Redemption - Only for Guys?

[Urien the Ragged]

Redemption - only for guys?

When people trash G.R.R.M for his Stark-and-reader-torturing ways, they often neglect that ASOIAF does indeed contain highly satisfying elements for readers: G.R.R.M might not be big on fluff, and Happily Ever After or even poetic justice, but he's really good with redemption character arcs, see Jaime, the Hound, and now

even Theon

. We haven't seen anything compareable with any of the female characters so far however and I really hope that's going to be remedied soon.

Considering that many of the female characters are quite reviled by the fan base, I'd be interested in your opinion about their redeemability. Cersei/Melisandre/Catelyn/Dany/Sansa/Arya-Haters represent! Is there anything these gals could do to redeem themselves à la Jaime?

What could be the potential catalyst for female redemption? Would the mechanics for female redemption differ from the male template? (So far it seems to be: gut-wrenching ordeal + humiliation + opportunity to stand up for less jaded, purer, more innocent character designed to re-awaken nobler instincts). The Hound gets Sansa, Jaime gets Brienne,

Theon gets Jeyne Poole and Tyrion gets Penny

- Cersei has already had her ordeal and her humiliation, I think she's overdue for her very own morality pet!

Could you imagine any of the male characters we've encountered so far as morality pets for the female villains? (I would love Jon or Davos as morality pets for Melisandre.) If not, why not?

GRRM has only given redemption to characters with redeeming qualities. Cersei has none. Even the Hound is sympathetic in the fact that he has some honor.

[Raksha the Demon]

Very true Raksha. In fact, I think GRRM is setting up the Hound to be redeemed by the very act of killing his brother. He's been reborn, but maybe it is only through killing Ungregor that he will complete the final stage of that redemption.

This is why I mentioned earlier that Sansa will decide whether or when she has to atone and avenge. Both are mixed up in her arc I think. I'm not sure if Sansa has ever quite dealt with her actions in KL that may have led to her father's death. (neither am i blaming her, just to be clear) But has she ever psychologically dealt with being fooled by the Lannisters, betrayed by Joffrey, beaten by the Kingsguard, and married to Tyrion. I always find it humorous that Arya's prayers at night include Cersei and Joffrey (before he died) etc. I'm like, girl, get your own enemies, those ones are Sansa's.

So she has to atone for what may be her own perceived complicity in her father's demise, also the fact that she doesn't reveal the truth about Lysa's death. She also has to avenge the hurt done to her and her family. All signs point to Littlefinger. So both Sansa and the hound may complete their redemption through revenge.

It seems like a simple pattern when you think about it:

Awful human being who made others suffer: redemption complete through self sacrifice - see Theon, Jaime, Cersei(?) and more to come maybe

Good human being who has suffered by awful people - redemption complete through vengeance - see Catelyn, Sansa(?), The Hound (?)

It is true that Sansa has not revealed much repentance in her inner thoughts about her role in her father's death. Ned would have been executed whether or not Sansa had gone to Cersei; he had already revealed his plans to the queen and no way was she going to let him publicly de-legitimize her children and brand her an adulterous. But Ned might have been able to send the girls and some of his retainers back to Winterfell if Sansa hadn't revealed when and how the boat was leaving with all Starks but Ned aboard. I'm not so sure; I think Cersei would have had some eyes following Sansa at least...The impression I have is that Sansa herself does not exactly understand what her father knew, and what he did; and what exactly he did to be condemned, though she loved him and does not think he would have consciously done wrong (remember she said he had been ill, any treason he spoke was because he did not know what he was saying). And she spent over a year running around saying my-father-and-brother-are-traitors in King's Landing as a sort of verbal protective camouflage (and possibly because Joffrey had her beaten whenever she said differently). Sansa might not have sorted out her own feelings about Ned Stark's supposed treachery, let alone her role in his downfall.

Of course, during the time that Sansa was a hostage, she was facing danger and distrust and enemies and exploitation all around her. To sit around bemoaning her past actions could have weakened her further; Sansa seems to have concentrated on presenting a picture of a non-threatening loyal and courteous young lady to the Lannister court. We know that after Ned's death, Sansa was crying in her room, refusing to eat, contemplating suicide, not really wanting to move; it could be that she grappled with the issue of her own culpability then, and later could not bear to think about it.

I would like Sansa to tell Arya about it, and apologize to her, some day. She was pretty mean to her younger sister; and lied about the incident with Joffrey and Mycah. Not sure we'll ever see that conversation, though.

I don't think Sansa has ever dealt with the emotional suffering she endured. People in Westeros don't seem to have much time for dealing with PTSD these days. I have the impression Sansa feels like she has put the past behind her and is now trying to reinvent herself as a different person, Alayne. And she's putting a lot of mental energy into being Alayne, staying Alayne, keeping on her toes and hiding Sansa, and dealing with a protector who is alternately teaching her, discussing some rather disturbing projects and plans, and trying to seduce her.

Sansa is at a difficult time in her moral evolution. She can no longer be excused some moral dilemmas because of being a child; she is still young, but old enough in Westerosi culture to understand more than she did two years before. And her making allowances for the drugging of Robert with sweetsleep is a bit disturbing - is it a mental attempt to be more like Littlefinger, be more worldly-wise, or is she sliding down the slippery Littlefingerish morality slope?

I do think that Sansa will choose to have a direct part in Littlefinger's fall when she figures out that he was behind much of the fall of her family, whether she herself poisons him or announces his perfidy to the world or gives him a shove out the Moon Door herself.

Though I think Littlefinger might escape, all his plans in ruins. He might then run into a certain Lady Stoneheart and possibly go mad (which would be justice) or end up running a two-bit brothel in Braavos, dreaming about the girl who got away...

I don't think Sansa has a lot of repenting to do, her sins (have been) comparatively minor when one considers what others have done. But I hope that one day she will acknowledge, to Arya, or even just herself, that she made mistakes with very damaging consequences. I blame her a lot less for lying about Lysa's death. Lysa was doing her best to kill Sansa and Marillion was helping her do it by concealing Sansa's screams with his singing (not to mention trying to rape her on an earlier occasion). I might have applauded their deaths if I had been in her shoes, or at least not felt morally conflicted about concealing my protector's part in it. Also, Sansa is totally dependent on Littlefinger, and had nowhere else to go. Subtleties like the fact that Littlefinger was saving his own skin first by shoving Lysa out the Moon Door and Sansa's skin second - due to Lysa unraveling and babbling things about Jon Arryn's death that could incriminate Littlefinger - seem to have escaped the terrified Sansa, at least at that point. She might well remember them later.

[Zar Lannister]

Robert Arryn is an awful little sadistic person who needs to die before he has any power. If she redeems herself, let it be by offing him and Littlefinger.

I'm not sure that turning Sansa into a child murderer would be a redeemable quality.

As for Melissandre, well... I still have reading to do to understand her.

[brashcandy]

And her making allowances for the drugging of Robert with sweetsleep is a bit disturbing - is it a mental attempt to be more like Littlefinger, be more worldly-wise, or is she sliding down the slippery Littlefingerish morality slope?

I do think that Sansa will choose to have a direct part in Littlefinger's fall when she figures out that he was behind much of the fall of her family, whether she herself poisons him or announces his perfidy to the world or gives him a shove out the Moon Door herself.

Though I think Littlefinger might escape, all his plans in ruins. He might then run into a certain Lady Stoneheart and possibly go mad (which would be justice) or end up running a two-bit brothel in Braavos, dreaming about the girl who got away...

I agree that Sansa doesn't have a lot to be repentant for and I think she has already been redeemed in the reader's eyes due to her continual maturity and awareness of the treachery of persons like Joffrey and Cersei. I too am disturbed that she seems to be going along with Sweetrobin's drugging, but I do think she will wake up in TWOW and save him. This would a nice redemption for her in the narrative as well.

I can see GRRM going in no other direction than having Sansa get rid of LF. If Sandor has to kill his brother to silence his last demon, then Sansa has to kill LF or make him a non player. He is her demon and if she is ever to fully avenge her family, he needs to be punished.

:) It would be nice for him to run in Lady Stoneheart. Such fitting justice.

[Brienne the Beauty]

GRRM has only given redemption to characters with redeeming qualities. Cersei has none.

Cersei's only redeeming feature is her love for her children, and even that's twisted. I suspect she will pay for her crimes by dying childless, and that's going to be a bittersweet punishment in the eyes of the reader, considering that Tommen and Myrcella are perfectly nice kids.

[NotSoSilentSister]

GRRM has only given redemption to characters with redeeming qualities. Cersei has none. Even the Hound is sympathetic in the fact that he has some honor.

which prompts my question: why are redeeming qualities only given to male villains?

[AsoiafFTW!]

Cersei's only redeeming feature is her love for her children, and even that's twisted. I suspect she will pay for her crimes by dying childless, and that's going to be a bittersweet punishment in the eyes of the reader, considering that Tommen and Myrcella are perfectly nice kids.

for would be much more bitter than sweet, tommen and myrcella are (at least for now) just normal kids their mother is an evil bitch for sure, but is not their fault.

catelyn: was a bitch (towards jon), but she loved her kids (sure she let go jaime and that in turn cause a shitstorm leaving their children in the middle of it). no really in need of redemption i hate her guts, but she can't give me back my king so case closed.

lady stoneheart: is a effin' revenge driven zombie, no woman no man, just a zombie.

[brashcandy]

Hey NSSS - I'm glad you brought this topic back! I feel like a little baby going over those posts I made nearly a year ago :)

Anyways, so we hashed out in this thread the whole issue of morality pets, and whether females go through a rebirth type redemption instead of depending on male characters and whether or not this works for a kind of greater empowerment or not. But I just re-read your OP and I do think it's worth exploring again just why females don't get the morality pets, which readers appear to value as a more "obvious" mode of redemption, whereas when Dany emerges from her ordeal in the wilderness, so many people still believe that she's going to get worse. And doesn't this contribute then to the negative view about female characters who refuse to just accept the "poor men" who want to use them as morality pets in a way? I'm thinking here of Dany/Jorah and Sansa/Tyrion. Instead of valuing the women's right to make decisions and to choose their own partners, the sympathy from readers remains with the men who only want to be love/accepted/forgiven or what have you.

[Field of Asphodel]

If you believe that Arya and Sansa are on a hero's journey type arc like I do then presently they're deep in that "being tempted by the dark side" stage. Arya, who believes she's alone in the world and has seen and suffered so much, is presently trying to find a new home for herself with a bunch of amoral assassins. As a child, she was a conscientious person who cared deeply when Mycah was brutally cut down, she was her father's daughter...surrendering her conscience would be the death of her character as we know her. (Yes, I'm aware she started on this path before arriving at Braavos, but that's kind of beside the point.) She doesn't struggle with killing much now, but she does struggle. She doesn't have a morality pet per se, though you could say Needle is a morality pet by proxy for her as it reminds her of Jon.

Sansa too is being tempted by the dark side. It's only too easy to leave behind that frightened friendless orphan girl who was Sansa Stark and to be Alayne Stone. All she has to do is put her conscience, her natural protective instincts and kindness aside...Though so far Alayne's been complicit in Sweetrobin's poisoning, I think she'll break free from the chains at a crucial moment. So Sweetrobin is her morality pet, the little helpless thing only she can protect.

[Candor]

Granted this is a very tenuous suggestion but I'm thinking that Theon might be getting set up to be a morality puppet for his sister Asha. She hasn't done what other villains has, but she is part of a brutal culture, and that might be considered enough of a blight on the ethics scale to atone for. I think dealing with Theon may shape her in the way she needs to catapult her to a full transformation, making her the sort of leader who can do a bang-up job, post ASOIAF. She has the building blocks of one, but I think she needed a bit more exposure to a. the more delicate side of humanity and b. other cultures

a. Theon's madness being part of this element; she was horrified when she met up with him, she didn't even recognize him at all, and thought he was a torn up old man. b. Something about the sample chapter seems to scream Old God intervention, that, and some of the conversations Asha has had with people like the Mormont warrior-ess lead me to think that Asha is being awakened to those forces, and she will become very involved with them come TWoW. There haven't been enough clue to definitively say how, but my one hypothesis is that she herself either facilitates Theon's escape, or a more honorable execution (beheading vs. being burned alive)

[NotSoSilentSister]

I think we are all so conditioned on the morality-pet template that it's difficult to hook readers on a redemption arc without it. But I was a bit blinded last year when I made this topic by having the issue too much tied up with romance. Once you drop the romantic element it's easier to spot potential morality pets for women in this series.

Sweet Robin as Sansa's morality pet, Theon as Asha's - those are good catches. And I'd add Davos' son for Melisandre, in a way. All pretty decidedly non-romantic. All involving the woman taking on a somewhat motherly role. Those who see any hope for Cersei also mention her children. A men who gets protective is read as chivalric, a women as maternal. Isn't that interesting?

I'm curious to see whether the emerging pattern persists....Will any of the guys get a morality pet without romantic potential? (Some would argue that there is no romantic potential between Jaime and Brienne, Sansa and the Hound, Theon and Jeyne, Tyrion and Penny - but it's definitely more ambiguous). Maybe Shireen or Rickon for Stannis? What does it mean when only guys are portrayed as needing that dangling carrot of potential romance as an incentive to adopt a morality pet?

If you believe that Arya and Sansa are on a hero's journey type arc like I do then presently they're deep in that "being tempted by the dark side" stage. Arya, who believes she's alone in the world and has seen and suffered so much, is presently trying to find a new home for herself with a bunch of amoral assassins. As a child, she was a conscientious person who cared deeply when Mycah was brutally cut down, she was her father's daughter...surrendering her conscience would be the death of her character as we know her. (Yes, I'm aware she started on this path before arriving at Braavos, but that's kind of beside the point.) She doesn't struggle with killing much now, but she does struggle. She doesn't have a morality pet per se, though you could say Needle is a morality pet by proxy for her as it reminds her of Jon.

If Arya is sent to Old Town to train with Jaquen, I think that Sam could become her morality pet!

[Field of Asphodel]

I think we are all so conditioned on the morality-pet template that it's difficult to hook readers on a redemption arc without it. But I was a bit blinded last year when I made this topic by having the issue too much tied up with romance. Once you drop the romantic element it's easier to spot potential morality pets for women in this series.

Sweet Robin as Sansa's morality pet, Theon as Asha's - those are good catches. And I'd add Davos' son for Melisandre, in a way. All pretty decidedly non-romantic. All involving the woman taking on a somewhat motherly role. Those who see any hope for Cersei also mention her children. A men who gets protective is read as chivalric, a women as maternal. Isn't that interesting?

I'm curious to see whether the emerging pattern persists....Will any of the guys get a morality pet without romantic potential? (Some would argue that there is no romantic potential between Jaime and Brienne, Sansa and the Hound, Theon and Jeyne, Tyrion and Penny - but it's definitely more ambiguous). Maybe Shireen or Rickon for Stannis? What does it mean when only guys are portrayed as needing that dangling carrot of potential romance as an incentive to adopt a morality pet?

If Arya is sent to Old Town to train with Jaquen, I think that Sam could become her morality pet!

Penny is an excellent example of a morality pet - in fact, I'd argue that this is the main reason why she's in the story at all. And Tyrion's romantic interest in her is roughly equivalent to Sansa's in Robert Arryn, which is to say, virtually nil. In fact, Penny's one of the few people in Essos who could arouse Tyrion's protective instincts and nothing else 'cause she is a dwarf and homely. Getting trapped on a boat with her was the best thing to ever happen to him.

[Candor]

If Shireen is Stannis' then he is making some in-roads with:

Declaring that if he dies, his followers need to put her on the Throne

Though, if I had to say for him, I actually think Davos is his morality puppet in addition to being the sort of 'angel-on-one-shoulder.' People often cite, if they do not like Stannis for other reasons that they admire his recognizing Davos for his merit and letting him rise high. Also, their friendship. This mirrors other redemption arcs such as Jaime - people even if they hate him will grudgingly agree that his rescue of Brienne was a fine thing.

Stannis has a hard personality, he makes ethically ambigious or clearly unsound decisions, so he has things that he would need redemption for. I think through Davos he can seek that more than with anyone else. If so, we have a same-gender redemption pair going on xD

[NotSoSilentSister]

Penny is an excellent example of a morality pet - in fact, I'd argue that this is the main reason why she's in the story at all. And Tyrion's romantic interest in her is roughly equivalent to Sansa's in Robert Arryn, which is to say, virtually nil. In fact,

I really really hope so. I'm very much against Tyrion ending up with Penny for this very reason.

Stannis and Davos, yes! Though I definitely see the romantic potential....I will however admit that that's the slash googles speaking..... Stannis and Davos probably count as an example that breaks the pattern.

[Candor]

I really really hope so. I'm very much against Tyrion ending up with Penny for this very reason.

Stannis and Davos, yes! Though I definitely see the romantic potential....I will however admit that that's the slash googles speaking..... Stannis and Davos probably count as an example that breaks the pattern.

Cough cough, I agree, but I didn't want to put that out there. You never know how people will react. xD

[Bearbert Dondarrion]

Asha Now has a morality pet, her brother Theon. She wasn't evil Per se but many of her actions are not nice at all.

[Bearbert Dondarrion]

which prompts my question: why are redeeming qualities only given to male villains?

I do not agree with This. You could compare Cersei with Ramsay, Gregor or Joffrey. Only one without reediming qualities. But we have Mel, Dany, Mirri, villans with redeeming qualities.

[NotSoSilentSister]

But we have Mel, Dany, Mirri, villans with redeeming qualities.

Which is why I have included them in my initial question and asked what would be necessary to launch them on a Jaime-style redemption arc!

I'm just frustrated when people say "We haven't seen any compareable character arc for a female character, because the female characters are either not so villaineous to require it in the first place or simply so villaineous that they are beyond redemption".

[mshadows]

Dany is so out of her depth and that she comprehend it is an issue for me at least. It's the second most annoying thing about her first being I'm blood of the dragon non-sence. Her refusal to look back at herself is making her come across so self righteous it prompts hate. She's not evil just foolish and arrogant. Her "redemption" just requires her to sit down and talk to an equal nothing more about her past and seeing mistakes!!

[Bearbert Dondarrion]

Which is why I have included them in my initial question and asked what would be necessary to launch them on a Jaime-style redemption arc!

I'm just frustrated when people say "We haven't seen any compareable character arc for a female character, because the female characters are either not so villaineous to require it in the first place or simply so villaineous that they are beyond redemption".

Well, it depends of the PoV. Mirri could be considered Both a villan and a hero so She doesn't need redemtion. Mel's path To redemption already started IMHo when we discovered in her PoV that She is not as evil as we thought, exactly what happens To Jaime. Before Dance You could say the same thing about Theon, that he did not start His redemption. Dany is Being transformed from the hero To the villan so redemption is not needed Now, before the fall. It is not sexist, because I see the same dark path for Jon and Bran as is the one from Dany and Arya. My bet is that Sansa will become an OK schemer, but who reconstructs the North. Pet theory is that it will be along LF, but I may be biased.