Sansa's memory related to Sandor II

[Été]

Hello! First post, because I just had to jump in on this thread. I've been reading the forum for the last year after finally reading the series, and The Hound is my favorite character, of course. I think I've read all the posts in this thread, and at 5:00 am I awoke with the following epiphany:

I think that the reason Sansa misremembers the kiss is because she is remembering Sandor's fantasy of the moment, because she is already warging him subconsciously. My evidence is that 1)we know all the Stark kids are wargs to some degree, 2)they don't all understand what is happening when they first begin to warg, and 3)it is possible to warg to another human, even without intending to. Also, Sandor states to Arya that he meant to violate Sansa, which I think means he went to her room with that intention, but then she is able to subconsciously influence his emotions and actions. This had probably been happening since Lady was killed, as there are other interactions between the two that indicate there is a warg-like connection, such as when he stops her from pushing Joffrey off the edge, and when he saves her from the riot mob. Anyone else think this is plausible?

Plausible, yes. Likely? Who knows. Some people also think she warged the dog she slept next to at the Fingers.

In ADWD we see that it takes a lot of effort to warg a person, even for a moment, because it's such a massive violation of personal space. Even if the Hound was willing, I don't think Sansa would be able to warg him without realising it herself.

It's not clear how far wargs are able to influence people without actually invading their minds - all of the Stark kids seem to have a certain amount of natural charisma and charm, which I think may be linked to their latent (or otherwise) warg powers. :ninja: As for Sansa and the Hound, I tend to think he took pity on her after Joff killed Ned, and sort of volunteered to be her surrogate direwolf. (Cos he wants her babies.) ^_^

[littlespider]

The Wargmaster Sansa theory eventually involved Viserion, Littlefinger-toast, Sandor crapping trou (sorry fangirls) after getting literally mindfucked, Ned being warged by

Bloodraven

, Little Lord Robert getting warged, bangin' it out with Howland Reed, and flirtin' with Old Frey.

Oh, and the One Ring.

[brashcandy]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

This is the most perfect post I have ever seen, Sansa the Wargmaster will rule all of Westeros, it is known.

To me this actually makes a lot of sense for some reason :lol: so she wargs into him and experiences his emotions and constructs the kiss based on what he wanted, the problem here is if she's constructing things on what he wanted there would have been more than a kiss involved :lol:

Yes!! It actuallly makes a great deal of sense! Seriously... it's so crazy it could actually be true!

[littlebird_]

It's not clear how far wargs are able to influence people without actually invading their minds - all of the Stark kids seem to have a certain amount of natural charisma and charm, which I think may be linked to their latent (or otherwise) warg powers. :ninja: As for Sansa and the Hound, I tend to think he took pity on her after Joff killed Ned, and sort of volunteered to be her surrogate direwolf. (Cos he wants her babies.) ^_^

CRACKPOT THEORY ALERT - could it be that because she lost Lady her latent skills with respect to warging can not develop through a wolf so they develop through natural charisma and charm and she doesn't exactly warg people but she can connect with them better so she connects with Sandor a lot :lol: but maybe if we think about it we can think of other instances when she convinces someone of something through a touch or something ....

or you know she warged GRRM and is writing the whole series :lol:

Yes!! It actuallly makes a great deal of sense! Seriously... it's so crazy it could actually be true!

Exactly :D

[littlespider]

Wargmaster Sansa thread, y'all:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55576-adwd-spoilers-wargmaster-sansa-a-crackpot-theory/

I think the story should be continued, but that's just me.

[brashcandy]

CRACKPOT THEORY ALERT - could it be that because she lost Lady her latent skills with respect to warging can not develop through a wolf so they develop through natural charisma and charm and she doesn't exactly warg people but she can connect with them better so she connects with Sandor a lot :lol: but maybe if we think about it we can think of other instances when she convinces someone of something through a touch or something ....

or you know she warged GRRM and is writing the whole series :lol:

Exactly :D

Littlebird, you're a genius. :)

And just to match you, here's my crackpot:

Maybe Sandor can warg too... maybe Sandor isn't that lame gravedigger after all. Remember the old dog that the gravedigger was patting? The old dog that was travelling with Brienne who belonged to the old priest. That was Sandor! All this time he's been searching for Sansa too! Hell, he may already be in the Vale! :lmao:

[FacelessGirl]

Littlebird, you're a genius. :)

And just to match you, here's my crackpot:

Maybe Sandor can warg too... maybe Sandor isn't that lame gravedigger after all. Remember the old dog that the gravedigger was patting? The old dog that was travelling with Brienne who belonged to the old priest. That was Sandor! All this time he's been searching for Sansa too! Hell, he may already be in the Vale! :lmao:

I LOVE IT!!! :D

[littlespider]

Littlebird, you're a genius. :)

And just to match you, here's my crackpot:

Maybe Sandor can warg too... maybe Sandor isn't that lame gravedigger after all. Remember the old dog that the gravedigger was patting? The old dog that was travelling with Brienne who belonged to the old priest. That was Sandor! All this time he's been searching for Sansa too! Hell, he may already be in the Vale! :lmao:

I approve this crackpot. :cheers: They warged the moment he scratched Dog's ears.

Now the Elder Brother is wondering why the scar-faced Gravedigger is going around peeing on trees and humping people's legs.

[FacelessGirl]

I approve this crackpot. :cheers: They warged the moment he scratched Dog's ears.

Now the Elder Brother is wondering why the scar-faced Gravedigger is going around peeing on trees and humping people's legs.

:lmao:

[brashcandy]

I approve this crackpot. :cheers: They warged the moment he scratched Dog's ears.

Now the Elder Brother is wondering why the scar-faced Gravedigger is going around peeing on trees and humping people's legs.

Sheer Brilliance!!!!

[littlespider]

And the soldiers in the Vale will soon start wondering why this random dog is slurping from their ale skins and then passing out belly up in fields.

(I say this as an owner of a beer-loving dog. He has been known to slurp loudly out of pint glasses if we aren't careful; it ain't pretty.)

[brashcandy]

And the soldiers in the Vale will soon start wondering why this random dog is slurping from their ale skins and then passing out belly up in fields.

(I say this as an owner of a beer-loving dog. He has been known to slurp loudly out of pint glasses if we aren't careful; it ain't pretty.)

Your dog sounds really really coool :laugh:

[littlespider]

Your dog sounds really really coool :laugh:

He is quite terrible and ferocious, and would be just as dysfunctional a drunk if we let him. We occasionally refer to him as the Hound, though he is significantly smaller (as in, less than 20 lbs.).

[ICE CROW]

Anyone ever consider mabye old Sansa been sippin on the old milk of the poppy and she can't hold her buzz so she be having faulty memories.

[Suzette]

Oh look it's home away from home

[Suzette]

Do you think come S2 we will have an answer? I mean, how the scene plays out on screen is what GRRM really meant? Or.... I have no idea why she thinks she changes the memory of that interaction.... Cause it's a kinda an important scene. Like maybe the most important scene in CoK.... IMHO

[Starbird]

:lol: Sansa actually overhears women at a washing well though, so I it's probably their actual day job... I do think it's interesting that Joff says, “He’s my mother’s dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does.” I wonder how old Joffrey was when the Hound was assigned to him.

Ick, really? I don't remember that at all. I just can't see Cersei and Sandor spending time together in any capacity. Joffrey seems to be at ease bossing him around but I suppose that could come from years of practice. Dunno. I can't shake that "Joffrey always seemed fond of the man" reference. Cersei choosing someone she doesn't know well to guard her favorite child doesn't fit in with her character but I can't picture what that job interview must've been like.

Does Tommen have a sworn shield? Certainly no one on the KG, right?

[Été]

Ick, really? I don't remember that at all. I just can't see Cersei and Sandor spending time together in any capacity. Joffrey seems to be at ease bossing him around but I suppose that could come from years of practice. Dunno. I can't shake that "Joffrey always seemed fond of the man" reference. Cersei choosing someone she doesn't know well to guard her favorite child doesn't fit in with her character but I can't picture what that job interview must've been like.

Does Tommen have a sworn shield? Certainly no one on the KG, right?

I imagine Cersei attached the Hound to him as a personal bodyguard who was A. 100% focussed on Joff, and B. loyal to the Lannisters, not the crown. As Crown Prince, Joffrey would have been entitled to protection by the Kingsguard, but only if Robert ordered it. It doesn't sound like Tommen has ever had his own sworn shield, but now he's king, technically he has the entire Kingsguard.

What I'm curious about is how the Hound went from being a generic Lannister man-at-arms to being "Cersei's dog", answerable directly to her. He's not really motivated by sex, gold or power like Lancel or the Kettleblacks are, so while I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility that Cersei might have tried to ensnare him with flirting, I don't think it would have been necessary for her to do so. He was already loyal to the Lannisters. I think Cersei just sees Sandor as an extremely capable employee, and I would be absolutely gobsmacked if those two had a history.

[Starbird]

I imagine Cersei attached the Hound to him as a personal bodyguard who was A. 100% focussed on Joff, and B. loyal to the Lannisters, not the crown. As Crown Prince, Joffrey would have been entitled to protection by the Kingsguard, but only if Robert ordered it. It doesn't sound like Tommen has ever had his own sworn shield, but now he's king, technically he has the entire Kingsguard.

What I'm curious about is how the Hound went from being a generic Lannister man-at-arms to being "Cersei's dog", answerable directly to her. He's not really motivated by sex, gold or power like Lancel or the Kettleblacks are, so while I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility that Cersei might have tried to ensnare him with flirting, I don't think it would have been necessary for her to do so. He was already loyal to the Lannisters. I think Cersei just sees Sandor as an extremely capable employee, and I would be absolutely gobsmacked if those two had a history.

I agree 100%. I would imagine the Hound caught Cersei's notice due to his size and skill. By the time Joffrey was born, he would have been on the Lannister payroll for at least 10 years or so, right? So he wasn't a wild card in terms of reliability. Given Cersei's suspicious nature, this was probably an easy call for her.

As for how he became answerable to her, I would suggest that no one had any objections to the Hound getting the job. Robert wouldn't have interfered unless he saw it as a major issue. Tywin had no cause to object. Jaime probably wasn't around much. Things were relatively stable in the land. So the Hound ended up reporting to Cersei. (Although I can't even picture the two of them having a conversation.)

[A Maidens Fantasy]

I imagine Cersei attached the Hound to him as a personal bodyguard who was A. 100% focussed on Joff, and B. loyal to the Lannisters, not the crown. As Crown Prince, Joffrey would have been entitled to protection by the Kingsguard, but only if Robert ordered it. It doesn't sound like Tommen has ever had his own sworn shield, but now he's king, technically he has the entire Kingsguard.

What I'm curious about is how the Hound went from being a generic Lannister man-at-arms to being "Cersei's dog", answerable directly to her. He's not really motivated by sex, gold or power like Lancel or the Kettleblacks are, so while I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility that Cersei might have tried to ensnare him with flirting, I don't think it would have been necessary for her to do so. He was already loyal to the Lannisters. I think Cersei just sees Sandor as an extremely capable employee, and I would be absolutely gobsmacked if those two had a history.

Argh, don't even suggest that they could have had a history! As for how he ended up as Cerseis sworn sword in the first place, I'd go with the simple explanation: He is the best swordsman ever, and Cersei is the Queen. Ergo, Tywin assigns him for her protection. Cersei is completely irrational in her love for Joffrey (even when you compare it with her attitude towards her other children) so of course Joffrey gets The Hound as soon as he is old enough to warrant his own bodyguard.