Catelyn Defense Thread

[Amalric]

Hmm, I´m not really a lover or a hater of Catelyn, she is clever but she also seemed, atleast to me, reckless.

Why she inspire such love or hate is beyond me.

Well, those are my sorry ramblings anyway.

[Vagrancy]

I guess I'd consider myself a defender, though I can kind of understand where the haters are coming from. Compared to the likes of Tyrion and Jaime, she's a bit cold and too serious and so she doesn't make up for her mistakes and character flaws by being witty or entertaining. The Jon thing is also an issue; he's popular and one of the few clearly good guys in the series, and her cold treatment of him would antagonise any of his fans.

The thing about Catelyn is that she's probably the most real of any of the characters. She doesn't have a cool fatal flaw, she doesn't have snappy comebacks and she's no genius; she's just a mother and a wife who puts her family first, tries her best to make the right decisions with that in mind, and has it come back and bite her in the ass in the most tragic of ways. And she deals with it all as a real person would; not always with perfect grace and dignity, but you can tell that she is trying very hard to keep it together. She's just a very, very normal woman that has to deal with extraordinary people and extraordinary times. And that's why I like her, and why some of her chapters are among my favourites; she's a well-written, multi-dimensional character that you can't help but relate to, because as loathe as some of us are to admit it, if we were in her shoes, we'd act pretty much the same; not brilliantly, not badly, but just normally and with the best intentions.

[Shewoman]

Thanks, DanteGabriel. And I hadn't even gone through and looked at the dearth of mothers elsewhere in ASOIAF. Thanks for that, Errant Bard. (Theon's mother is alive, but we barely see her.) I think Cersei deserves all the reviling she gets--I'm not saying all moms are good. Spending time in the head of someone who's suffered Catelyn's losses is painful--but it's part of warfare.

[starksure]

If not feeling for some arrogant witch that caused most of her own problems by telling her husband to go to Kingslanding; kidnapping Tyrion; not leaving her king son alone; trusting LittleFinger; and then proceeded to judge almost everyone in the story unfairly (Jon, Brienne, Tyrion), means I have no soul, well, I think I'm okay with that.

Proud to be a Cat-Hater.

And I've always hated undead vigilantes.

[The_BlauerDragon]

If not feeling for some arrogant witch that caused most of her own problems by telling her husband to go to Kingslanding; kidnapping Tyrion; not leaving her king son alone; trusting LittleFinger; and then proceeded to judge almost everyone in the story unfairly (Jon, Brienne, Tyrion), means I have no soul, well, I think I'm okay with that.

Proud to be a Cat-Hater.

And I've always hated undead vigilantes.

I agree with most everything you said there, but um... I really liked Beric Dondarrion, the Lightning Lord and he was an undead vigilante... several times over in fact.

[The Prince]

I think Catelyn's tale is tragic, and I sympathize with her to an extent. But I'll never forgive her for the way she treated Jon, nor the things she did/is doing as Uncat. In other words, I'm in the middle. I guess I'm half a monster

[The_BlauerDragon]

I think Catelyn's tale is tragic, and I sympathize with her to an extent. But I'll never forgive her for the way she treated Jon, nor the things she did/is doing as Uncat. In other words, I'm in the middle. I guess I'm half a monster

Ah, so you're like Jaime... You have a monster half that likes Cat, and runs around throwing children out of tower windows... and then you have a redeeming half that is honorable and hates Cat...

Is that what you meant?

[Jaime L]

I've long been a defender of Catelyn. She's one of the most well-realized female characters in the series, and I think her actions are certainly understandable. Also, she gave Robb more good advice than bad, despite what others might want to believe.

The King O' the board hath spoken. Whether you're a Catelyn lover or hater, I think you have to reclucantly agree that his conclusion is both fair and correct. Infact looking at the situation any differently implies some degree of insanity. That's the way these things go, I suppose.

But thanks for coming out guys. Really. Thank. You. In the end you're all winners in my book. Except...those of you who lost. Yeah, the Haters. God, this is so awkward for you guys!

[DanteGabriel]

I'm not one to quote myself normally, but I felt compelled to put these quotes side by side...

Some of you Catelyn haters manage to express yourselves like rational folks, but a lot of it is just on the level of "that dumb bitch said something mean to Jon."

If not feeling for some arrogant witch that caused most of her own problems by telling her husband to go to Kingslanding; kidnapping Tyrion; not leaving her king son alone; trusting LittleFinger; and then proceeded to judge almost everyone in the story unfairly (Jon, Brienne, Tyrion), means I have no soul, well, I think I'm okay with that.

Proud to be a Cat-Hater.

[Excalibur1027]

Because I really don't feel like going into a long drawn out explanation, let me just say that I love Cat and she's one of the characters that I respect the most in the series.

Now, I can understand the people who say that they don't like her because she's boring or that she only serves as the eyes and ears of Robbs army. Fine. I don't agree with this, but I can at least understand it. What I CANNOT understand, is the person who dislikes her because she sometimes gives bad advice, because she loves her children, and because she doesn't accept her husband's bastard with open arms, etc. while the same person idolizes people like Jaime and the Hound. That I don't get.

You either acknowledge (and sympathize) that a rough life can cause people to do questionable things and induce bad judgment, or you don't. You can't just look at, say, Jaime and Catelyn and pick who your going to feel sorry for and whose plight your going to ignore. That just makes you look like a hypocrite.

[Red Templar]

Not necessarily pro-cat, but I consider myself to be a Catelyn defender. There were some aspects of her personality I disliked - like the way she treated Jon, for instance. But overall she was a very sympathetic character, and always tried to do what she thought was correct. And considering the veritable mountain of doom and crap she had to swallow, she did a pretty good job at holding things together.

[Piper]

Like I said before, other characters make mistakes as well, like Jon banging Ygritte or Jaime and Cersei getting it on. Why nitpick at Catelyn. The only difference I see, and I've said this before, is that Catelyn's problems aren't associated with sex, which seems to be the main thing getting other characters into shit.

Jaime's a bad example. There fans of his on the board, certainly, but there is also a whole host of people that will jump on anyone who tries to defend him. Just scan this thread, and you'll note that by the end it becomes the usual pro-Jaime v. anti-Jaime crowd hashing out why he is or is not a bad person, and I think you'll find the pro-Jaime people outnumbered. Also, he's not only ripped on for his sexual acts, but also for throwing a kid out the window.

Jon's sins are also not only of a sexual nature; there's his trying to desert the Watch and trying to kill Ser Alliser over a quip about his father. Desertion and attempted murder aren't exactly sexual.

Cersei certainly gets ripped on more, I'd say, for her gross stupidity than for her sexual activities. Her arming the church, dismissing Ser Barristan, filling her council with traitors and morons, and general paranoia, meglomania, and delusions are all non-sexual critisism.

So I'd say I don't buy the fact that Catelyn is ripped on more than others because her problems are nonsexual, as all three of the characters you cited have made plenty of nonsexual errors they deserve derision for.

[starksure]

Jaime never claims to be a victim or a hero. Cat does. A lot of people feel sorry for her, but I think she's hypocrite and actions have consequences.

[Lord Mord]

starksure,

Jaime never claims to be a victim or a hero. Cat does.

Could you help me remember when these moments were, exactly?

A lot of people feel sorry for her, but I think she's hypocrite

Nearly everyone's a hypocrite. Could you be more specific?

and actions have consequences.

I don't believe you. There are no such things as consequences. People just do things, and stuff just happens.

[The Prince]

Ah, so you're like Jaime... You have a monster half that likes Cat, and runs around throwing children out of tower windows... and then you have a redeeming half that is honorable and hates Cat...

Is that what you meant?

LOL. That is exactly what I meant. You a mind reader or something?

On another note, I do agree with the poster that said that catelyn is among the most "human" of all the characters. She makes mistakes, she blunders, she acts irrationally, and there are a lot of times that we feel frustrated and even angry with her, both in terms of the moment and in retrospect. But, I gotta admit, love her or hate her, she is indeed a very realistic character.

[The_BlauerDragon]

LOL. That is exactly what I meant. You a mind reader or something?

No. I think you just made your point fairly clear, when you said you were half monster, I didn't see any other way that statement could be interpreted... I was just double checking to make sure I hadn't missed something.

As to my earlier remarks, at least Cersei is honest with herself about most of her evils and schemes and she genuinely cares about her children at some level or another. I don't believe for an instant that Catelyn ever thought of her children as really being anything more than symbols of her greatness and stakes to mark her claim on Ned and Winterfell. She lied to herself about how evil she truly was and about how manipulative and scheming she was and she even convinced herself that she loved Ned, when I think that Cat is the only one that Cat ever loved. She tried to portray herself as the hero facing impossible odds even in her own POV (her own mind), when (in all actuality) she was just an evil, whiney, nagging, "C" who desperately needed to have her throat slit!

[Laton]

Humm I don't hate her character but i hate her point of view. Perhaps because she keeps making decisions that i know at the time to be wrong? Or perhaps because i can't relate to her character at all. Its been a while since i read the books so i can't back my argument up properly - i just remember hating to read her POV chapters.

[DanteGabriel]

As to my earlier remarks, at least Cersei is honest with herself about most of her evils and schemes and she genuinely cares about her children at some level or another. I don't believe for an instant that Catelyn ever thought of her children as really being anything more than symbols of her greatness and stakes to mark her claim on Ned and Winterfell. She lied to herself about how evil she truly was and about how manipulative and scheming she was and she even convinced herself that she loved Ned, when I think that Cat is the only one that Cat ever loved. She tried to portray herself as the hero facing impossible odds even in her own POV (her own mind), when (in all actuality) she was just an evil, whiney, nagging, "C" who desperately needed to have her throat slit!

I disagree with everything you've said here.

Perhaps some citations from the text to prove what a monster Catelyn was?

[The_BlauerDragon]

I disagree with everything you've said here.

Perhaps some citations from the text to prove what a monster Catelyn was?

Um, Just pick any copy of the book and read her POV chapters. Any one of them. I saw it all as a reoccuring theme with her. Maybe I was just picking up a vibe that no-one else keyed in on because I have known women who were just like her. Let's try this part (since it's so close at hand):

“What of Jon Snow, my lord?’ Maester Lewin asked.

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

She grows angry at the meere mention of Jon's name. Some might say this was due to his being a reminder of Ned's infidelity, but she did not mind the fact that Ned cheated... See this next quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on the campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than the husband she barely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to that child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son†for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. . . .

She said she totally understands him needing to get laid, and she expected that he'd take care of any child he fathered in such a way, So, why did it cut so deep? Because it lessened the brilliance of her position as the Lady of Winterfell and because it put a child that was not of her blood in a position to be recognized, at some level or another, as the "Son" of Ned Stark. This also made Jon a threat to the sovereignty of her claim to the inheritence of Winterfell. She did not care so much who would stand to rule after Ned's death, so long as it was someone of HER blood.

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth... like I said, almost everything ever presented in one of her POV's reinforced just how spoiled and rotten and twisted and evil (and above all self centered and elitist) she is... That's why I was never able to sympathize with anything she did, or thought, or felt, or said, or had done to her...

[sio]

Please excuse my late arrival - I would like to declare myself forever a defender. I agree with everything Jaime L. said in the original post - can you honestly say you would have done any better? Blauer Dragon... What? I have no idea whatsoever what you just said. Can you please explain your reasoning here? Nothing in the Catelyn (or other) POVs has ever given me the slightest doubt that Catelyn loved Ned deeply and fiercely cared about her children. Which passages indicate to you that she doesn't?

There are a great many other items that could be brought forth...

Then forth they shall be brought.