Would YOU have pushed Bran out the window?

[Hamilton]

I really don't think Jaime was thinking ahead on this. He pushed Bran because he was angry his booty call was interrupted and in his anger acted rashly. As said before Bran could of easily been coerced. It's not like it fixed anything. Pushing Bran just caused more hostility(Tyrion's arrested / Ned's suspicions). Jaime committed high treason and put his family at risk because of sexual pleasures. It is completely abhorrent. Even supposedly 'redeemed' Jaime still hasn't owned up to what he did.

[Medieval Housefly]

One thing that someone said that I really liked is that what if people look back and wish Jamie had killed Bran, because of what he becomes. It can be argued that Jamie might make him evil (if he does become the great other), but it can also be argued that if it was his destiny he would have become evil either way. I like this twist, but don't necessarily subscribe.

[Bourne]

I came up with another option Bourne, see if you can live with that at least. I need to get you off this path of self destruction! :lol:

I appreciate your concern :)

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I enjoyed reading your post, but i have a problem with this part. What about Bran and his dreams of becoming a knight? Jaime took that from him. The issue here is not Jaime's redemption, but Bran's life ruined.

Thank you. And I agree with you that Jaime stole everything from Bran, and that could never be undone or excused. As I said, I am not trying to excuse Jaime's act, just trying to get my head around why he did it and how he could do it. I am not excited to find that I can understand Jaime's decision, because I certainly do not consider myself capable of attempting to murder a child. But then again, I am a suburban housewife and SAHM. I do not have Jaime's background or mentality.

[Karla Rome]

I think that Jaime just decided to take what he considered to be the easiest way out without getting caught. I think his train of thought was, "Shit! He saw us. Eliminate all possibilities of Ned Stark's second son revealing what he saw. SHOVE!"

[headtrip_honey]

I think that Jaime just decided to take what he considered to be the easiest way out without getting caught. I think his train of thought was, "Shit! He saw us. Eliminate all possibilities of Ned Stark's second son revealing what he saw. SHOVE!"

Yeah, pretty much.

I love Jaime, but...dude.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Bourne, honestly this argument is warped. I don't know where to begin...they are more valuable because of their positions? So if Bran had been the son of a peasant instead of the Warden of the North it would be alright to fling him out of a window, because in that case he would be worthless? I am sorry I can't accept this logic.

It really is not about logic, it is about culture. We live in a culture where everyone is theoretically considered equal, and the lives of children are sacrosanct.

The Westerosi did not have these views. It is psychological anachronism, to expect that they would. To them, men are worth more than women, adults are worth more than children. Nobility and royalty are worth more than peasantry, and some noble houses are worth more than others.

Think about the time Robb miserably admitted to his mother that he could not exchange his sisters for Jaime. Even for a 'good guy' like Robb, the absolute distinction is there. Two noble born, preteen girls are not worth as much as the adult brother of the queen. We see it again and again in the series. Joff is applauded (at least by himself) for putting a quarrel through the throat of a man who was annoying him, and certainly no one sits him down to explain the sanctity of human life and how all the gods' children are created equal.

Unfortunately this is a cultural view we have barely managed to get rid of in the US just in the past century, and some would argue we still haven't. A hundred years ago, a white life was worth far more than a black person's. A Carnegie was worth far more than a worker in his mill. A man's opinion (voting) was worth more than a woman's. A teenager can give birth to an infant at her prom, stuff its live body in a trash bag and kill it, and be out of prison a couple years later; but a guy who shoots a cop during a robbery is going to find himself on death row.

Since we so far cannot even get this whole "everyone is equally valuable" concept down in the 21st century (and I did not even begin on other continents like Africa where childen are still enslaved and women undergo forced female circumcision), we can hardly expect a clearly medieval society to have more progressive views than we do. And as I pointed out, it is a SOCIETY/CULTURE thing, not a bad guy/good guy thing. All the characters share the views they have been raised with, which includes a perhaps morally repugnant but still bone-deep system of classification.

[mcb]

There's a lot of people think he's such a bad guy. But the only flaw I see in him is incest (which was not so uncommon in eras such as that, anyway).

Unlike what seems to be the majority of people here, I don't care one bit about incest. Two consenting adults, after all. But Jaime's and Cersei's crime wasn't incest, it was, quite literally, fucking with royal succession. Which in a hereditary absolute monarchy is a big deal. High treason. Coup d'etat, in fact. And that, incidentally, is what lead the realm into civil war a few months later. For half their lives they kept committing the same crime without regard to possible consequences. Sorry, after fifteen-odd years they don't get to play the "responsible/lesser of two evils" card. It's ridiculous.

Pushing Bran, on the other hand, risks a huge shitstorm with the Starks, and actually did set off a chain of events leading to war.. Joff sends assassin after Bran -> Littlefinger blames Tyrion -> Cat has Tyrion arrested -> Tywin looses the Mountain on the Riverlands / Jaime kills a bunch of Ned's men.

Actually, it wasn't essential. Let's assume that Cat didn't capture Tyrion, Tywin didn't loose his dogs on the Riverlands, Jaime didn't have Jory Cassel and his men murdered, etc. Ned still learns about Cersei's kids being bastards, he still confronts Cersei, makes his move, gets arrested, Robb calls the banners, Joff have Ned killed - and we get the same civil war, only pieces on the board stand in slightly different configuration on day one.

[Karla Rome]

On a slightly related note, am I the only one who wonders how the hell it took 15 years for someone to actually catch Cersei and Jaime? I'm not talking about the way Ned, Stannis, and Jon find out; I'm talking about how the first person to actually walk in on the two of them screwing was Bran.

[Bourne]

I was wondering that actually. I've decided Gregor's keep wasn't the only place servants mysteriously disappear...

[Shaggydog Stark]

Which brings us back full circle. I bet they must have killed others who caught them in the act, which means they don't value life! :leer:

[Karla Rome]

Which brings us back full circle. I bet they must have killed others who caught them in the act, which means they don't value life! :leer:

The thing is, I think we have had plenty of opportunities for Jaime or Cersei to think about it. IIRC, they both at some point think about throwing Bran.

And we already know what kind of value Cersei and pre-ASOS Jaime placed on life!

[Ser Tom]

I think this is one of the rare occasions when Cersei's right. They could have scared Bran into keeping quiet but the kingslayer's not one for contemplation.

[Shaggydog Stark]

The thing is, I think we have had plenty of opportunities for Jaime or Cersei to think about it. IIRC, they both at some point think about throwing Bran.

And we already know what kind of value Cersei and pre-ASOS Jaime placed on life!

No not Cersei, strangely, she wanted to frighten him as Ser Tom mentions. It was just Jaime. However, you are right there is a callousness about both characters which makes killing easy, that is what bothers me.

[Karla Rome]

No not Cersei, strangely, she wanted to frighten him as Ser Tom mentions. It was just Jaime. However, you are right there is a callousness about both characters which makes killing easy, that is what bothers me.

But here's the thing: I don't think she had any qualms about killing Bran. I think that she found scaring Bran to be a better solution than him "falling" from the tower because it was less suspicious. It had nothing to do with her holding any value on his life, except for the possibility of somehow making him a pawn for her in the future by him being grateful for not having "fallen" and Jaime "saving" him.

[Oatle]

would I? yup -if only for the stupid hair in the TV series

[Oatle]

actually, strike that I wouldn't have been boffing my sister in the first place

[Shaggydog Stark]

But here's the thing: I don't think she had any qualms about killing Bran. I think that she found scaring Bran to be a better solution than him "falling" from the tower because it was less suspicious. It had nothing to do with her holding any value on his life, except for the possibility of somehow making him a pawn for her in the future by him being grateful for not having "fallen" and Jaime "saving" him.

Oh I don't disagree with you, I don't think she has a conscience. If you look at all three siblings and Tywin, none of them do in varying degrees. The worst one was Tywin, then Cersei, then Jaime and the one with the most was Tyrion. But after ADWD it seems Tyrion and Jaime have switched places.

Anyway, perhaps Cersei's walk of shame has changed her but I doubt it.

[MatthewF]

Another vote for "confuse the child". Better to confuse than to frighten: what incidents do you remember as being confusing when you were seven, as opposed to incidents that were frightening? While most of us have few memories from that age, I bet none of them are about some uninteresting thing you saw one day that you didn't entirely understand.

And to the "but when Bran did understand sex he'd tell people" argument, even if he somehow did remember the event and managed to put two and two together -- which I consider highly unlikely -- who's going to believe this kid's story? "When I was a little boy I think I remember seeing something...."

[Karla Rome]

Oh I don't disagree with you, I don't think she has a conscience. If you look at all three siblings and Tywin, none of them do in varying degrees. The worst one was Tywin, then Cersei, then Jaime and the one with the most was Tyrion. But after ADWD it seems Tyrion and Jaime have switched places.

Anyway, perhaps Cersei's walk of shame has changed her but I doubt it.

I also doubt her "walk of shame" will do anything for her but somehow reaffirm her own beliefs in herself and her own entitlement, but that's a topic for another thread :)

Seriously, what is with the Lannisters and NOT having a conscience? At this point in time in the series, the only one with one is what Brienne is to Jaime.