hates jon,she convinced robb that bolton must led his army vs. tywin(greatjon would maybe lost all of his army but he would never betray robb,and if bolton remained with robb all of the time he wouldnt be able to betray him)

[Ashara]

Alive Caetlyn held my sympathy and from time to time sincere admiration in all she did, except for her relationship with Jon/her inability to put Eddard's unfaithfulness behind. But in the end, logically I know that it is very true to what a person would feel in that situation.

Uncat is a monster with whom I cannot emphasise, whom I blame for the corruption of the BWB and would like to see destroyed.

Overoll though, Caetlyn is one of the best characters in the series, written with an incredible skill, psycological exactness and a tragic, compelling storyline.

[Besselfunction]

Take Sansa, add 20 years and certain experience, substract some naivety and you've got Catelyn at the beginning of AGOT.

I dont like her, too emotional.

[The White Wolf]

I guess I am among the Catelyn deffenders. I did not like her character much; several times I just wanted to reach into the book, shake some sense into her. However, I always felt that she deserved better: much of her decisions and advice led indirectly to the death of her family members, she was loyal and loving to her family (cold to Jon, granted, but I can't imagine I would be any different if my wife came home with another man's baby), when she did give good advice it was not listened to, she witnessed how F-ed up her sister had become when going to her for help. With the kidknapping of Tyrion, I was more upset at Lysa than Catelyn. I didn't always like her but I felt sorry for what happened to her.

Un-Cat, on the other hand, is a blight on the books that should be dealt with ASAP.

[redhead_ginny]

she also hates all bastards-Jon, that other bastard in the Eyrie.Now thats just plain evil and sad.

She didn't hate Mya Stone, she was just wary of her, which is how everyone in the Kingdoms are kind of raised to feel. "Bastards are born out of lust and dishonesty, and so they are untrue and dishonest people" is somewhat the way it is generally put. She trusts Mya to get her across the bridge, which I really doubt she'd do with someone she hated. She also feels bad for her, because she loves a Knight and Catelyn knows they probably can't marry because of society restrictions. Its a huge streach to say she hated Mya Stone.

[Jaime L]

16-11 Defenders.

[Darkostar]

I understand where Cat comes from, and I suppose that makes me a fan, though I sitll believe she needs a slap in the face.

Now, to start a Petyr Baelish defense force...

[Kingslayer]

In fact I could say that Tywin made a stupid call by haveing Elia and her children killed in the Sack of Kingslanding!

If he hadn't executed Rhaegar's wife and children... Robert wouldn't have trusted him. His daughter wouldn't have become Queen. The Lannisters would never have gained control of the Seven Kingdoms.

So tell me: how was that a bad decision?

[Ironwill]

If he hadn't executed Rhaegar's wife and children... Robert wouldn't have trusted him. His daughter wouldn't have become Queen. The Lannisters would never have gained control of the Seven Kingdoms.

So tell me: how was that a bad decision?

I'll tell ya !

Climbing the social ladder is only effective if you dont make too many enemies on the way up. As Tywin says House Lannister had forsworn the Targaryens forever. Tywin should have made damn sure he destroyed the root and stem if he was going to kill the heirs of a dynasty. By not ensureing little Viesarys and Dany's death he was only asking for an ocean of troble down the road.

Also Elias death earned him the hate of Drone, a small thing at a glance, but potentialy deadly in the long run. Not to mention the nameless numbers of Targaryen loyalists.

No Tywin threw himself, and his house behind the wrong horse on that race.

As for the Lannisters controling the seven kingdoms... thats a laughable statement at best !

[Kingslayer]

By not ensureing little Viesarys and Dany's death he was only asking for an ocean of troble down the road.

Even though they weren't in King's Landing? Okay, then.

Also Elias death earned him the hate of Drone, a small thing at a glance

I've had this argument before. Anyway, it was the necessary price to pay.

As for the Lannisters controling the seven kingdoms... thats a laughable statement at best !

Really? Tywin's grandson is on the Iron Throne. The westerlands, the stormlands, the riverlands, the Reach, the Vale, and (gasp!) Dorne are backing him. The north is broken, and some of its lords have already gone over to Bolton.

Yeah, that's pretty fucking laughable.

[Ironwill]

Even though they weren't in King's Landing? Okay, then.

I've had this argument before. Anyway, it was the necessary price to pay.

Really? Tywin's grandson is on the Iron Throne. The westerlands, the stormlands, the riverlands, the Reach, the Vale, and (gasp!) Dorne are backing him. The north is broken, and some of its lords have already gone over to Bolton.

Yep, that's pretty fucking laughable.

So if for the whole duration of Dany's exile (some forteen years) a smart man like Tywin could not find some way to kill off a loony young man and a little girl? For the love of god man, Robert gets the idea to knock them off!

His grandson rules which areas now? Last time I checked it was the west, the reach, parts of the storm and riverlands that supported the Lannister cause. The vale is in Littlefingers hands which will not aid the Lannisters in holding the throne. Drone "backing him" is a token gesture and masks a more dangerous threat.

As for the north it is broken, but so were the Targaryens and they came back in a big way. As for the Boltons ruleing the north is temporary at best. They were involved in the killing of too many northers to ever crawl form under that shroud

So the Lannisters have the Reach as a soild ally, and will have to bend over backwards for the Tyrells for a long time to come.

As Kevan says the realm is broken and the Lanisters dont have what it takes to fix it.

[Kingslayer]

For the love of god man, Robert gets the idea to knock them off!

Uh, it was Robert's responsibility- he was King, not Tywin, remember?

His grandson rules which areas now? Last time I checked it was the west, the reach, parts of the storm and riverlands that supported the Lannister cause.

He has solid backing from the westerlands, the stormlands (notwithstanding the few minor lords backing Stannis), the crownlands, and the Reach. That's a massive chunk of the realm right there.

The riverlands are crushed, and at the very least won't openly oppose Tommen. The Vale... who knows? Somehow I doubt that Littlefinger's plan for Sansa is sincere. Dorne lacks the strength to fight alone, as Prince Doran explained. The north is shattered; with winter upon it, the region isn't even a threat.

No, I'm afraid that House Lannister is firmly in control. It will take a few "flying plot devices" (to borrow the apt phrase of another boarder) to change that.

[Ironwill]

Uh, it was Robert's responsibility- he was King, not Tywin, remember?

The fact that it was Tywin who presented the little corpses warped in the Lannister colors to Robert involved Tywin intimatly. No, if Dany or Vieserys had gained power in the free cities Tywins head would sit right next to Roberts, so kingship or no Tywin droped the ball on this front.

A sizeable chunk is under the Ironthrone, but building a base of suport on houses like those is asking for trouble. Lets not forget that almost all of those houses had at one time or anouther been with Renly or Stannis. And we saw how quickly they changed their loyalties.

With the Ironislands in open revolt, the Lannister's weakened due to the constant fighting, things do not look good for little lord Tommen.

[Kingslayer]

The fact that it was Tywin who presented the little corpses warped in the Lannister colors to Robert involved Tywin intimatly. No, if Dany or Vieserys had gained power in the free cities Tywins head would sit right next to Roberts, so kingship or no Tywin droped the ball on this front.

No one considered the Beggar King and his sister to be a threat. Ned Stark and Jon Arryn didn't, and their heads would certainly have sat beside Robert's. When the Targaryens did begin to amass support, Robert himself ordered Dany's death. Any effort of Tywin's would have been redundant, wouldn't you agree?

Lets not forget that almost all of those houses had at one time or anouther been with Renly or Stannis. And we saw how quickly they changed their loyalties.

The Tyrells have a very strong incentive for backing Tommen; their daughter is a queen dependent on continued Lannister rule. The other lords backing him have no one else to turn to, even if they wanted to.

[Grumpygoat]

While any belief that the murder of children's a right, Jim Dandy move is as despicable as can be, it is worth noting that Viserys and Dany were regularly on the move. While Viserys' claims that they were running from the Usurpers knives was likely part denial of him having to beg from place to place, I'd say there was at least some truth to it. However, the pair really only needed to survive a few years, after which point trailing them would become increasingly difficult, and the amount of effort needed to take care of them rises with it.

So Tywin may very well have been hunting them for the first one to five years. After that time, though, politics, Greyjoy's rebellion, and simple distance likely became greater concerns. Only when Dany became pregnant did the pair make a blip on the radar again.

And keep in mind that hunting them down couldn't have been easy: Varys supplied most of the information to the Small Council in A Game of Thrones about Viserys and Dany, and it's clear now he's working for the Targaryen's to rise again. So any early postwar efforts to find them was likely hindered greatly by the Spider.

However, the murder of Elia and her children was pointless, evil cruelty. The Lannister's only needed to kill one person to show their loyalty: Aerys. Who was both deserving of it and was killed by the Lannister's. Even Jaime seems to show some regret over Elia and the childrens deaths. All killing Elia and her children did was make enemies. Not only an immoral move, but a dumb one, when Aerys' death at the Lannister's hands was the only necessity.

[Ironwill]

The Tyrells have a very strong incentive for backing Tommen; their daughter is a queen dependent on continued Lannister rule. The other lords backing him have no one else to turn to, even if they wanted to.

I really do not see Tommen as a herald for Lannister power. He is after all a stamper, and will aprove any decree wether or not it is a Tyrell or Lannister that writes it.

Which is perhaps Tywins greatest failing, now that I think of it... He did virtually nothing to educate his grandchildren, the heirs to the throne.

Grumpygoat good points.

[Kingslayer]

All killing Elia and her children did was make enemies. Not only an immoral move, but a dumb one, when Aerys' death at the Lannister's hands was the only necessity.

Robert may not have felt that way. His "relief was palpable" after seeing the bodies; had he been forced to do the deed, I don't think he would be in a gracious or forgiving mood. He may have began to brood over Tywin's lack of support for his cause, and who knows what would happen then? It goes without saying that he wouldn't have married Cersei, but he may have gone beyond that and exacted vengeance on the Lannisters.

The murder of Rhaegar's children (Tywin did not order the death of Elia, by the way), as distasteful as it was, was necessary for two reasons: to give Robert's claim legitimacy, and to bond him to House Lannister.

[Ironwill]

However Tywin had just handed Robert Kingslanding on a silver platter. Robert would be in a dangerous position to have simply turned imeadiatly or years later to actually attack House Lannister.

Plus the fact it was Jon Arran who wanted Robert to marry the Lanisters. We have never had his opion on the killing of Rhagar's brood but Jon sounds more like Ned than Robert. He probaly would have still wanted Baratheon and Lannister to wed, if just for the security of the realm.

[ltm]

OK back to the topic of this thread which was started, as was explained because the previous thread digressed and became unmanagable.

I will count myself as one of the defenders for all the reasons stated plus this one:

Catelyn Stark is probably the best character Martin created that represents that medieval mindset how a medieval highborn woman might think. They are not going to accept their husbands bastards ...they are going to be "stuck up" they were raised to believe

their positions in life were almost ordained as opposed to earned they way we might think. Family is everything, who you married was your identity. Looking at how to advance one's family your duty. Training your children to be accepted members of society your duty. You oldest son was your husband heir, your other sons became knights or whatever, your daughter MARRIED AS WELL AS YOU COULD MANAGE.

So many of the knocks on Catelyn are how she treats Jon, or she didn't understand Arya or she made Ned go south.

Right...a medieval highborn woman was going to snuggle her husband's little baseborn son, let her daughter just run knowing full well it make her difficult to marry off, or tell her husband "I'm sure there were be absolutely no consequence at all to telling your king No don't think I want to be Hand and we really don't want our family fortunes to improve at all"

So many of the other "mistakes " of Catelyn's are no better or worse than anyone else's. Tyrion's killing of Tywin was as big a mistake/poor judgement/ evil act as anything Catelyn because it robbed the Lannisters of their leader and if one likes Lannisters one should worry.

Having read a lot of medieval history and letters (Pastons are really interesting) I find I understand Catelyn cause I think I have a good idea where she's coming from.

She's a well written character who is a high born woman drawn from the medieval timeperiod Martin knows so much about. And has commented that one of his issues with some fantasy is the use of mediavel time period while doing nothing but place 20th century type characters in it.

It's been mentioned before that the female characters who act a little more like the female fantasy characters we're used to...including the

Xena's , the Buffys, the ones who for all intents and purposes show strength by hitting things..are the more popular.

But I've met those characters many times now (Blood Ties actually has a girl who's skinny, acts and fights like a boy and runs with outlaws)

The Catelyns, the Sansas, some of the Lannister women (not Cersei, she wouldn't be out of place on the old eighties series Dynasty) we don't meet them that often. Some of you might think would be OK, I say that would make Martin's novel just another run of the mill bunch of books.

So I like that Catelyn stays in character and I wish things had gone better for her.

And I hope one day she gets to be with Ned again.