Unpopular Opinions IV

[Tammy]

Hmm ok. I haven't read Dunk and Egg so I'll take your word :)

Dunk is pretty much the epitome of the true knight, although he doesn't come from noble birth. He's freakishly large (not as tall as Gregor but close), he's loyal to a fault, discounted as inferior by many, but has a genuinely good heart and cares about the people around him - whether they're noble or smallfolk. Pretty much a lot of the characteristics Brienne has. :)

[eyeheartsansa]

Cercei to me was like watching a bad reality show, but in a good way. Just a horrible, funny trainwreck that I can't look away from. So we'll have to agree to disagree on her believability and entertainment value!

But see, I got bored with Jaime's chapters and had to keep checking the wiki to see which deposed lords he was parlying with, and why I should care (bracken? Blackwood? vance? meh). His whole trip back to the Riverlands seemed rather inconsequential to the rest of the plot. But I do agree with you that his 'redemption arc' is dubious at best (so far). What needs to happen with Jaime is that he finally owns up to pushing Bran, and starts acting like a father to Tommen.

[Alexia]

We'll have to agree to disagree on Cercei's believability and entertainment value!

But see, I got bored with Jaime's chapters and had to keep checking the wiki to see which deposed lords he was parlying with. His whole trip back to the Riverlands seemed rather inconsequential to the rest of the plot. But I do agree with you that his 'redemption arc' is dubious at best (so far). What needs to happen with Jaime is that he finally owns up to pushing Bran, and starts acting like a father to Tommen.

That's funny, because I actually really enjoyed Jaime's riverlands plotline. Especially since he was so patently breaking his oath while trying to tell himself otherwise... it only cemented my dislike for Jaime the person, but I found his chapters tremendously entertaining.

Different strokes, right? :)

[brashcandy]

Once I got over my knee-jerk dislike of Brienne (that basically consists of stop looking at Jaime like that) I find her chapters and her character much more interesting. She isn't the sort of character I find particularly appealing but I appreciate that GRRM gives us a woman who is a convincing warrior - i.e. she's not inexplicably able to hold her own against men despite being petite and feminine. Personality wise she reminds me of Ned Stark, and if she had been born a man I think they would have been very similar. In a way I think she's a lot like Sansa - this young girl who still believes in honor and knights and songs, except she identifies with the knights rather than the maidens. Like Tyrion and Sam she is constantly being judged by her appearance and found wanting, but unlike Tyrion and Sam as a woman this is an unforgivable sin. And of course she works in direct opposition to Cersei in that her weakness and softness is entirely internal. God, I could literally talk about the women of ASoIaF all day!

Very good analysis of Brienne and yes, the women of ASOIAF make for fascinating discussions, much more than the men in my view.

What I've never been able to determine is why Cersei directs so much hatred toward other women? I mean, you would think she would recognize in them the same suffering she had to endure, but she is constantly heaping abuse on top of others, particularly young girls.

[ZacharyB]

My unpopular opinion for the day: I really want to see the Cersei from AGoT again. It seems like a lot of people are happy to finally see her fall, but I miss the cunning villain we had before. Hopefully (ADWD spoilers)

When Robert Strong gets her acquitted, she starts to regain some stability. ;)

[Tammy]

I tend to disagree there. Sansa, Catelyn, and AGOT-ASOS Daenerys are all very well written female characters in addition to Arya.

Cersei just makes me want to cry. I loved her as a villain for the first three books, just loved her. She's always been one of my favorite characters. And then... I believe her characterization took the turn it did because there was initially supposed to be the 5 year gap during which she ruined herself (which even the old Cersei would have done in 5 years) but after GRRM ditched it he had to pack her ruin into about five months. I think that is also what went wrong with Daenerys in ADWD, although in her case it was far less grating.

You know, you're right. I'm going to go ahead and assume my friend meant women who didn't fit the archetypal mold.

I didn't even consider the five year gap issue being part of the problem. Perhaps when Petyr said something about his not planning to do certain things for another few years it was a nod to the gap problem. I see it in the case of Cersei and I suppose if it had been these issues prolonged over five years it probably wouldn't have seemed so harsh and disappointing, but clumped as it was well...

With Daeny, I find it a bit different. Her chapters did grate on me by the end, but not necessarily due to the actions or inactions she was taking (Daario aside). I found her completely realistic and thought he was setting up a parallel between her and Jon. Her stagnation I found was mostly due to lack of experience and guidance, and I thought he was demonstrating how one person could really want to be a good ruler but without those two important things would end up in a stalemate so to speak.

So, her story bored me to tears, but I found it realistic and well-written.

[1234567]

As you said, Sansa was desperate, and the Tyrells played on this in order to advance their own political objectives. Yes, she had no reason to despise the Tyrells like she did the Lannisters, but we see how quickly their interest in her dropped when she became another House's pawn.

That was heartbreaking when they ditched her. (I hope the cousins get it as well as Margery). What is interesting is whether or not they intended her to take the fall for Joff's death. When Joff dies one of the Tyrells starts talking about him choking (as if on que). If Cersei hadn't gone batshit crazy, it is possible that the Tyrells would have tried to get her to Highgarden (the Queen of Thorns did ask her to come with her that day) and have her marriage reversed and then forced her to marry Willas. Their interest certainly picked up once it became public knowledge that Tyrion hadn't forced himself on her.

I think LF set up the pig thing so that Tyrion would be blamed, because Tyrion was Master of the Coin and clever enough to eventually get to the bottom of LF's crooked accounting.

What separates Sansa and Marg to me is that Sansa is absolutely alone in all of these situations. She has no protective family, no close friends or cousins to rally around her when she needs support. I agree that once again LF is using her as a pawn, but this time I'm hoping that she'll have Mya and Myranda to help her get out of the situation.

God it would be nice for her to have some friends. Real friends and not false flowers.

[Karla Rome]

I was very suprised to find how many people were Victarion FTW. I found his chapters bland and boring, and I couldn't understand how readers were able to relate to him. I mean, he beat his wife to death after she had (what was more than likely unwilling) sex with his brother. He clearly has no compassion for other people, especially with

He burns those women on the boat for the crime of...being attractive???

I just found him unappealing as a whole.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Here is my unpopular theory about Cersei. She was always an idiot IMO, however we never saw it in previous books because of LF and Varys (especially LF) who were the main engineers behind all of "her" successful plots. She was always on the winning team and given credit for schemes she did not engineer. However, once Varys and LF both leave KL, her true colors show and we see how truly incapable she is just like the other lords/nobles she thinks she has brought down.

[Karla Rome]

My unpopular opinion for the day: I really want to see the Cersei from AGoT again. It seems like a lot of people are happy to finally see her fall, but I miss the cunning villain we had before. Hopefully (ADWD spoilers)

When Robert Strong gets her acquitted, she starts to regain some stability. ;)

This. I found Cersei AFFC very realistic, but I very much miss the villain that made you think, "Cersei, you villain, you!" instead of "Really, Cersei? That was all you could come up with?" I thought she made a formidable foe AGOT-ASOS.

[ZacharyB]

Here is my unpopular theory about Cersei. She was always an idiot IMO, however we never saw it in previous books because of LF and Varys (especially LF) who were the main engineers behind all of "her" successful plots. She was always on the winning team and given credit for schemes she did not engineer. However, once Varys and LF both leave KL, her true colors show and we see how truly incapable she is just like the other lords/nobles she thinks she has brought down.

Well, LF does have to with the fall of Cersei. Since he killed her son...which is why she's so bat shit crazy in AFFC.

[brashcandy]

My unpopular opinion for the day: I really want to see the Cersei from AGoT again. It seems like a lot of people are happy to finally see her fall, but I miss the cunning villain we had before. Hopefully (ADWD spoilers)

When Robert Strong gets her acquitted, she starts to regain some stability. ;)

I advanced this idea over on ADWD and I was promptly told off for it :lol: I just don't see what the fun would be of having Cersei sink lower than she is now. Surely Martin plans on having her rise again, and I would love to see it.

[holding]

What I've never been able to determine is why Cersei directs so much hatred toward other women? I mean, you would think she would recognize in them the same suffering she had to endure, but she is constantly heaping abuse on top of others, particularly young girls.

I think it's a combination of a few things, but what it basically comes down to is that there is no conception in Westeros of feminism or 'womankind' or anything like that. Cersei sees herself as Queen first, Lannister second, and woman somewhere down that list. She has no loyalty to other women - if anything, in a patriarchal society where everything she has can be taken from her in a second just because her husband decides he prefers a different woman, she sees women as the enemy. Which is unfair, of course, but we're talking about a woman who already sees almost everybody as the enemy. She utterly lacks empathy, which is why she can only really love people she sees as extensions of herself. And of course as Tywin's daughter she despises weakness, and has been taught since she was a child that to be female is in itself a weakness. And we see that kind of dichotomy in her reactions to Sansa - she's at once scornful of her and protective of her, she's cruel but she also genuinely seems to want to teach her something. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Well, LF does have to with the fall of Cersei. Since he killed her son...which is why she's so bat shit crazy in AFFC.

What I mean is, that without LF and Varys to team up with we see that she is incapable of coming up with a single cunning scheme. It was all their doing,their ideas, their schemes. Cersei by herself is an idiot. Yes, LF helped kill Joff which added to her insanity, but she was never very clever to begin with.

[Alexia]

Cersei reminds me of that stereotypical "feminist" who claws and fights her way up the ladder and then turns around and kicks it over to be sure nobody else can climb up behind her because if she had to do it the hard way so why should anyone else get it easy? That was how I interpreted her attitude towards other women, at least, with the exception of Myrcella (she freaks over the Dornish marriage, and rightfully so).

[brashcandy]

I think it's a combination of a few things, but what it basically comes down to is that there is no conception in Westeros of feminism or 'womankind' or anything like that. Cersei sees herself as Queen first, Lannister second, and woman somewhere down that list. She has no loyalty to other women - if anything, in a patriarchal society where everything she has can be taken from her in a second just because her husband decides he prefers a different woman, she sees women as the enemy. Which is unfair, of course, but we're talking about a woman who already sees almost everybody as the enemy. She utterly lacks empathy, which is why she can only really love people she sees as extensions of herself. And of course as Tywin's daughter she despises weakness, and has been taught since she was a child that to be female is in itself a weakness. And we see that kind of dichotomy in her reactions to Sansa - she's at once scornful of her and protective of her, she's cruel but she also genuinely seems to want to teach her something. That's my take on it, anyway.

It's an excellent take and I think very true. I've posited before that this is why Cersei only enjoys sex with Jaime, because he is her twin, and very much like herself.

I think she's a fascinating study, and I don't think we can write her off as batshit crazy full stop. She truly seems not to be able to empathise with other women, and I do think it's because as you said, she doesn't identify as one so much. Women are weak, vulnerable and subject to the whims and fancies of men, everything that Cersei wants to distinguish herself from, and yet gets caught back up in the same net.

[ZacharyB]

What I mean is, that without LF and Varys to team up with we see that she is incapable of coming up with a single cunning scheme. It was all their doing,their ideas, their schemes. Cersei by herself is an idiot. Yes, LF helped kill Joff which added to her insanity, but she was never very clever to begin with.

Oh, I know what you meant. I'm fairly sure if Cersei was left alone Pre-Purple Wedding, she would have been able to been a smart villain herself. But Joffrey's death just made her paranoid. She didn't take anyone's advice and made decisions based on the shadows that she thought she saw everywhere. The Cersei we're seeing now is not the Cersei Pre-ASOS.

[mediocre cheese]

Here is my unpopular theory about Cersei. She was always an idiot IMO, however we never saw it in previous books because of LF and Varys (especially LF) who were the main engineers behind all of "her" successful plots. She was always on the winning team and given credit for schemes she did not engineer. However, once Varys and LF both leave KL, her true colors show and we see how truly incapable she is just like the other lords/nobles she thinks she has brought down.

But all of the bad actions Joffrey takes in the first books stem from not listening to cersei and instead listening to varys/lf. Its varys who convinces joffrey to dismiss barristan (although cersei goes along with it) and its LF who in all likelihood gets ned executed when cersei told joffrey to spare him.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Oh, I know what you meant. I'm fairly sure if Cersei was left alone Pre-Purple Wedding, she would have been able to been a smart villain herself. But Joffrey's death just made her paranoid. She didn't take anyone's advice and made decisions based on the shadows that she thought she saw everywhere. The Cersei we're seeing now is not the Cersei Pre-ASOS.

This where I disagree. Now that she is alone, it becomes obvious that she is not devious in any way. The devious ones on her team prior to Joff's death were: LF (Ned plot), Varys (Getting Ned to confess), Tyrion & LF (the Tyrell marriage), LF (defaming Stannis to counter Stannis' letter), Tywin (the Red Wedding), etc. What plot did Cersei come up with prior to Joff's death that was all her?

[brashcandy]

But all of the bad actions Joffrey takes in the first books stem from not listening to cersei and instead listening to varys/lf. Its varys who convinces joffrey to dismiss barristan (although cersei goes along with it) and its LF who in all likelihood gets ned executed when cersei told joffrey to spare him.

And she certainly never trusted the Tyrells.. and we see how right she was in that.