Sansa's memory related to Sandor II

[Starbird]

Quote: If we think of all the principal female characters - Asha, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Dany, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, Mya Stone etc- All these girls/women are resisting the patriarchal order that has defined Westerosi society, and for the most part seem quite determined to be independent and live life to how it suits them best.

This is a very good point. I think it has to do with the old order crumbling and the old generation dying at a time of war.

Okay, just to argue for argument's sake, I don't think the war-as-liberator argument works for all of these characters. I'm not sure how old they all are but . . .

Asha - she was 'liberated' before the war. She had her own ship and her own agency long before Ned's execution. Theon's absence (war-caused) could have done that for her but the current war didn't.

Sansa - the war argument works here.

Arya - same as Sansa but she had a very different outlook to begin with. Didn't she flat out tell her father she didn't want to marry some lordling? Of course, she was quite young (8? 9?) so, post-puberty, her thoughts on marriage may change, but, when we met her in GOT, she wasn't towing the company line on female subordination.

Brienne - she would have conformed except she was prevented from doing so by her looks and her size. I'm not sure when she picked up a sword but she did try to play the expected female part for awhile. (Is she in her early 30's?)

Dany - she hasn't been around for the war in Westeros. Her 'liberation' came with the latitude accorded her by Khal Drogo. And her dragons. If those suckers hadn't hatched, she'd be dead already.

Arianne and the Sand Snakes - I don't pay much attention to what's going on in Dorne but they seem more like opportunists for whom the war was a catalyst to action. So, their attitudes weren't formed by the war. If there was no war, they'd be irrelevant.

Mya Stone - She's been alone in the Vale, which has been untouched by war, forever, right? I don't remember. She's a teenager, I guess? I don't remember much of her deal, either, but what is she doing differently now that there's a war on than what she was doing before? As far as I can tell, nothing.

So, while I recognize that war has been great for women a different points in history, I'm not entirely convinced that's the reason behind the spontaneous and independant liberation of some of the main female characters. I suspect, rather, it's GRRM's knowledge of his audience or, perhaps, a nod to current social expectations.

[littlespider]

His telling her about Sansa singing for him is more like, "hey, your sister thinks I'm okay so calm the f*ck down." But, since he's eternally hopeless when communicating with females, it comes out kind of pervy.

Yes, our boy is weak on the social skills.

I found the song-boasting extremely pitiful, though I found most of his stuff in SoS to be pretty pitiful. I mean this is not a guy who can boast of having lots of women swooning all over him, yes? So of course the song is going to be powerfully meaningful for him, and is much more significant than just a sex-euphemism (though I think that's bound up with it as well so I'm not disagreeing with posters who said this). My guess is that he's probably doing a fair bit of praying to the Mutha' on the Quiet Isle.

And on a side-note, I just reread Tyrion's first Shae-shagging chapter in SoS. When he stops and watches the dog fight and makes the joke to the men about the dog who got his face ripped off resembling Sandor Clegane? Harsh, dude. Tyrion's my very favorite character (LOF him) but that was a low moment.

Parallel: yup, Sansa's the original dream and Sandor's the original realist.

I think someone said on another thread somewhere that Sansa is the original Hound fangirl. Thought it was very clever.

[littlebird_]

Oh wow I think you've just answered the burning question of why Sansa misremembers the kiss.

Songs for Sandor are obviously symbolic and special to him, so to have Sansa sing him one is a cherishable memory, even if he colors it some. For Sansa physical affection is equally precious, right? What if that's the reason she put in the kiss. Sansa at this point is still deeply rooted in her own reality, so maybe its because not only did she subconsciously want him to kiss her, but also because kisses are important to her and her world of songs and stories. The Hound sees their moment one way and Sansa another, but they both have to admit it's a night they won't forget.

As to why she continues to misremember the kiss even after her world of songs is completely torn from her: the Hound means something to Sansa, and the white cloak and the "kiss" are the only links to her old life as Sansa Stark and to him. What do you think?

:cheers: I think we got it :D

It is interesting that Sandor also has a similar creating of a fantasy reaction to it. Also I think Sandor is in an ironic way Sansa's way of holding on to the little innocent bird that she was, its one thing stopping her from becoming completely disillusioned and angry

I am going to end up a shipper :lol:

Now how does this become important? Sandor's appearance then has to be critical in her becoming Sansa Stark again, right?

[ICE CROW]

Damn you all to hell lol now i have to go and read that chapter over after reading everything you guys are writing i really feel like im missing some nuance of the scene.

[Starbird]

Yes, our boy is weak on the social skills.

I found the song-boasting extremely pitiful, though I found most of his stuff in SoS to be pretty pitiful. I mean this is not a guy who can boast of having lots of women swooning all over him, yes? So of course the song is going to be powerfully meaningful for him, and is much more significant than just a sex-euphemism (though I think that's bound up with it as well so I'm not disagreeing with posters who said this). My guess is that he's probably doing a fair bit of praying to the Mutha' on the Quiet Isle.

And on a side-note, I just reread Tyrion's first Shae-shagging chapter in SoS. When he stops and watches the dog fight and makes the joke to the men about the dog who got his face ripped off resembling Sandor Clegane? Harsh, dude. Tyrion's my very favorite character (LOF him) but that was a low moment.

I think someone said on another thread somewhere that Sansa is the original Hound fangirl. Thought it was very clever.

I think the 'song' was a euphemism for sex, up until the time she started singing. In a way, it could also be that, every time he asked her for the song prior to the BBW, he was kind of bugging her because he liked her and wanted to know if she liked him, too. He should've just pulled her pigtails.

IIRC, there were lots of random Hound references scattered throughout ASOS and AFFC. It's like GRRM didn't want us to forget out him. (As if!)

Oh, I wish I'd thought of that! (Sansa as the original Hound fangirl.)

[Alexia]

I found the song-boasting extremely pitiful, though I found most of his stuff in SoS to be pretty pitiful. I mean this is not a guy who can boast of having lots of women swooning all over him, yes? So of course the song is going to be powerfully meaningful for him, and is much more significant than just a sex-euphemism (though I think that's bound up with it as well so I'm not disagreeing with posters who said this).

She was praying when she sang it though. Praying to the gods to save him, and to save herself from him. I think that was extremely significant for him, more so than Florian and Jonquil (what he originally asked for) would have been. The fact that she was absolutely terrified of him in a moment when he was offering to take her away. The fact that she prayed for him, and touched his face, after his misbehavior. It is a really fascinating moment.

[Starbird]

Damn you all to hell lol now i have to go and read that chapter over after reading everything you guys are writing i really feel like im missing some nuance of the scene.

Ice Crow, I quoted the pertinent passage back on the old thread, if that's quicker for you. Somewhere in the last 15 pages, I'd guess.

[Starbird]

She was praying when she sang it though. Praying to the gods to save him, and to save herself from him. I think that was extremely significant for him, more so than Florian and Jonquil (what he originally asked for) would have been. The fact that she was absolutely terrified of him in a moment when he was offering to take her away. The fact that she prayed for him, and touched his face, after his misbehavior. It is a really fascinating moment.

Agreed. Also, she suggested Florian and Jonquil when he first said he wanted a song, and he dismissed it as typical knights-and-ladies garbage.

[Alexia]

Agreed. Also, she suggested Florian and Jonquil when he first said he wanted a song, and he dismissed it as typical knights-and-ladies garbage.

But he was teasing her to start with when he asked for that song, and asked for some song about knights and fair maids. :)

[littlebird_]

Okay, just to argue for argument's sake, I don't think the war-as-liberator argument works for all of these characters. I'm not sure how old they all are but . . .

So, while I recognize that war has been great for women a different points in history, I'm not entirely convinced that's the reason behind the spontaneous and independant liberation of some of the main female characters. I suspect, rather, it's GRRM's knowledge of his audience or, perhaps, a nod to current social expectations.

I don't think its directly a liberator of women thing, my original thought is that it is something that liberates these characters from the identities and limitations of their houses, statuses in society and gives them a new environment to grow in. It is not just the female characters but also the male ones. The series is based on a theme of identity, who are you, how much of your destiny is foretold by your house, your status in society (as a high born and as a woman) and all these characters get to make choices or are limited in certain ways before the war that they no longer are after the war. This is more true of the younger characters who all of them go through identity crises. It is about trying to forge new identities based on their new experiences (which they would not have had without the war) but also keeping some parts of the old one.

So for example even in the case of Asha war becomes an enabling factor in proving her worth or for Brienne it becomes something of a purpose to save the Stark girls, a purpose she probably would have lacked and it becomes an integral part of who she becomes. There is also the transition for many (of course I have not elaborated enough on these ideas to have examples for everyone yet) but Jaime turns from warrior to peacemaker, Tyrion from loyal Lannister to kinslayer, Arya from a child to a killer and all these changes affect how they define themselves and its more independent of family traditions and class considerations than it was before the war. I think the dynamics here have a lot to do with the old older and the old guard crumbling down and the new generation trying to define themselves without the influence of the old guard but with their experiences of war.

[littlespider]

She was praying when she sang it though. Praying to the gods to save him, and to save herself from him. I think that was extremely significant for him, more so than Florian and Jonquil (what he originally asked for) would have been. The fact that she was absolutely terrified of him in a moment when he was offering to take her away. The fact that she prayed for him, and touched his face, after his misbehavior. It is a really fascinating moment.

Exactly. And I think this is why it's so significant for him.

And I have to wonder if the religious aspect of the song and her prayers for him are part of what explains what appears to be his religious conversion. As in, maybe he's not only on the Quiet Isle because the Elder Brother saved his life when he was dying (though this is entirely possible), but he's also there because he actually listened to Sansa's song and internalized it.

Though if he comes back all Lancel'd, I'll be pizz-issed. I doubt this will happen, though; I think the failed attempt to geld Stranger indicates this.

[Alexia]

Brienne - she would have conformed except she was prevented from doing so by her looks and her size. I'm not sure when she picked up a sword but she did try to play the expected female part for awhile. (Is she in her early 30's?)

Brienne is more like 19 or so. I disagree that she would have conformed, she is very much a noncorformist.

Arianne and the Sand Snakes are already empowered, by both Dornish culture and by Prince Oberyn. The war isn't really relevant to empowering them but they do take an active role in participating in the politics of their society, because that is how the Dornish do things.

[littlebird_]

And I have to wonder if the religious aspect of the song and her prayers for him are part of what explains what appears to be his religious conversion. As in, maybe he's not only on the Quiet Isle because the Elder Brother saved his life when he was dying (though this is entirely possible), but he's also there because he actually listened to Sansa's song and internalized it.

This is a good point, might be.

I think it would be hilarious if he came back all calm and told Sansa 'now everyone has some good in them, believe in the gods and they will give justice' and Sansa is like 'RAWR I need vengeance'

though I highly doubt it :lol:

[ICE CROW]

i was just re-reading some stuff and came across this line that when i read it originally didn't mean anything to me but as we know means the world later

“It’s very lovely,” Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

“Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father.” Dontos leaned close and

kissed her again. “It’s home.”

If only she had been able to read between the lines Dontos right then and there told her what it was without saying it.

[FleetFox]

WHOA...this thread has grown!!! I haven't had the chance to read all the posts, so I don't know if this theory has been put out there yet...

What if the misremembered kiss is just that, but it has an impact to a situation in the future for Sansa? Right now, no-one knows that Sansa and Sandor have had any interaction with each other in KL. The first time time the kiss is mentioned, she is thinking how silly and young the other girls are. Playing at kissing with each other, but she's kissed THE HOUND! Real man and dangerous too. If only those other silly girls knew....then the memory keeps coming up(like when Sweeetrobin kisses her and it's almost a like she's comparing)and now its acquired more detail and she's thinking about him in her bed instead of Tyrion.

So, what I'm trying to say is that, yes the memory, even though it's false belong to Sansa and it's her BIG secret. He's one of the most dangerous swords in Westeros and to other people, the most unlikely guy to have gotten a kiss(taking a favour from a lady,just like one of those knights he hates so much) from her. How would others react to this? What if she reveals this to someone in the future, and from the way she keeps adding to the memory it has grown into something even more by then? It could be completely crackpot....

[brashcandy]

I don't think its directly a liberator of women thing, my original thought is that it is something that liberates these characters from the identities and limitations of their houses, statuses in society and gives them a new environment to grow in. It is not just the female characters but also the male ones. The series is based on a theme of identity, who are you, how much of your destiny is foretold by your house, your status in society (as a high born and as a woman) and all these characters get to make choices or are limited in certain ways before the war that they no longer are after the war. This is more true of the younger characters who all of them go through identity crises. It is about trying to forge new identities based on their new experiences (which they would not have had without the war) but also keeping some parts of the old one.

So for example even in the case of Asha war becomes an enabling factor in proving her worth or for Brienne it becomes something of a purpose to save the Stark girls, a purpose she probably would have lacked and it becomes an integral part of who she becomes. There is also the transition for many (of course I have not elaborated enough on these ideas to have examples for everyone yet) but Jaime turns from warrior to peacemaker, Tyrion from loyal Lannister to kinslayer, Arya from a child to a killer and all these changes affect how they define themselves and its more independent of family traditions and class considerations than it was before the war. I think the dynamics here have a lot to do with the old older and the old guard crumbling down and the new generation trying to define themselves without the influence of the old guard but with their experiences of war.

Hello folks! Glad to see that the new old thread is up and running nicely, and that the theories and discussions are still coming fast and furious! :) I haven't posted on this new world order thing that I mentioned in the last thread, because there has been so much fruitful and enlightening viewpoints about it that any additional thoughts I had would have been a bit superfluous.

I just wanted to add here Littlebird, that I think you summed up what I was originally thinking and grasping to bring forth quite wonderfully. The whole concept of this generation being allowed to do things through the advent of the war is quite compelling and as you pointed out LB, it applies to both men and women.

You've already mentioned Jaime and Tyrion, and added to that we have men like Jon Snow, Sam Tarly, and Bran Stark who are now forging new identities that they would not have previously been able to imagine or possess. It is like everyone is being given a chance to make a radical impact in this new environment, and people that cling to the old ways or fail to adapt have to die out.

The old guard is either completely dead, dying or slowly decaying. All the principal players from Robert's Rebellion have mostly perished or are on their way out, and their children, instead of carrying on with the politics of old, have the chance to rework the society in profound and radical ways. It's about their identities and by extension the identity of the society around them. Look at what Jon is trying to do at the Wall, or the fact that Robb married for love and not duty. Dany aspired to end the slave trade, Brienne is an actual knight on a quest, Arianne wanted to seat Mrycella on the Iron Throne, and Sansa may decide that weak and sickly boys don't in fact deserve to die.

I had mentioned on another thread how I loved the fact that GRRM was bastardizing Westerosi society - and I think it is relevant to the argument here. The entire Stark family, not simply Jon Snow, all have to survive as orphans in a world without the protection of their Stark heritage, and some are actually living as bastards such as Sansa. We know the case with Cersei's children etc etc. What happens when all you have ever known or depended on is taken away from you? Well you adapt and you forge another identity/purpose to sustain you, one that might actually ennoble you in the end as well.

[ICE CROW]

Everyone has talked alot about how Sansa misremember's the kiss that did or didn't happen. I think its even more amazing how i swore they had actually kissed that night as well, i even stated in an earlier comment how i remembered the hound telling arya he took a kiss as well as the song. But after re reading several chapters right now that night during the siege no actually physical kiss that we can see or read about. I just read all 5 books last month a ran them one after the other and i guess the speed in which i processed all the info just confused some facts for me.

Im just putting this out there cus like many of you have said her misremembering could be because of fast it all happened in a traumatic situation. When were forced to remember something that happens split second quickly and reflect on it quickly can we always trust our own memories.

[Été]

So, what I'm trying to say is that, yes the memory, even though it's false belong to Sansa and it's her BIG secret. He's one of the most dangerous swords in Westeros and to other people, the most unlikely guy to have gotten a kiss(taking a favour from a lady,just like one of those knights he hates so much) from her. How would others react to this? What if she reveals this to someone in the future, and from the way she keeps adding to the memory it has grown into something even more by then? It could be completely crackpot....

Sansa's big secret is less the kiss and more that she can take control in her own love life. The poor girl is passed from man to man (Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Harry) essentially as a sex object. It's a source of some strength that her first kiss was not part of anyone's schemes or plans but was something she wanted for herself. She imagines it in the first place because she kinda digs the Hound, but even by AFfC she hasn't really noticed that yet.

The UnKiss is her proof that she has power of her own, so she holds on tight to that memory - which makes it a bit of a shame it didn't actually happen.

[Alexia]

Sansa's big secret is less the kiss and more that she can take control in her own love life. The poor girl is passed from man to man (Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Harry) essentially as a sex object. It's a source of some strength that her first kiss was not part of anyone's schemes or plans but was something she wanted for herself. She imagines it in the first place because she kinda digs the Hound, but even by AFfC she hasn't really noticed that yet.

The UnKiss is her proof that she has power of her own, so she holds on tight to that memory - which makes it a bit of a shame it didn't actually happen.

That is the reason why I love the kiss and this particular subplot to begin with. But you know, if it had happened, I don't think Sansa would have been quite so into it. It would have been frightening, and another violation of her person, yet another thing that someone took from her without her consent. But the fact that it is her fantasy makes it more compelling, I think.

[brashcandy]

That is the reason why I love the kiss and this particular subplot to begin with. But you know, if it had happened, I don't think Sansa would have been quite so into it. It would have been frightening, and another violation of her person, yet another thing that someone took from her without her consent. But the fact that it is her fantasy makes it more compelling, I think.

Definitely, the unkiss is more powerful because it didn't happen. So Sansa can attach no negative memories to it, and once again the Hound escapes censure after scaring the daylights out of her :) And kudos to this thread, btw, even though the mismemory has sent us all a little crazy, I haven't seen any real crazy crackpot theories floating around! We've all genuinely tried to apply logic and reasoning to this! Although if this makes us more or less crazy I don't know :)