Catelyn Defense Thread

[A wilding]

Not pampered? I see your point, if considered against the "norms of her class". But what is Catelyn's class? Daughter of one of the seven greatest lords in Westeros. Counting the king, that makes her a scion of the top 8 families in all Westeros, in terms of wealth, privilege and social rank. By any objective definition, Catelyn was pampered to an extreme.

Am quite happy to agree that she was "pampered" to a similar extent to other ladies of her rank. (Though I notice that she cares little for protocol or luxuries and roughs it without the least complaint.) So?

Consider Catelyn's and Hoster's interaction.

So the fact that Catelyn had a good relationship with her father made her childhood a "fairy tale" one?

Consider the risks that Hoster took to maximize the best marriages possible for his daughters.

Are you really suggesting that Hoster joined the rebellion largely in order that Catelyn should have a pampered marriage?

Consider his leniency in the matter of LF (he would have died, if it had been half the other great lords).

LF challenged Brandon. There was little Hoster could do to stop that. Brandon chose not to kill LF in the duel. Seeing Brandon had made that decision, I see little that Hoster could do other than what he did - wait till LF was miniminally recovered and then send him home in disgrace.

Consider the leeway Hoster, Edmure, Ned and Robb all give her, even as an adult.

Could certainly argue about this, but I dont see what it has to do with fairly tale childhoods.

This leeway was something she had obviously grown to expect. Do you think Cersie or Margeary would be able to go flouncing through the kingdom on a moment's notice, with only an aged knight as escort? Robert, Tywin and Mace would have an absolute fit.

Catelyn had been formally put in charge of the North. That being so, her actions were hers to decide. (Flouncing is something of a loaded term though, wouldn't you say?)

Now look at Catelyn's two daughters, Sansa and Arya. Consider how they are being raised and that it is Catelyn who seeing to their upbringing. Look at what she thinks is important (embroidery, songs and proper manners).

A perfectly reasonable education for a lady. If Sansa had been betrothed to a Stark ally rather than a psychotic enemy there would have been no problem.

Sansa is, IMO, a mirror image of Catelyn (a Tully) and not just physically. Add 20 years to Sansa (before events of AGoT) and you have Catelyn.

There is remarkably little similarity between Catelyn and Sansa. Catelyn is and always has been a down to earth type. Sansa is a dreamer into clothes, songs, etc.

And if Catelyn had not manufactured an ideal Ned in her mind, why was she hurt when she arrived at Winterfell and found his bastard? She certainly didn't have time before her arrival to come "to love him" before Winterfell. If she was out of sorts, it lends credence that she was emotionally invested in Ned already, in record time. Sort of like Sansa and Joffrey.

Installing Jon at Winterfell before Catelyn even got there was delivering Catelyn a massive public slap in the face right at the start of their marriage. Any Westeros lady in Catelyn's position would have been seriously angered and upset, whatever her private feelings about her new husband. I repeat, we are told explicitly more than once that Catelyn only came to love her husband after the marriage had been going for a while.

[Beeswax]

This thread is less for arguing minutae and more for picking sides.

Haw haw haw, the road to hell is paved with good intentions

And put me down as a soulless monster, if anyone is keeping score at this point.

[Jaime L]

Haw haw haw, the road to hell is paved with good intentions

And put me down as a soulless monster, if anyone is keeping score at this point.

Lord, you're telling me. I knew the histrionics would pick up pretty soon, all warnings aside...but this even surprised me.

It's a sign of a super polarizing character.

Once you cut through all the long-winded arguments of...ahem, minutae...and account for each person (hopefully) only once, it becomes: 20-20 defenders/haters. The lines have been drawn.

[Star-Spangled Jesus]

I am Pro-Catelyn. Am somewhat-swing on UnCat.

And I don't really think that the Cat-haters are soulless. No, I think that they simply have Mommy issues. Perhaps, for them, being taken off the teat before the age of six caused them to feel unloved? Ha, ha. Down with minutae, up with hyperbole!

[Lord Mord]

Stevem,

Thank you for replying to my statements.

You are correct in that there was nothing of justice in Tywin's actions. However, his response to the kidnapping of his son was what would be expected of a feudal lord. The feudal contract flows two ways: 1) bannerman promises armed support for his lord, if lord is threatened; and 2) lord promises armed support for his bannerman, if his bannerman is threatened. If Tywin had not called his banners in reaction to Tyrion's kidnapping, his position as a feudal lord would have been weakened.

I argue the feudal contract is rife with inconsistencies based on the whims of an absolute monarch or a mob of vacillating nobles. This is unjust, therefore any appeal as to the legitimacy of murder on the basis it is supported by feudalism is equally unjust.

And I'd like to point out that when Ned was seized, his thoughts were that Catelyn would be calling the banners. Thus, Tywin did exactly what Ned thought should be done, as a result of a ranking noble's captivity.

Ned's opinion is not a panacea of moral fraud.

This is in error. An event can be set in motion by multiple actors, without which the event would not have occurred. The same holds true of Catelyn vs. Tywin causing the burning of the Riverlands.

Tywin ordered the Riverlands burned. That order was a direct response to Catelyn's seizing Tyrion. Both are at fault, especially under the cultural standards of Westeros.

In order for Catelyn to be at fault, Tywin's response would have to be not merely likely but inevtiable, which removes choice from consideration of Tywin's actions, which absolves him. Since this is not the case, then we must assign blame to Tywin. Furthermore, we must recognize that whatever the immediate situation, it was his choice to act by burning Riverlands, and worse, not claiming responsibility. Thus, the injustice of the arrest must be handled on its own terms, regarding the only inevitable consequences -- threats on Tyrion's freedom and livelihood.

The closest modern equivalent I can think of is the kidnapping of a mob boss' son. When the mob boss [starts] killing and torturing, he is responsible. But the kidnappers set the mob boss in motion, and bear a portion of the responsibility. After all, the mob boss is acting as a mob boss is expected to react. The cops can cry foul, but not the kidnappers.

This is a not inapt analogy, but you've drawn a false conclusion. The kidnappers are, in fact, not responsible for the acts of the mob boss retaliating. He chooses to kill -- he can go to the police. He can wait it out. He can pay the ransom and hope. If the kidnappers themselves are in danger from the mob boss, he's still culpable for what he orders done to them -- this is why we have laws against vigilanteism. How is he less culpable, then, if he attacks people who are only close to them?

[The Boar of Gore]

Been called soulless a lot, one more time won't hurt. Catelyn should have suffered more...much much more...hope she will this time. God I hate Catelyn

It doesn't hurt because, well, you have no soul.

I say don't hate Catelyn for a couple of blunders like freeing Jaime (capturing Tyrion just doesn't come into it, anyone could have made that mistake). Hate Edmure! He's the one who lost the war for the Starks and Tullies, not Catelyn.

[ltm]

wow Catelyn should have suffered "more"

Let's see, her kid was thrown off a building and crippled, then he's attacked by an assassin, her husband is executed, one daughter disappears the other is held hostage, she receives word that her eight year old paraplegic son and her four year son are left hanging from the walls of Winterfell with their faces skinned off, her father dies, her last son is murdered in front of her eyes then she feels the blade of knife cut into her own windpipe.

What the hell else do you honestly think would possibly be "more"????

The one thing I've thought as I've read over remarks on many websites,

not just this one, is how much some posters reveal of themselves while revealing practically nothing new about whatever they are posting about.

Catelyn's suffering resulted from the horrific fates of family. For her to suffer they had to. I didn't know people hated Bran and Rickon so much. It matters not a fuzzy rat's behind we know they survived, Catelyn never knew that.

And before anyone even starts with the well Catelyn did this and Catelyn did that.....if Jaime Lannister had kept pants up instead of banging his sister where there was even a small to miniscule possibilty

of discovery none of this would have played the way it played. Bran would have had nothing to see, hence no "fall", no assassin, no Catelyn leaving Winterfell, no seizing of Tyrion because of LF indentification.

There may very well have been a War of some sort when Robert was killed (I continue to be amazed Catelyn isn't blamed for that too, along with the change in Westeros weather patterns and possibly of death of the last dragons ) but how it played out would have been very different

Personally I wouldn't wish Catelyn's fate and suffering on my worse enemy.

I felt for Tywin Lannister when he said "they have my son" and no parent ever deserves to watch their kids die in front of them or hear

how they hung naked from a wall with their faces skinned off.

[GSP]

God, who in their right mind can hate Catelyn?

I think most people would be gratefull for a mother who was half as devoted and dutiful. She is

a perfect match for Ned, being every bit as honourable (if not more so, all her children are his children as well, after all). Her every action and motivation is inspired by duty in true Tully fashion.

She makes some mistakes that are plain as day to us with the benefit of hindsight and revealing character POV's, but nothing that makes no sense knowing what she knew at the time. I don't think holding her to a standard of omniscience is particularly fair. I can think of many instances where she shows a wisdom that those around her do not possess.

Her harsh treatment of Jon is unfortunate, but nobody is perfect. Realistically, I don't see too many women in her shoes grinning ear to ear when they lay eyes upon the walking testimony of their husband's lack of faithfullness. Not Jon's fault to be sure, but every time she saw him would have to be rubbing salt in an old wound.

Uncat is a blood maddened revanant obsessed with vengeance and nothing more. Pretty harsh, but so where the events that shaped her. I'm personally glad she's back and butchering Freys as fast as possible. What goes around comes around and I hope she gets them all.

What's the count at?

[Lady Blackfish]

It's time for people to pick a side and draw lines in the sand. This is something I believe in *very* strongly.

Pro-Cat. I understand she's frustrating, but she's also the most rewarding read for me. She's got to be among the top three best written characters in the series (along with Jaime and ... I dunno, wildcard), and to me she's not lacking in sympathetic quality either. For me she kept a lot of heart in the series because she actually mourned, it was through her that I as a reader was able to mourn for Ned. I don't think she was perfect but I don't think she "asked for it" either. I loved that she valued life, I liked the mother-son growing pains in her chapters with Robb, I thought she was great with the Lannister boys, and while I do see where some come from when they say she thinks she's always right (though ... who doesn't?) it also seems to me rebukes herself more than most. Anyway I understand why she isn't some people's favorite but I admit I find some of the arguments against her highly illogical, kind of like the hate exists and the reasons are just being found to justify it. That doesn't go for all criticisms against her, because she deserves some, but the extent of some of what I've read on the board over the years is a little outrageous IMO.

I loathe UnCat and while revenge on the Freys at one point intrigued me, now I don't think it's worth this monstrosity one bit. I hope she goes for good before one of her kids sees her (especially Arya).

[tzanth]

Me Me! add Me! Catelyn was always one of my favorites!

but then im sympathetic towards cersei too.... maybe my soul is too big?

[Poker and Ice]

I really am a defender. I really can't see where any of the Anti-Cat's are coming from. Every single POV character in this series has made mistakes...why do people pick on Catelyn so much more? Jaime and Cersei have most made huge mistakes. Take for instance their incest perhaps. But that doesn't seem to matter. What about Jon banging Ygritte? That certainly wasn't something that needed doing and it was breaking his vows. That doesn't seem to matter. Is it perhaps because these things are to do with sex and Catelyn's mistakes weren't sexual in nature? o.O

I really like Un-Cat. I think she's one of the coolest characters there at the moment and those Freys deserve it *shakes fist*. Bit iffy about what she did to Brienne but from Catelyn's perspective Brienne was a traitor.

Anyway, put me down as a Pro-Catelyn.

[tzanth]

I really am a defender. I really can't see where any of the Anti-Cat's are coming from. Every single POV character in this series has made mistakes...why do people pick on Catelyn so much more? Jaime and Cersei have most made huge mistakes. Take for instance their incest perhaps. But that doesn't seem to matter. What about Jon banging Ygritte? That certainly wasn't something that needed doing and it was breaking his vows. That doesn't seem to matter. Is it perhaps because these things are to do with sex and Catelyn's mistakes weren't sexual in nature? o.O

I really like Un-Cat. I think she's one of the coolest characters there at the moment and those Freys deserve it *shakes fist*. Bit iffy about what she did to Brienne but from Catelyn's perspective Brienne was a traitor.

Anyway, put me down as a Pro-Catelyn.

You may be onto something. Catelyn is a strong, non-sexual, female character. Maybe people are afraid of serious women?

[Lady Blackfish]

You may be onto something. Catelyn is a strong, non-sexual, female character. Maybe people are afraid of serious women?

I'm not sure how it relates to Poker and Ice's post but I myself do love that Martin doesn't really sexualize her, I noticed that from my first read. A lot of female characters' "sell points" often include sex appeal, especially in genre fiction, but I don't think that goes for her and I highly appreciate that. The ones that remark on her looks are mostly her family, people biased to say it to begin with. The only other two instances I can think of is Tyrion makes a remark in AGOT which comes off to me as more of a comment made to impress Bronn &etc, and then one of the lords bannermen in ACOK (I think?) who'd probably have reason to flatter her anyway. It's always useful to the setting somehow, it's never gratuitous.

[oba]

Once you cut through all the long-winded arguments of...ahem, minutae...and account for each person (hopefully) only once, it becomes: 20-20 defenders/haters. The lines have been drawn.

I'm in the pro-Cat camp, always have been.

I like my water wet, my martinis dry, and my highborn ladies widowed, driven insane, zombified, and oh-so-misunderstood.

[▲Jim▲]

I am not for Catelyn. I am not going to get deep in it because many people already have. The fact is her "helping" her family ended up being the downfall of the Starks. Now like some have said she was an important charcter in the story, but oh how sweet it was when she was killed.

[Errant Bard]

I was Cat neutral, now I'm pro-Cat.

I can understand where the haters are coming from, as Cat is indeed quite cold and haughty, is set up as a mild antagonist for the young "hero" (think cinderella type mother-in-law), as a strong antagonist for the lovable witty yet innocent dwarf, and yet manages to be right and win most of the time.

However, Cat never elicited a negative reaction from me once I got past Bran getting shoved out of a window. At first I was disliking her for being pushy and manipulative, falling back on fantasy reflexes where this type of person is always at least borderline evil, but after Bran's fall I could not help but read the story as if the characters were real people, not archetypes (if that makes sense), and Cat's defaults then seemed to give her more depth, highlighting her qualities.

I also could never begrudge someone for mistakes he could only have avoided with hindsight. I enjoy when a character is consistent, even if it means him making grievous errors, in-character.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I've always believed there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who's hearts get torn apart reading Catelyn's plight and those without souls. What kind are you?

The type that finds the very notion of "souls" silly.

Also the type that feels sorry for Cat only in an abstract sense, and really just doesn't like her very much, while at the same time admitting that she's certainly not a terrible person or anything.

[Jaime L]

I loathe UnCat and while revenge on the Freys at one point intrigued me, now I don't think it's worth this monstrosity one bit. I hope she goes for good before one of her kids sees her (especially Arya).

I really don't think people should be held responsible for their actions after they're dead.

I mean, I certainly don't want that standard applied to me.

I like my water wet, my martinis dry, and my highborn ladies widowed, driven insane, zombified, and oh-so-misunderstood.

Well said, gentle sir. You have the soul of a poet.

[Errant Bard]

Oh, by the way: Holy thread ressurection, batman!

[DeliriousEdd]

Oh, by the way: Holy thread ressurection, batman!

Does that make this an unthread?

I'm pro-Cat all the way. She had good reason for most, though not quite all, of her actions. Same for her intentions. I like that Martin wrote a character that can make "good" decisions and not get the fairy tale ending. I like that tragedy can follow "good" decisions and not stupid obvious mistake after stupid obvious mistake (like Theon).