Sandor Clegane 6- Read the Mod Warning before you post

[Été]

Have any other characters besides Jaime and Tywin indicated that they know of Tysha/Tyrion marriage? (Besides those Tyrion has told himself.)

Littlefinger tells Sansa about it when they're on the Merling King. If half the garrison was involved, I'll bet word travelled pretty fast around the taverns and brothels of Lannisport, unbeknownst to Tywin.

[littlespider]

Littlefinger tells Sansa about it when they're on the Merling King. If half the garrison was involved, I'll bet word travelled pretty fast around the taverns and brothels of Lannisport, unbeknownst to Tywin.

Had forgotten about this. Makes sense to me about the word around Lannisport. That coupled with Tywin's treatment years before of Lord Tytos' lowborn mistress? Tywin Lannister: the anti-champion of lowborn women. Now I feel guilty for my occasional grudging admiration of the guy.

[Pihla]

About Sandor hating Tyrion. There is a discussion at the beginning of a game of thrones: Tyrion starts it by insulting Joffrey, Sandor makes a joke about Tyrion, Joeffrey laughs, Tyrion instructs and slaps Joffrey twise (Brandon related stuff) then Joffrey leaves and Sandor warns Tyrion ”The prince will remember that, little lord” and Tyrion replies ”I prey he does. If he forgets, be a good dog and remind him.”

What was that, a fair warning or somekind of threat? If I remember correctly there is somewhere other similar conversion like this. Anyway, this does not seem to me that Tyrion or Sandor hate each other more that anybody else – just their "normal" way to talk.

[Dark14]

they never struck me as hating one another they are just very different. Correct me if i am wrong but do people on here think Sandor is alive or did i just miss something.

[brashcandy]

they never struck me as hating one another they are just very different. Correct me if i am wrong but do people on here think Sandor is alive or did i just miss something.

Yes we do think he's alive and is the gravedigger that Brienne encountered on the Quiet isle. Now i do think that Sandor has some real hatred for Tyrion that goes way past anything we've seen in the series. Also, Tyrion seems to have no knowledge of it at all. So the Tysha thing seems like the best bet... maybe Tysha was somehow connected to Sandor? Or maybe he just doesn't like to see women beaten and raped to such a horrible extent?

[1234567]

they never struck me as hating one another they are just very different. Correct me if i am wrong but do people on here think Sandor is alive or did i just miss something.

Alive Theory = Gravedigger, Quiet Isle, AFFC

The Tyrion v Sandor thing is intriguing, but then Tyrion's quips and comments have earned him the emnity of others before. I don't see Sandor taking jokes at his expense well.

[Été]

they never struck me as hating one another they are just very different. Correct me if i am wrong but do people on here think Sandor is alive or did i just miss something.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/09/16_the_golem_and_the_/index.html

With UnGregor still knocking around, Sansa fantasising about him, and all this guff about the Hound's helm in the Riverlands (which appeared in Bran's first greendream in AGOT), most of us think he's still got a role to play in the story.

[1234567]

As Sandor's helm is now owned by someone else and Thoros also associates it with a bad vibe, it maybe that The Hound becomes a separate persona to Sandor Clegane, especially if someone else such as Lem gets caught in a public way wearing it.

[Ednawolf]

Beyond the helm, it still think Sandor's story isn't over.

[Rinso]

Now i do think that Sandor has some real hatred for Tyrion that goes way past anything we've seen in the series. Also, Tyrion seems to have no knowledge of it at all. So the Tysha thing seems like the best bet... maybe Tysha was somehow connected to Sandor? Or maybe he just doesn't like to see women beaten and raped to such a horrible extent?

Sandor doesn't give a shit about women getting beat up and raped. He, especially during his pre-AGOT days, would probably think they deserve it if they are too weak to defend themselves. That's why I think the suggestion that his resentment is somehow connected with Tysha doesn't hold water - Sandor is not a gallant hero who cares about the innocent.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, y'know. He says that he considers people like Tyrion and Lolys to be low life froms. That's from his own mouth. Why there has to be something deeper than that? Add to that the way Tyrion bosses him around, the fact that he publically shamed him at the Blackwater and that he married Sansa and it's perfectly clear why he hates him.

My two cents, at least.

[headtrip_honey]

Sandor doesn't give a shit about women getting beat up and raped. He, especially during his pre-AGOT days, would probably think they deserve it if they are too weak to defend themselves. That's why I think the suggestion that his resentment is somehow connected with Tysha doesn't hold water - Sandor is not a gallant hero who cares about the innocent.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, y'know. He says that he considers people like Tyrion and Lolys to be low life froms. That's from his own mouth. Why there has to be something deeper than that? Add to that the way Tyrion bosses him around, the fact that he publically shamed him at the Blackwater and that he married Sansa and it's perfectly clear why he hates him.

My two cents, at least.

1. Although I'd say your assessment of his (at least from AGoT and previously) opinion of women getting abused is likely correct, I'd note that we do not know this from the text (that I can recall, anyhow). There's a lot we don't know about his background (we don't know what happened to his sister, and do we know how his mother died?). So it's possible that women getting abused might strike a chord with him. Not in the "OMG MUST GO BE GALLANT AND SAVE WIMMEN" kind of way, but in that it reminds him of whatever happened to the women in his family. So while pre-Sansa he may not have intervened, it still may rub him the wrong way.

2. It's fairly clear that Sandor had contempt for Tyrion before any of those events occurred. Now, this may just be contempt for people in general. I have a suspicion, however, that there's an amount of jealousy and resentment towards Tyrion. Jealousy, because while Tyrion is just as "disfigured" as he, albeit in a different way, his station in life is much better, and his personal life (at these to those looking in from the outside) is much more "normal." Tyrion has the money and power of the Lannister name to smooth over his appearance; Sandor never had that benefit. And I just think their personalities do not mesh at all. Sandor probably thinks he's an obnoxious little punk.

Now, here's something that interests me.

What were Sandor's feelings towards Joffrey? Did he view hanging around him as a "job," or was there any affection there at all? If he'd been Joff's sworn sword since Joff was little, there may have been. He always seemed eager (feels like the wrong word, but whatever) to amuse Joff in AGoT, and it wasn't until Joff started beating up on Sansa that that seemed to die down.

Intriguing relationship, to say the least. I feel like I read somewhere that Joff may have seen the Hound as a surrogate father-figure, since Robert didn't have much interest in him.

[I'dsingforyou]

Hi I'm just new here. I found your thread when I was googling sandor clegane and was delighted to discover liked minded people who have also fallen under the hounds spell. I have read your threads with much interest and amusement today and thought I'd add my own sandor musings :) 

I found sandor just stood out to me from the start and as the books went along his appeal just grew until now I have a giant crush and I find myself here looking for a sandor fix.

This is slightly bizarre for me thou because I have been gay all my life and as a rule am just not attracted to men. So why is my head now filled with fantasies of this giant, hairy, rough, scarred man who is just so manly...and hairy.... (i read those hair posts) Definitely a first for me. Lol

The tv series just added fuel to the fire.Rory McCann as Rory McCann not attractive, Rory McCann as Sandor Clegane highly attractive and extremely desirable. I'll sing for him any day. Funny. 

I always wondered what type of man Sandor would have been if he wasn't treated like shit all his life and people gave him just a little respect. To me he was always a product of his environment and his evil deeds forced by the hands of others and was never truly a bad person in my eyes. He'll always be a bad arse but with good intentions if just given the choice.

He always did right by Ayra even after the ransom was gone and didnt ditch or kill her and her compassion was worse towards him by her leaving him there in agony. She lost so many brownie points with me for doing that.

 With Sansa he may have been socially inept and have a big old crush on her but so what. He still showed kindness towards her when guards were beating her while other guards felt guilty for doing nothing, he tried to have a conversation with her when Ser Illyn scared her before Joffery told the 'dog' to leave and he never treated her roughly and spoke better to her then half in the court, well tried to in his way.

And when he was in Sansa's room, well who hasn't gone to an object of desire after a few too many drinks not really sure if they should be doing it or what they even want out of it. He was leaving and the drink gave him the courage to ask Sansa to leave with him. Yes he took the song by knife but to me that was desperation in getting at least something from her before he went. 

He could have done worse and jumped her by force or even taken a kiss when she had her eyes shut but didnt. There must be some morals and compassion there otherwise why not just take whatever he wants. A part of him doesn't want it if it's not offered by choice.

Yes he got the song by force but even something in Sansa saw through that when she touched his face. I thought the hound was crying because he wanted her song, knew he could only get it through force, thought the song beautiful but felt like a dog for doing it to Sansa and knew it was given falsely.

 Hes this big bundle of contradiction, torn between caring for someone and the hopes she'll run away with him which brings out tenderness (rough as it is) and wanting to do right and self loathing and anger towards himself and others, knowing Sansa can't even look at him and that hell always be judged badly by everyone.

He says things like he laughed cutting down Micah and that he should have raped Sansa when he had the chance because that's what is expected of the hound but it's all talk. Now that Sansa rejected him he may as well be the big bad hound that hates everyone as that's all anyone will ever see him as. Maybe he is only capable of seeing himself through the eyes of others? Oh Sandor u tortured soul you.

 I don't think Sandor has ever had a chance to truly be free of influence and because of that doesn't know truly who he is or who he can be.

That's where I come in, to show him that someone can love and accept him. I'll tell him his burns are only skin deep and that they do not make him the man he is. That I look upon his scarred face only with lust and desire so he'll drop that grave digging shovel, pull me onto Stranger and ride off into the sunset  lol

But seriously  it seems sandor has this incredible attraction for random people and can produce so much debate and speculation which is fantastic writing seeing he is one of many characters.  I truly hope his story continues far, not just for personal reasons but in a world where characters are fleeting and unchangeable he is a complex, interesting character with the possibility of so much change or growth in many directions it would b such a shame to have him finish over a grave shovel in hand.

He is one of the most capturing and thought provoking characters I have had the pleasure to encounter. Not just because he has made me think of  manly knights with rough voices in a whole new way but because he has us all talking and discussing him. Well done GRRM

Thanks for listening to my  novel. Sorry I got excited to finally share my secret Sandor thoughts.

[headtrip_honey]

Welcome!

This is slightly bizarre for me thou because I have been gay all my life and as a rule am just not attracted to men. So why is my head now filled with fantasies of this giant, hairy, rough, scarred man who is just so manly...and hairy.... (i read those hair posts) Definitely a first for me. Lol

The tv series just added fuel to the fire.Rory McCann as Rory McCann not attractive, Rory McCann as Sandor Clegane highly attractive and extremely desirable. I'll sing for him any day. Funny.

Glad to amuse! There is NOTHING wrong with a hairy man, provided it's in the right places. :leer:

Off-topic:

I would like to submit this as evidence that Rory as Rory can be quite smokin:

http://fyrorymccann....-going-to-leave (last Rory squee, Mods, I swear! :leaving: )

I always wondered what type of man Sandor would have been if he wasn't treated like shit all his life and people gave him just a little respect. To me he was always a product of his environment and his evil deeds forced by the hands of others and was never truly a bad person in my eyes. He'll always be a bad arse but with good intentions if just given the choice.

He always did right by Ayra even after the ransom was gone and didnt ditch or kill her and her compassion was worse towards him by her leaving him there in agony. She lost so many brownie points with me for doing that.

I see the Arya thing this way:

She'd been trying to "escape" from him for a while, and saw this as a big opportunity. I think if she'd truly hated him, she would have killed him, even if it was "giving him mercy." I think she was conflicted in how she felt about him, so couldn't bring herself to make any decision. So she just ran, with some parting shots. She's still a little girl, even if she's much older than her years.

Thanks for listening to my novel. Sorry I got excited to finally share my secret Sandor thoughts.

No worries - we all go through that OMG OTHER PEOPLE LOVE THE HOUND TOOOOO? phase. It's nice support group here. Welcome, once again.

:grouphug:

[Été]

I see the Arya thing this way:

She'd been trying to "escape" from him for a while, and saw this as a big opportunity. I think if she'd truly hated him, she would have killed him, even if it was "giving him mercy." I think she was conflicted in how she felt about him, so couldn't bring herself to make any decision. So she just ran, with some parting shots. She's still a little girl, even if she's much older than her years.

I absolutely love that turning point at the Red Wedding, when he takes on the Frey knights in the rain and Arya can't work out who to throw her rock at. She'd prayed a hundred hundred times for the Hound to die ... She thought of Mycah, the butcher's boy who had been her friend so briefly. That's a really loaded statement - he'd been her friend so briefly because, um, Sandor killed him, and yet she decides they're on the same side now.

I wonder if we'll ever get the Hound's take on Arya. She helped him fight the Freys and Gregor's men, and he looked after her on the road for months, yet at the end she still hated him so much she left him to a slow and painful death. Ouch.

[brashcandy]

Now, here's something that interests me.</p>

What were Sandor's feelings towards Joffrey? Did he view hanging around him as a "job," or was there any affection there at all? If he'd been Joff's sworn sword since Joff was little, there may have been. He always seemed eager (feels like the wrong word, but whatever) to amuse Joff in AGoT, and it wasn't until Joff started beating up on Sansa that that seemed to die down.

Intriguing relationship, to say the least. I feel like I read somewhere that Joff may have seen the Hound as a surrogate father-figure, since Robert didn't have much interest in him.

I think he felt Joff was a little shit but he didn't mind until he started being a shit to Sansa. He was trying to just do his job but the conflict got to be too much. And when you think that all this goes down in the space of two books, we can really appreciate the kind of impact Sansa had on him. Sandor seemed to totally give himself over to being Joffrey's dog, because people really had no other expectations of him. I'm not trying to woobify the Hound here ;) but I really think that he went down a path because of his burns that he might not have taken otherwise. People hate to look at him, are afraid of him because of the burns, and he really just seemed to internalize the negativity and project it outwards. This is why getting Sansa to look at him is so important. In the beginning I think he wanted her to admit that she finds him scary and repulsive, and he didn't give a damn past trying her to drop the polite act, but by the bedroom scene, this has changed. He wants her to look at him and see past those burns now... and not to be repulsed anymore because now he wants her to desire him. :(

[littlespider]

Hi I'm just new here. I found your thread when I was googling sandor clegane and was delighted to discover liked minded people who have also fallen under the hounds spell. I have read your threads with much interest and amusement today and thought I'd add my own sandor musings :)

Welcome, I'dsing (nice name, btw).

Be sure to read the mod warning on page 1: while we all like to squee our faces off over the Hound's overall awesomeness, we need to really work to avoid it so as not to get our threads shut down or banned.

Just to make clear, I approve of your squeeing, just wanted to make sure that we can keep talking about our boy and not get axed. So we're trying to avoid (among other things) excessive shipping and/or speculation about said shipping.

I don't mean to be a downer on your enthusiasm, though.

Will be back later to comment: but I have to say that I am more interested right now in seeing him and Arya reunite, and Arya's reaction to him, than in other potential Sandor plot arcs.

[brashcandy]

Sandor doesn't give a shit about women getting beat up and raped. He, especially during his pre-AGOT days, would probably think they deserve it if they are too weak to defend themselves. That's why I think the suggestion that his resentment is somehow connected with Tysha doesn't hold water - Sandor is not a gallant hero who cares about the innocent.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, y'know. He says that he considers people like Tyrion and Lolys to be low life froms. That's from his own mouth. Why there has to be something deeper than that? Add to that the way Tyrion bosses him around, the fact that he publically shamed him at the Blackwater and that he married Sansa and it's perfectly clear why he hates him.

My two cents, at least.

Sandor may indeed view Tyrion and Lollys as lower lifeforms, but I think the pity he shows for Sansa and later, Arya, shows that he isn't devoid of common human decency and a twisted sense of honour. I think that if he had been in a position to help Lollys during the riot he may have, but it's also true that he cannot see past his interest in Sansa :) But we simply don't have evidence to state that he wouldn't care if a woman got gangraped and he could do something to stop it. He may be nonchalant after the fact, but that's how Sandor is. As for Tyrion, there are too many clues that there is something that Sandor really really hates Tyrion for. Not just because he's a deformed dwarf high on the social scale, and not because he's the only one who talks back to Sandor. He states that he should have killed Tyrion years ago, and he wants to burn him. These are not normal reactions that one would expect someone to have if you simply didn't like someone, and Sandor doesn't strike me as the type to waste unnecessary emotion over anyone.

[Été]

As for Tyrion, there are too many clues that there is something that Sandor really really hates Tyrion for. Not just because he's a deformed dwarf high on the social scale, and not because he's the only one who talks back to Sandor. He states that he should have killed Tyrion years ago, and he wants to burn him. These are not normal reactions that one would expect someone to have if you simply didn't like someone, and Sandor doesn't strike me as the type to waste unnecessary emotion over anyone.

It's the "should have killed him years ago" bit that makes it seem like there's something more going on there than everyday sparring. I don't think it's all about Tysha, but that might have been another demerit.

[Rinso]

I think that if he had been in a position to help Lollys during the riot he may have

I think that this the main part where we disagree. If he saw what they did to Lolys during the riot, he absolutely wouldn't have risked himself to save her. He saved Sansa, yes, but not because he cares about damsels in distress. He saved Sansa because it's Sansa. His damsel, his little bird. Lolys, and every other woman means nothing to him - a piece of meat to be devoured by the mob. I think that the only other woman he would have saved in this particular moment if he had to is Cersei, and only because he's her servant. But girls like Lolys, her mother, her sister, the more insignificant ladies of the court... no, Sandor Clegane would never save them.

He's the man who says that the weak are made to be playthings for the strong. He says that people are meat and he is a butcher. He could care less about random people who suffer because someone torments them - in his mind, that's their place. I think that Sansa, and to a much lesser degree Arya, are truly only exceptions, and immense ones at that.

That's how I see things. I've said many times that often there are no right and wrong interpretations of the characters when it comes to these books, because a huge part of the ASoIaF reading experience is you projecting your own ideas and morals onto the canvas of the characters. In my mental painting, Sandor Clegane is a misanthrope to whom human life and the suffering of the "weak" mean nothing; he is capable of caring for someone, but only for a very limited number of people.

--

Now, as to Tyrion, I think that the "should have killed him years ago" line is taken out of proportion when it comes to its importance. Don't forget that this is said near the end of ASOS, and the time passed between ASOS and AGOT is more than a whole year. And their enmity probably goes further back. Up until the end of ACOK and beyong, Sandor doesn't show any incline to murder Tyrion - he just resents and despises him. Hell, in AGOT he made fun of him to amuse Joffrey, and Tyrion notes that he likes to do that shit pretty often; this is bullying and loathing, but there is nothing to indicate murderious rage festering for years. I think that he really began to hate him after the Blackwater incident and when he later heard about Sansa that was the last drop.

Don't forget that this line was also said in a time when Sandor was feverish and borderline delirious.

[Alexia]

I think that this the main part where we disagree. If he saw what they did to Lolys during the riot, he absolutely wouldn't have risked himself to save her.

Generally I agree with you, Rinso, but Sandor didn't place much value on his own life. He's considered an especially ferocious and frightening warrior because he fights in that manner. Something that I think gets overlooked in that scene is that Sandor wasn't on a horse, because Joffrey had ordered him to get down and go start attacking the unfortunate smallfolk. Sansa was on a horse, which enabled him to get out of there in one piece. Now, I know perfectly well that he saved Sansa because he's infatuated with her and she's his little bird, but if he was on foot and Lollys was being dragged from her horse, he would have charged in to save her too. And perhaps even without it... he says that he gutted one of the men attacking Ser Preston, and I think that at least for the pure joy of killing some people, he would have done the same if he stumbled across the men attacking Lollys. Also significant is that he is a man at arms there even before the KG gig, and his job is to protect the noble party. He might not stop in a dark alleyway to end a rape in progress, but it is kind of his job to stop an attack on Lollys as part of the escort through the city.

Not out of chivalry, or out of any desire to help Lollys specifically. But to 1) escape the mob; and, 2) kill people.

Sandor told Sansa he should have killed Tyrion years ago. He told Arya that he wished Cersei would dip him in wildfire and tickle him until the moon turned black. Your timeline's off a bit -- though I agree it gets blown out of proportion.

***retreats back into the ADWD forum... and a Tumblr or LiveJournal page wouldn't be a bad idea, if someone wanted organize setting it up.