Unpopular Opinions IV

[brashcandy]

I like Tommen, but he is talking of "outlawing beets" while you have Bran and even little Rickon acting much older than their ages. I have to agree with Brash, when Bran was sitting in as Lord of Winterfell, he was actually very insightful on certain matters.

I think all the Tyrells are schemers, and I for one think that is why GRRM does not give us a Tyrell POV, to keep us guessing ;)

I too would cheer if Jon turns out to be anyone's but Lyanna's and Rhaegar's but unfortunately, I don't think that will happen so I have resigned myself to the theory....sigh!

We'll probably get a Tyrell POV in TWOW, then we'll know for sure!

[Shaggydog Stark]

We'll probably get a Tyrell POV in TWOW, then we'll know for sure!

Really? I thought he wasn't going to give us any new POVs. I would love a Tyrell POV, anyone of them would suit me fine.

[Lemon Cake]

Regarding the Bran/Tommen comparison, I'm not sure it's a fair one. Tommen is more your typical 8-year-old, whereas Bran... Bran is special (special, not ~speshul). He's the exception, not the rule. I think most kids his age would look a bit dim and unperceptive compared to Bran.

I agree that Tommen's not a good king and probably never will be, but I just can't bring myself to be hard on an 8-year-old for, well, being an 8-year-old.

[Alexia]

really, I think ti's a combination of a) intelligence, or lack thereof, and B) lack of good role models/education.

Tommen is roughly Bran's age. Compare Bran, in Robb's absence, holding court and listening to Maester Luwin explain how things work, and then making informed decisions. And then Tommen - this is boring, when do I get to play with the ink stamp?

Bran shows (perhaps) insight and intelligence for his age, Tommen does not. Luwin at Winterfell seems personally invested in Bran's upbringing; whereas most everyone in King's Landing is just using him as a pawn to rule through.

That's unfair. Tommen didn't think "this is boring" he actually wanted to hold court like Bran did, and have a Maester Luwin explain things to him. Every time he showed interest he was slapped down. I don't think anything is wrong with Tommen's brain and I think he shows a normal amount of interest in his position and attempts to learn more about it.

Bran shows insight because people are keeping him involved and explaining how things work. Tommen can't show insight because he is being threatened with punishment for wanting to attend council meetings and hold court.

[Bourne]

I like Tommen, but he is talking of "outlawing beets" while you have Bran and even little Rickon acting much older than their ages. I have to agree with Brash, when Bran was sitting in as Lord of Winterfell, he was actually very insightful on certain matters.

really, I think ti's a combination of a) intelligence, or lack thereof, and B) lack of good role models/education.

Tommen is roughly Bran's age. Compare Bran, in Robb's absence, holding court and listening to Maester Luwin explain how things work, and then making informed decisions. And then Tommen - this is boring, when do I get to play with the ink stamp?

Bran shows (perhaps) insight and intelligence for his age, Tommen does not. Luwin at Winterfell seems personally invested in Bran's upbringing; whereas most everyone in King's Landing is just using him as a pawn to rule through.

Maybe, but you can't compare Tommen to any one child and say he's not good because he appears to be the weaker of the two. If I were to compare someones talent on the piano to Mozart, would you say that person is a bad pianist just because they're aren't as good as he was? You have to compare him to 8 year-old children as a whole. As much as I hate Bran, he's exceptionally smart for his age and has the whole third eye thing. Of course he's going to be smarter than Tommen. But if you compare Tommen to the average 8 year-old is he more stupid or ignorant? No.

And I think you're overstating Bran's impact when he was Lord of Winterfell. Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin made the decisions. Bran understood what was going on and attempted to contribute in a way Tommen doesn't, but he didn't really do anything exceptional.

[eyeheartsansa]

All I've said is Tommen is not as smart as Bran ... seems like a no brainer to me. Myrcella is another child who appears to be a bit smarter than Tommen. And I have pointed out that Tommen doesn't have people invested in his education the same way Bran has had. I don't think Bran is some kind of Einstein, just an example of what another person Tommen's age might be capable of.

I think everyone is on the same page here!

[Bourne]

But Bran isn't an example of what another person Tommen's age might be capable of. He is only an example of what Bran is capabale of. Bran is an exception. Very few children Bran's age are as capable as Bran. So it's unfair to judge Tommen based off of Bran.

[brashcandy]

We're comparing Bran and Tommen and let's not forget Sweetrobin because they're all young kids who have found themselves in difficult positions and have to cope with the loss of one or both parents.

I do feel sympathy for Tommen, as I do for Bran and Sweetrobin, and if he does want to sit in on small council meetings then that is a positive sign for his future development. However, the issue to me has never been whether Bran is more intelligent or not (although he probably is) but the fact that Tommen does not seem to grasp the seriousness of what is happening around him. Either he is being kept extremely sheltered and protected or he's prone to existing in his own little fantasy world.

And before everyone jumps out at me and claims that's what 8 year olds do, please me mindful that Tommen has seen his sister sent away, his father and brother both killed, his uncle tried for murder, his grandfather murdered, and he's now married himself. I hope he matures and surprises me in TWOW, but I'm not optimistic that he'll live long to even be competent.

As for Sweetrobin, he's being poisoned by an adult, and has health issues due to his mother's excessive coddling (perhaps). I can only wish him the best.

[eyeheartsansa]

But very few children Bran's or Tommen's age are going to be king. He's not trying to pass third grade here; he is going to be ruling a kingdom, or someone is going to be ruling through him. So far it looks like the latter.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Maybe, but you can't compare Tommen to any one child and say he's not good because he appears to be the weaker of the two. If I were to compare someones talent on the piano to Mozart, would you say that person is a bad pianist just because they're aren't as good as he was? You have to compare him to 8 year-old children as a whole. As much as I hate Bran, he's exceptionally smart for his age and has the whole third eye thing. Of course he's going to be smarter than Tommen. But if you compare Tommen to the average 8 year-old is he more stupid or ignorant? No.

And I think you're overstating Bran's impact when he was Lord of Winterfell. Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin made the decisions. Bran understood what was going on and attempted to contribute in a way Tommen doesn't, but he didn't really do anything exceptional.

I don't think Tommen is stupid, I just think he won't make a good king because he doesn't have the grooming and he doesn't really show any interest. He only wants to sit on the council, etc. because Margaery encourages him.

I think he is a sweet kid and a normal 8-year old. However, he is also the king and seems blissfully unaware of this fact. He doesn't question things, even out of curiosity. Bran was constantly asking questions, for instance.

I think it is in AFFC that Kevan Lannister puts decrees in front of him to sign. Kevan explains each decree as he lays it in front of Tommen. Kevan, at least, was trying to involve him, but Tommen doesn't question anything he just dips his pen in the ink and signs and at the end he just wants to seal the letters.

Why is Bran an exception? Apart from having that third eye thing, he is a normal boy. However, he is much more serious than Tommen and realizes that he has responsibilities. Of course all the Stark kids have received grooming, whereas Tommen is a bit neglected.

[eyeheartsansa]

yeah, I don't see bran as an exception. He seems like a solid a/b student, but not some kind of prodigy. He has however been surrounded by positive male role models all his life like Ned, Robb, Luwin, so maybe that in itself is exceptional.

[Shaggydog Stark]

yeah, I don't see bran as an exception. He seems like a solid a/b student, but not some kind of prodigy. He has however been surrounded by positive male role models all his life like Ned, Robb, Luwin, so maybe that in itself is exceptional.

Agreed. Bran's role models played a very significant role, Tommen has sadly lacked any proper role models.

[Lord Jon Connington]

Am I the only one who thinks Tyrion was a bit of a baby regarding the way his father treated him? Not to say he treated him well, I just don't think Tywin treated any of his kids differently. Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst. She was pretty much a walking vagina that he would sell into whatever marriage would strengthen the Lannister family (Seriously, Balon Greyjoy (!), Oberyn Martell(!!!)). He seemed to show as much empathy towards Tyrion's nose than Jaimie's hand also.

[Tini]

Agreed. Bran's role models played a very significant role, Tommen has sadly lacked any proper role models.

Instead Tommen had a mother who discouraged independent action/thought in the strictest way possible, removing all possible role models.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Instead Tommen had a mother who discouraged independent action/thought in the strictest way possible, removing all possible role models.

Yeah, that woman is seriously warped! She uses Tommen to rule through him instead of teaching him and preparing him. She even thinks it is her time to rule and Tommen can wait just like she did!

[brashcandy]

Agreed. Bran's role models played a very significant role, Tommen has sadly lacked any proper role models.

Now now, are ya'll trying to claim that Robert's whoring and drinking was not a good example? :lol:

I do appreciate the difference in upbringings, but I still can't attribute too much to this. Bran was not in any way prepared to have his whole family go missing on him, and be left as a cripple to act as Lord of Winterfell. Tommen seems to lack a fundamental inner strength of character that wouldn't make him a pawn. His age may shield him from harsher criticism now, but do we really believe that in ten years the name of King Tommen would make anyone stand up and listen?

he seems like he would be a bit like Quentyn Martell, earnest and sincere, but woefully inept and clueless.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Am I the only one who thinks Tyrion was a bit of a baby regarding the way his father treated him? Not to say he treated him well, I just don't think Tywin treated any of his kids differently. Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst. She was pretty much a walking vagina that he would sell into whatever marriage would strengthen the Lannister family (Seriously, Balon Greyjoy (!), Oberyn Martell(!!!)). He seemed to show as much empathy towards Tyrion's nose than Jaimie's hand also.

The garrison of guards raping his wife and then he himself doing it was pretty brutal. Although, I have to wonder how he could have been aroused under the circumstances. That disturbs me about Tyrion.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Now now, are ya'll trying to claim that Robert's whoring and drinking was not a good example? :lol:

I do appreciate the difference in upbringings, but I still can't attribute too much to this. Bran was not in any way prepared to have his whole family go missing on him, and be left as a cripple to act as Lord of Winterfell. Tommen seems to lack a fundamental inner strength of character that wouldn't make him a pawn. His age may shield him from harsher criticism now, but do we really believe that in ten years the name of King Tommen would make anyone stand up and listen?

he seems like he would be a bit like Quentyn Martell, earnest and sincere, but woefully inept and clueless.

I was thinking more of the lovely examples Joffrey left behind. :laugh:

But you make an excellent point. He seems to lack an inner strength that the Stark kids all have to some extent.

[brashcandy]

Am I the only one who thinks Tyrion was a bit of a baby regarding the way his father treated him? Not to say he treated him well, I just don't think Tywin treated any of his kids differently. Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst. She was pretty much a walking vagina that he would sell into whatever marriage would strengthen the Lannister family (Seriously, Balon Greyjoy (!), Oberyn Martell(!!!)). He seemed to show as much empathy towards Tyrion's nose than Jaimie's hand also.

Umm, he was less favoured because he was a dwarf, ugly and killed his mother. Tywin even goes so far as to claim that he isn't really his son and disowns him as his heir. He may not have respected Cersei's wants and needs either, but he at least saw that she was set up in the highest possible position as a Queen. Tyrion needs to do more self introspection and see how he is contributing to his own misery, but really, he has every right to despise Tywin.

[1234567]

Am I the only one who thinks Tyrion was a bit of a baby regarding the way his father treated him? Not to say he treated him well, I just don't think Tywin treated any of his kids differently. Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst. She was pretty much a walking vagina that he would sell into whatever marriage would strengthen the Lannister family (Seriously, Balon Greyjoy (!), Oberyn Martell(!!!)). He seemed to show as much empathy towards Tyrion's nose than Jaimie's hand also.

Tywin did order Tyrion's wife to be gangraped in front of him, told him that she was a whore (setting off his whole I can't be loved but I can pay women to pretend philosophy), then proceeded to make sure that he would not inherit his birthright of Casterly Rock.

Also Tywin ignored Tyrion for most of ACOK and ASOS, and believed Cersei over him. He also let Cersei fix the trial that ensured he would either die or be sent to the Wall. So I have to say I do think he had a genuine gripe with his old Papa.